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Aliventi
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
422
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Posted - 2013.08.31 01:03:00 -
[1] - Quote
All,
Many of you know I am one of the biggest proponents to keep ECM as it is unless a non-chance based, balanced and effective alternative come up. I think today may be the day... If not back to the drawing board.
We need to lay some ground rules for this discussion. What I am going to do shortly is propose a solution to fix some of the more annoying aspects of ECM. Before that can happen and so this discussion can be successful we need to assume/agree on certain things: First off: There is nothing wrong with ECM currently. This isn't up for discussion. It is fair, balanced, and most certainly not OP. Again, this is not up for discussion. For this idea to work we need to agree to this. If you don't believe me take a look at some numbers: Link Next: There is a distinction between ECM and a ECM fit Falcon. ECM is base module that is rarely seen outside of an ECM bonused ship. A falcon is one of the most common ECM bonused ships in use. For this discussion we will talk about both separately.
Alright: y'all ready?
So if ECM has nothing wrong with it why would I propose changing it at all? The answer to that one is there are a lot of things that factor in to ECM that are at best... annoying. So what I am trying to do is propose a solution that improves ECM in several ways to reduce/remove these annoyances and bring ECM more in line with the other forms of EWAR.
So how does ECM differ from Sensor Damps or Tracking disruptors currently? Let's see: ECM has four modules to do while SDs and TDs only have one. ex: there are 4 racial jammers, but no racial SDs or TDs. ECM does not have scripts. SDs and TDs do. ECM has signal distortion amplifiers that buff jam strength. SDs and TDs do not. ECM has a chance to hit and a non-trivial chance to miss. SDs and TDs always hit.
So what kind of solution am I proposing? Here is the goal of the solution: non-chance based, balanced, and effective. The issue plaguing ECM up until now was there was no granularity in its effect. When a TD hits it takes away a percentage of the targets tracking or optimal range. When it came to ECM you couldn't really subtract 4/5ths of a target. So instead of ECM jamming your targets away for 20 seconds what if ECM jammed away your targets for a variable amount of time depending on the quality of your ships sensors?
What are the details of the change? First: ECM mods become non-racial. One mod does all the jamming. Now to gain back that racial bonus they have racial scripts. Next: Remove Signal distortion amps. SDs and TDs don't have them and ECM won't need them. Then: Buff the ECM module, while simultaneously nerfing the Falcon's ECM strength bonus to half of its current strength. And then: Change ECM cycle time to 25 or 30 seconds. Finally: ECM loses its chance based hit. SDs and TD never miss so ECM shouldn't either.
So the new equation for how long you are jammed is (ECM mod jam strength)*(ECM mod jam strength/the ships sensor strength). Again ECM will never miss. So we can't have it be jamming you for 20 seconds guaranteed. This change is designed to shift the penalty from being jammed away from being unable to lock and more towards the lock time of your ships + a proportional jam time. This combined with extension of the ECM mod cycle time will mean even a frigate will have a few seconds of being able to do something before the next cycle.
So I did a quick google docs for you all to see the math behind this. Hopefully it can give you an idea of the effectiveness of the changes: Link
Now why would a falcon pilot want this change to go through despite the nerf to the jam time? I am a falcon pilot. These changes will benefit falcons pilots everywhere. First you don't have to fit one of each racial mod to be effective anymore. This means you can fit an actual tank. Next, you will always hit. No more chance game. The penalty for having no more chance game is that you take a hit in effectiveness. So you can stay on field and you are guaranteed to be effective. That is a pretty sweet deal.
Now why would I want these changes to go through if I am going against a Falcon pilot? You are only jammed proportionally to your ships sensor strength. No more being jammed in a BS then dealing with another 10+ seconds of lock time. You get knock out of the fight for a few seconds and then you can rejoin. Yes, it will happen more frequently, but it is a less devastating effect. And even a frigate pilot will have a few seconds to lock and attack every cycle which means no more permajam. Who wouldn't like that to go away?
Why is the ECM mod being buffed while the falcon isn't being nerfed according to your numbers? I want the ECM mod to be like a TP, SD, or TD: It is effective even on an unbonused ship. Now, it isn't Falcon effective but it still makes an impact on the battlefield.
Your numbers seem kinda weak. 7 second jam time on tempest isn't very effective...? Remember, with the guaranteed jam they are going to have to lock the target a lot more. It averages out nicely and is kind of intuitive. A BS should have better sensors so it should have less time jammed than a far less sensor filled rifter. This means a rifter is jammed longer, but can lock quicker while a tempest is jammed for less time but has a longer lock time.
Alright, what now? Do not get caught up on the numbers. They are more to illustrate how it would work. CCP will balance the numbers to make things fair. Instead talk about the mechanics and mod changes. Should ECM be changed this way? Does this do a sufficient job reworking ECM? "tbh most people don't care about removing local from highsec. They want it gone from nullsec. I want to be able to solo roam hunt without everyone knowing I am there without them actually seeing me jump through the gate. Effortless intel is bad." ~Me |

