Honestly unless you want to throw away isk how can you use it as a glass cannon blaster boat?

Imo this ship will be best used as a sniper and the web bonus and drones will be saved for incoming fast tackle. most likely this ship will be out shinned by the other tier 3 BC's becuase if you use this thing as a blaster boat you have 0 survibality if your target survives the first few volleys.

It's a nice looking ship, but with the fittings might look a big heavy at the front.

Imagine yourself tied to the floor completely unable to move. Now imagine me standing over you with a Sledge Hammer. Got that Image yet?

Good now imagine me hitting you with the Hammer over and over again till you are a fine mush.

That's how I am gonna fly this thing and shame on anyone who would use this thing for impure Sniping.

Imagine yourself tied to the floor completely unable to move. Now imagine me standing over you with a Sledge Hammer. Got that Image yet?

Good now imagine me hitting you with the Hammer over and over again till you are a fine mush.

That's how I am gonna fly this thing and shame on anyone who would use this thing for impure Sniping.

Have you tried warpin to zero in a vigilant... deimos or brutix lately ?
You never get a shot off... you are insta jammed.
Death are quick tho.....

without underpants

Like this......

weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

*boom*

aw shiiiit.

It will be fine.... as long it keeps moving backwards....

i would think thats not a problem considering gallente french origin

i would think thats not a problem considering gallente french origin

With nothing but plates, trimarks and resists to make it last 16 seconds in a fight instead of 8 seconds.

I'll be flying it with a semi.

[Talos, Talos fit]

Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Ion Blaster Cannon II
Ion Blaster Cannon II
Ion Blaster Cannon II
Ion Blaster Cannon II
Ion Blaster Cannon II
Ion Blaster Cannon II
Ion Blaster Cannon II

Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive
Stasis Webifier II
Warp Disruptor II
Medium Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800

Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Damage Control II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II

Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I

611 DPS w/o drones, 36.6k EHP vs RF Fusion



[Hurricane, Hurricane fit]

425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Fusion M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Fusion M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Fusion M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Fusion M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Fusion M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Fusion M
Medium Energy Neutralizer II
Medium Energy Neutralizer II

Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive
Warp Disruptor II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II

Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Damage Control II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I


549 DPS w/o drones, 48.9k EHP vs Hybrids


The sad bit is even if your supposed glass cannon (with the current stats and bonuses anyway) starts out at point-blank range against a non-moving target AND manages to apply the full paper dps which is almost never the case, you still haven't got a prayer of beating a nanocane in a point blank fight. And if you start out at anything other than point blank, even if you do manage to get into range you're still going to lose. And if the hurricane chooses the absolute worst possible ammo to use against you, your EHP is about even -- you may eke out a win. Barely. Did I mention the nanocane is faster in this configuration? With better range? Better tracking obviously. And two utility slots, great for anti-frigate defenses like neuts.

Even with a couple years worth of Gallente cruiser+ short range uselessness, CCP still manages to implement what I might even dare say is the worst blaster platform yet. It might find some use in a blob to prevent runners from getting back to the gate, but that's all


TL;DR
New short range blaster boat sucks at short range. Like every other blaster boat larger than a frigate. I'll probably put light neutrons on mine to surprise the frigates thinking Tier 3 bc will be easy kills

Same as all blaster boats, warp to zero, web, destroy.

Not much good for chasing stuff down but thats not really it's job.

1160 dps, 39k ehp, 1332 m/s with MWD, 200m sig radius, can run MWD for 3m 10s, cap stable with MWD off

Whats not to like. Its already borderline OP, giving it more tank would make it unbalanced. There is absolutely no reason not to fit the largest size BS gun on any of the tier 3 BCs, they fit better than they do on most BS.

[Talos, Neutron Blastalos]

Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L

Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive
Warp Scrambler II
Stasis Webifier II
Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed

Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II

Medium Anti-Explosive Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I


Hobgoblin II x5

This

1160 dps, 39k ehp, 1332 m/s with MWD, 200m sig radius, can run MWD for 3m 10s, cap stable with MWD off

Whats not to like. Its already borderline OP, giving it more tank would make it unbalanced. There is absolutely no reason not to fit the largest size BS gun on any of the tier 3 BCs, they fit better than they do on most BS.