Gigan Amilupar
Legion of Darkwind Catastrophic Uprising
2
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Posted - 2013.08.31 01:24:00 -
[2] - Quote
An interesting thought. I am far from an expert on ECM but despite my ignorance I can't help but feel that changing the system from one of random chance with potentially overpowered turnouts (i.e. perma-jamming) to one of constant effect of varying degrees seems like a good idea. I would, however, but concerned about such a method being used for target breaking. If two ships are facing off then a jammer is all that would be required for one ship to escape from the fight, as it could align, jam and jump. This could be further abused by covert ops ships to reacquire cloak, and as a result I would be worried for the state of solo PvP. Or am I missing something?
+1 for well constructed post though. |

Caliph Muhammed
Perkone Caldari State
424
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 01:26:00 -
[3] - Quote
I have friends often try and sell me on racial jammers. I stick with multispectrals. So knowing that, I like ECM as is. I gain nothing by losing racial jammers as I have no need for them.
ECM ships have reduced combat capabilities as far as damage goes. They have no real tank outside of the jamming unless they opt to give up even more damage/tank from low slot use.
As a caldari pilot I speak on behalf of the falcon in particular. Shield slots are ecm slots and dps slots are armor tanking slots. |

RubyPorto
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
4018
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 05:33:00 -
[4] - Quote
So, automatic target breaking. So with 7 modules, I can guarantee at least 14 seconds of the enemy not locking anything. More if they're not infinite sensor strength, 2800+ scan res Lokis (1 second jammed, 1 second locking). If either aspect goes up past 1 second, that's 21 seconds. If both go past one second (which isn't, you know, unlikely), that's 28 seconds and you're off to the races with automatic permajamming.
...I'm gonna say that's probably bad. "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
d-£-󦦦º-ó-ꦪ¦¦e¦¦-í-ë-í-󦦦+¦¦¦»-ö¦+b-¥¦º¦¦¦¦¦½¦¦-ö-ëa-Ŧ+-¥¦í¦+-à-à¦ñc¦ó-á¦í-ƒ¦«¦½¦Ö¦¦¦á-ò-çl-Ǧ¢-ü¦+-û¦ƒ¦¦-ô-ë-Ö-ô¦Ñ-ô¦¬¦½e¦+¦¿¦ù¦¦¦ÿ¦ù¦Ñ¦¼-ò-ꦽ¦¦¦+¦+-ö¦¦-à¦á¦ú¦ÿ |

Johnson Oramara
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
106
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 07:52:00 -
[5] - Quote
So currently when you get jammed your max locked targets drop to 0, which for the victim feels always very frustrating and annoying not being able to do anything. That feeling of being ripped off of your own ships ability to target is what annoys the most.
So what if the jamming just affected your ships sensor strength? It initially breaks all the targets (or not?) and then causes your locking time to grow up to 10x. This would affect differently from the current ecm mechanics and not cause nearly as much frustration and annoyance and still accomplish almost same job. Of course various attributes would need to get play tested and fine tuned for it to remain balanced with the other forms of ewar. |

Tarn Kugisa
Infinite Covenant Tribal Band
439
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 11:10:00 -
[6] - Quote
this makes a lot more sense then the current system
tl;dr instead of being jammed for a flat 20 seconds it's dependent on your ship's sensor stength this means it's harder to jam a carrier for any length of time because of it's gigantic sensor strength, but ECM would still break target locks, making the carrier useless for a good 15+ seconds while it re-acquires it's locks I Endorse this Product and/or Service EVE Online Battle Recorder When I press F1 I get ISK |