[Talos, Neutron Blastalos]

Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L

Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive
Warp Scrambler II
Stasis Webifier II
Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed

Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II

Medium Anti-Explosive Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I


Hobgoblin II x5

[Talos, Neutron Blastalos]

[setup snipped]

2. Generally the term applies to any character class that delivers more attack damage than, yet will nevertheless lose in a 1 vs 1 fight to, some standard garden-variety warrior.

It'll beat a nanocane if you don't waste too much cap chasing it, it doesn't get right on top of you and he never gets a jam, but it still dies in a fire to a drake and any frigate within 2-4km depending on how it's set up.

It is looking to have 30-36k EHP. and a Megathon's DPS. It is safe to say if a Nanocane or a Heavy Missile Drake get snagged in the 90% Web early they will drop much faster then a Talos. As for Frigs the Ships has a 90% Web and a 25m2 Drone Bay. It's base Speed Stats make me light headed, I love everything about this ship.

I hope to god they don't ban this thing or it's cousins from the HQ's.

STARTS at close range are less than 50% against a drake fitted for long range.

1160 dps, 39k ehp, 1332 m/s with MWD, 200m sig radius,
[Talos, Neutron Blastalos]

Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L

Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive
Warp Scrambler II
Stasis Webifier II
Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed

Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II

Medium Anti-Explosive Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I


Hobgoblin II x5

Fly around in it for a bit with lvl 1 BC just to enjoy myself and for kicks.

Show your Work.

We will use this guys fit.



Cept replace the EX Pump with a Trimark and the Tracking Comp with a second Web.

So starting out close range how does a 75k EHP 400 DPS Drake Pull it off.

IIRC, someone ran the numbers a while back and concluded that even at point blank, at blaster optimal range, the tornado will still kill this in a fight. Best to wait until they launch and see what actually happens, but if that's the case, I'll be avoiding it.

[Drake, Drake fit]

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
[Empty High slot]

Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II
Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive /OFFLINE
Warp Disruptor II

Pseudoelectron Containment Field I
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I

I doubt anyone would replace the ex pump with another trimark given how popular canes are (and soon to be tornadoes) so I won't slant the data by changing it.

A lot of great theory crafting for a fit over grid and massively over CPU.

Also way to take into account the Talos small Sig and good Speed when using inaccurate Fury's. The Talos will mitigate Dmg just by orbiting while the Massively over sig'd Drake won't budge.

Thanks I needed that. Sometimes a joke is so bad it is funny.

Hmmm ... To each his own. I think it's silly to toss away 10% of your survivability against the most common PvP weapons system and race. Especially when you're flying something that's best beaten from range where minmatar shine, and their long-range kiting ammo is 83% explosive damage

Theory crafting on an uncommon Drake fit aside the Damage Layout to Barrage is 12 Exp 10 Kin. Barrage is not as common as people think, most Kiters use RF Ammo and TE's the Hurricane can go ether way depending on what range they kite from.

The above fit is exactly what I used. Replacing the tracking computer does nothing. I doubt anyone would replace the ex pump with another trimark given how popular canes are (and soon to be tornadoes) so I won't slant the data by changing it.

[Drake, Drake fit]

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
[Empty High slot]

Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II
Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive /OFFLINE
Warp Disruptor II

Pseudoelectron Containment Field I
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I

462 DPS with Scourge Furies (explosion radius 161 = full damage)
414 DPS with CN Scourge

Overheating both invulns gives 118K EHP vs void L (special case because it's 50/50 kn/th instead of usual 58%/42% of antimatter)

Estimating how long each will last against the other's dps is simple
118,000 / 1106 = ~106 seconds plus whatever recharge provides
39,000 / 462 = ~84 second

106/84 = ~Drake lasts about 26%+ longer than the Talos (orignal 15% estimation was without heat). Technically this means the Talos will always lose but I'm making allowances such as maybe you get a few lucky hits or maybe his skills aren't totally maxed or maybe you've got a few hybrid implants in.

"But wait" you say. "Most drakes I see are packing CN scourge! You're slanting the comparison!" Personally I would choose furies if I knew I would be attacking a close range BC unlikely to have an AB, but fair's fair:

39,000 / 414 = ~94 seconds. The fight's closer now, but the drake still has around a 12% longer expected lifetime plus whatever his passive regen is going to gain him. Not good for a blaster boat's best-case scenario. If you had to chase him any distance to grab him with your webs, you're toast. If he manages to jam you, you're toast. If you get anything less than slightly above average luck with the RNG on your damage rolls, you're toast.

"But wait! I'll overload my blasters! Hah!" Well blasters generate a lot of heat. Even if you manage to run them for the full minute-and-a-half-average it would take to kill a drake:
118,000 / 1220 = ~96 seconds (+ a few seconds to account for recharge)

And then he's likely to overheat his missiles:
39,000 / 487 (CN scourge) = ~80 seconds
39,000 / 544 (scourge fury) = ~71 seconds

His weapons generate more heat than yours do so he might stop overheating at some point making the numbers a tiny bit closer.

I can't speak to the use of a HAM drake, but DPS looks similar with a bit less EHP (101k vs void)

I hope these are put on the test server soon so the problem becomes more obvious. Drake is kind of the gold standard of battlecruisers, and to lose to a long range drake with a short range ship that gets a chance to apply all of its potential dps--and by a large margin-- is ridiculous. I'm partial to a drake nerf than a Talos buff personally


Doesn't look like it. A Tornado that doesn't spend a lot of time kiting will get destroyed by a Talos that manages to catch it. I only get around 31.5K EHP with a cane'ish shield setup vs void. It'll still be popular because it's fast though, although solo it's toast by anything that can catch it

Err .. What's a 'common' heavy missile PvP drake if mine doesn't count? And yes, a Kiting cane had better be using barrage unless you really, really don't want to be hitting them with exp/kin. At 24km with two TE's, it's the difference beteween dealing 300 DPS (Barrage) and 200 DPS (RF anything). A cynabal might go either way because it gets the falloff bonus so it has the flexibility to do so. The tornado will, too

http://i549.photobucket.com/albums/ii371/Trigsby/cane_rf_barrage.png

Err .. What's a 'common' heavy missile PvP drake if mine doesn't count? And yes, a Kiting cane had better be using barrage unless you really, really don't want to be hitting them with exp/kin. At 24km with two TE's, it's the difference beteween dealing 300 DPS (Barrage) and 200 DPS (RF anything). A cynabal might go either way because it gets the falloff bonus so it has the flexibility to do so. The tornado will, too

http://i549.photobucket.com/albums/ii371/Trigsby/cane_rf_barrage.png

Yeah dude uncommon fit, that looks closer to a bait fit or null drake blob fit that a a small gang.
...

No a Talos wouldn't be a good match for a long range drake, but then NOTHING with blasters is really good at range....it has ******* blasters no **** it's not going to do well again a brick tank drake that has a 50km head start, you know that when you undock the thing.

First statement: everybody is saying this but nobody will provide a fit and the one I used is more or less the most common I see.

Second statement: we're not talking about fighting a long range drake at range. We're talking about you landing near the drake within blaster optimal, snagging him, tearing into him with your blasters while he sits there taking it to the face without using his drones and still having a high probability of losing anyway. And that's with picture- and skill- perfect EFT blaster DPS numbers.

Yeah who cares, I wouldn't have that ship out solo anyway, blaster ships with no tank are generally a poor choice for hero assualts.

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=14434861
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=14520951
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=14470365
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=14434861

That is over that last couple weeks.

I wouldn't chase that fight anyway, and if you warped in on me with that fit I'd be elsewhere LONG before you got a KM out of if. Cook mids, align to something convient and bone out, and you would have no way to stop it.

Also are those numbers for the proposed hybrid turret upgrades or current ones?

Well, blasters are poop in a fleet compared to anything that can reliably hit 25km'ish without moving much. And if they're not going to be good for get-in-gank-it-get-out-before-they-land PvP, what's left? Your low EHP and low gtfo ability are going to result in you being primary in most small pvp engagements. You'd last 30 seconds against 3 drakes for instance. If you started out decloaking on them with your fleet, half of that time is going to be spent mwd'ing 15km and the other half with your hull on fire.

Heavy missile nano drake with TWO WEBS? Right, because more than one (if that) is going to help
Two HAM drakes. HAMs are pretty terrible already, I can't remember the last time I encountered one
And a fleet fitting with a sensor booster and passive amp?

I'm not sure those are great examples of well-thought-out heavy missile long range setups personally

Drake wouldn't land right on top of you unless they're extremely stupid so that doesn't make sense from a Talos' perspective, yet the Drake certainly won't be going anywhere with a scram and 90% web on it so the Drake perspective doesn't make sense either

Gonna fly it as a salvager.

Haters gonna hate.