Swiftstrike1
Interfector INC. Fade 2 Black
195
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 11:37:00 -
[7] - Quote
- Your entire post can be summarised in 1 sentence: "target is always jammed, just not for the entire cycle". That's hardly a new idea.
- Someone has already pointed out that this makes perma-jamming much easier by simply staggering the activation of the ECM modules.
- You started by saying that there's nothing wrong with ECM, but then went on to list a bunch of problems. Make your mind up.
Sorry for being so negative, but I don't think this would be a good change. Personally I would prefer to see ECM reduced to a lock breaking effect that always hits once every X seconds, where X is determined by the ratio of jam to sensor strength. It would be weak as **** on it's own, but very strong when supported by sensor damps (which are just ecm by another name in my opinion).
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Caleb Seremshur
Angel of War
60
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 12:13:00 -
[8] - Quote
Make ecm break locks by De locking targets? a sample formula could be like
unlocking time = 1-(target sensor strength/jammer strength) +ù target scan res
therefore a tempest with 21 ladar getting jammed by a falcon using multis works out like 1-(21/9.8)+ù110 = -223 scan res.
that formula would require massive tweaking but as an example the jamming ship unlocks the victims targets at a rate based on his sensor strength. reworking the formula to produce a situation where really high sensor strengths make the delocking process drag out.
also where under certain fringe circumstances that the target cannot be ecm'd because his sensors are simply too strong relative to the jammers comong in Read my thread here for my thoughts on eve economy https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=263968&find=unread --- Mining in game, from the perspective of an IRL miner. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3503687&#post3503687 ----á for FW rebalance in 2013 |

Baron Altin
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 12:36:00 -
[9] - Quote
The problem is that this would be very OP for non-ecm ships as a way to break points/scrams.
I like the idea but I just hate the thought of some kiting ship that I catch in scram range jamming me even for a second in order to activate MWD again and either escape of reestablish range control. Evena short range ship could use it to great effect just as an escape tool.
Heck, with this, what would even be the point of core stabilizers.
one way to solve this (in keeping with original idea) might be to have something like 'residual jamming' where if a point is released/broken by ecm, it stays in effect for another short while.
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Caleb Seremshur
Angel of War
60
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 12:43:00 -
[10] - Quote
changing the cycle time on ecm will also be important too. making the cycle shorter rather than longer will mean that if the target cant be De locked completely in one cycle from one jammer then it will never be jammed out at all.
eg a carrier with 90 sensor
1-(90/9.8) x100+1000= 82 negative scan res at which point a 10 second jamming cycle wont be enough to unlock a frigate and barely enough for a battleship. More tweaking is still required and o expect it to be quite complex Read my thread here for my thoughts on eve economy https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=263968&find=unread --- Mining in game, from the perspective of an IRL miner. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3503687&#post3503687 ----á for FW rebalance in 2013 |
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Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
91
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:33:00 -
[11] - Quote
ECM should not jam lock on as whole but simply reduce the amount of locks are possible.
Lets say
T1 ECM, reduce between 1-5 lock ons T2 ECM, between 2-6 Faction, 3-6 Officer/Wh, 4-7
Still Chance based on Sensor strength.
So you need more Moduls and lose more Slots if you want to be sure. |

Caleb Seremshur
Angel of War Game 0f Tears
60
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:38:00 -
[12] - Quote
I totally disagree. Ecm degrading locks through coherency is much more sensible than reducing total locks outright. Read my thread here for my thoughts on eve economy https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=263968&find=unread --- Mining in game, from the perspective of an IRL miner. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3503687&#post3503687 ----á for FW rebalance in 2013 |

Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
91
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:45:00 -
[13] - Quote
Why? Using 2 Moduls with a Falcon is likely 100% jammed, maybe even permajammed. Which my Idea needs 2-3 Moduls for the same result but isnt anymore failproof like the current state. |