Assume:

Basic Talos fit (8x neutrons with Void, trimarks, DC, 2x MFS and EAMM, with hobgoblins)
Implant-less HAM Drake (6x HAM, 1x HM with Rage/Fury, 3x BCS, MWD, web, scram, CDFEs, hobgoblins)
Basic shield Cane (425s, dual med neut, LSE and Inv, 3x gyor, 2x TE, warriors)
Tornado 8x 800s with Hail, dual LSE, Invuln, DC, 3x gyro, CDFEs.

Overloaded Invulns but not weapons (not much difference, can't be arsed to redo damage types manually)
Ignore tracking but assume that fight starts at blaster optimal

Talos vs. HAM Drake
Talos: 42.6k EHP, receiving 660 DPS, time-to-die is 64.5 s
Drake: 96.4k EHP, receiving 1160 DPS, time-to-die is 83.1 s
Conclusion: HAM Drake comfortably beats Talos at Talos's optimal

Talos vs. shield Cane
Talos: 36.6k EHP, receiving 769 DPS, time-to-die is 47.6 s
Cane: 54.1k EHP, receiving 1160 DPS, time-to-die is 46.6 s
Conclusion: If the fight doesn't start at blaster optimal, the Talos will lose.

Talos vs. Tornado
Talos: 36.7k EHP, receiving 980 DPS, time-to-die is 37.4 s
Tornado: 47.1k EHP, receiving 1160 DPS, time-to-die is 40.6 s
Conclusion: Tornado beats Talos even at Talos's optimal

You can object to the three gyros on the Tornado, it would probably have drop one for a TE, and maybe a LSE/CDFE for another falloff mod/rig. But if you so choose, you can fit up a Tornado so that it kicks a Talos's face in even if the fight starts at the Talos's optimal. Similarly, the basic HAM Drake will also kill it. I know that HAM Drakes are unfavoured these days, but that's because they're slow, short-range platforms... but so is the Talos.

The worst thing, though, is the way that a basic shield Hurricane will kill the Talos if it can apply basically any DPS to the Talos before blaster optimal is reached. So the 90% web may look sexy and be fun in camps, but it'll be Hurricanes Online still.

How about instead of a web speed bonus, give it a web RANGE bonus. Problem with blaster boats isnt damage, its getting in range to apply it...

No, no and hell no.

Care to explain your obviously detailed reasoning? What would be bad about a 25k + web? With the Talos new accelaratin, could catch and hold more targets...

Just curious why you had such a visceral reaction there...

The reasoning behind the web bonus to speed is that hybrids cannot hit stuff in their designated engagement rang - 4-10km (lol). Even if you did have a long range bonus you'd still be unable to hit stuff that's 20-30 out(okay you might hit it but past your falloff so not really hard).

Besides web range has always been minmatar bonus and has nothing to do with gallente, or gallente tactics (which is to get to kissing distance and make out with hot antimatter).

I really dotn think these ships will be the best at solo work, so normaly you would get a faster ship to get the initial tackle to slow them long enough to get your talos in range.

I personaly once the true stats are releasted will probialy eft a super bait Talos, with 2 1600 plates, 2 webs a long point, maybe a AB, ecm drones, and hopefuly 8 med electron blasters... yeah go ahead and primary the glass cannon

Fit a mega in EFT - with AM neutrons give you 4.5+13(17 is well within a boosted fed navy web), void is 6.8+6.3.

I know what you'll say - fit TE's.

Hell I know one of the popular ships for incursions is a shield vindi with 3 TE , 3 MFS which gives you AM range of 6.4 +24.
In pvp however most pilots fit MFS rather than TE.

Besides web range has always been minmatar bonus and has nothing to do with gallente, or gallente tactics (which is to get to kissing distance and make out with hot antimatter).

I need to be able to win a 1v1, or even 1v2, 1v3 for a ship to be worth my while. Because that's what 90% of the fights I get are, and this ship would have a 90% loss rate with those odds

lol, you are a funny one.

How so? Most players are going to run for it in a 1v1 even fight, anything you can do to make an engagement more likely (such as perception of superior ships/numbers) can slide a 30% chance 1 bc engages you to a 90% chance 2bc or 1bc + support will. I'm not necessarily talking vs multiple bc either, just multiple enemy players

Honestly unless you want to throw away isk how can you use it as a glass cannon blaster boat?

The Talos(and possibly Naga) will be incredibly good at one activity.

Ship spinning without undocking them.