Aliventi
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
423
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 15:36:00 -
[14] - Quote
Awesome. There is some great feedback here.
RubyPorto wrote:So, automatic target breaking. So with 7 modules, I can guarantee at least 14 seconds of the enemy not locking anything. More if they're not infinite sensor strength, 2800+ scan res Lokis (1 second jammed, 1 second locking). If either aspect goes up past 1 second, that's 21 seconds. If both go past one second (which isn't, you know, unlikely), that's 28 seconds and you're off to the races with automatic permajamming.
...I'm gonna say that's probably bad. I am going to argue that this is not very different than 7 SDs or 7 TD hitting a single ship. If you TD a hurricane 7 times it's not going to track very well. If you SD a hurricane 7 times it's not going to lock very well. If you are using 7 ECM mods to attempt to perma jam a single target I am very fine with that. IMO there are better uses for 7 ECM mods than to jam a single target even in a small gang fight.
Caleb Seremshur wrote:Make ecm break locks by De locking targets? a sample formula could be like
unlocking time = 1-(target sensor strength/jammer strength) +ù target scan res
therefore a tempest with 21 ladar getting jammed by a falcon using multis works out like 1-(21/9.8)+ù110 = -223 scan res.
that formula would require massive tweaking but as an example the jamming ship unlocks the victims targets at a rate based on his sensor strength. reworking the formula to produce a situation where really high sensor strengths make the delocking process drag out.
also where under certain fringe circumstances that the target cannot be ecm'd because his sensors are simply too strong relative to the jammers comong in I don't want to start playing with scan res. I know it is tempting, but scan res should only be modified by sensor dams and sebos. As far as delocking goes it isn't guaranteed to be effective. If you are trying to ECM-declock a frigate it will be delocked quickly and able to relock quickly. If try to delock a BS or a carrier it may not be delocked before the target dies which means your mod had 0 effect. Then people will start throwing on one or more ECCM to try to ensure the ECM mod has no effect. The end all be all is if the mod isn't guaranteed to be effective people won't use it. And before someone argues it ECM now is a guaranteed effect despite being chance based because if you ECM an infinite number of times it is no longer chance based but only effective a certain percentage of the time. Think of an infinite geometric series where the ratio is less than one.
Baron Altin wrote:The problem is that this would be very OP for non-ecm ships as a way to break points/scrams.
I like the idea but I just hate the thought of some kiting ship that I catch in scram range jamming me even for a second in order to activate MWD again and either escape of reestablish range control. Evena short range ship could use it to great effect just as an escape tool.
Heck, with this, what would even be the point of core stabilizers.
one way to solve this (in keeping with original idea) might be to have something like 'residual jamming' where if a point is released/broken by ecm, it stays in effect for another short while.
That is a very good point. And tbh idk how that problem would be solved. IIRC if you are pointing a target and are jammed then the point lasts until the point's cycle ends. I don't like the residual point because it makes the ECM mod ineffective. I would go for lengthening the cycle time but then you can't quickly point different targets. Another take on the issue is what are they losing to gain that ECM mod? Especially in kiting ships you don't have a lot of spare slots. It come down to choices. Should the ECM mod be that powerful because they made the choice to bring it along instead of another hardener or a web? It also shows that the design is working because ECM is fit to an unbonused ship which is something you would almost never see on TQ now. TDs and SD are fit fairly often to unbonused ships now.
Lephia DeGrande wrote:ECM should not jam lock on as whole but simply reduce the amount of locks are possible.
Lets say
T1 ECM, reduce between 1-5 lock ons T2 ECM, between 2-6 Faction, 3-6 Officer/Wh, 4-7
Still Chance based on Sensor strength.
So you need more Moduls and lose more Slots if you want to be sure. First off chance-based solutions are bad. Second, it isn't guaranteed to be effective because either you can lock the primary and still do stuff (near 0 effectiveness) or you can't lock. And a guaranteed perma-jam with enough ECM mods isn't balanced at all. So it is a bad solution all around. "tbh most people don't care about removing local from highsec. They want it gone from nullsec. I want to be able to solo roam hunt without everyone knowing I am there without them actually seeing me jump through the gate. Effortless intel is bad." ~Me |

RubyPorto
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
4020
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 16:57:00 -
[15] - Quote
Aliventi wrote:RubyPorto wrote:So, automatic target breaking. So with 7 modules, I can guarantee at least 14 seconds of the enemy not locking anything. More if they're not infinite sensor strength, 2800+ scan res Lokis (1 second jammed, 1 second locking). If either aspect goes up past 1 second, that's 21 seconds. If both go past one second (which isn't, you know, unlikely), that's 28 seconds and you're off to the races with automatic permajamming.
...I'm gonna say that's probably bad. I am going to argue that this is not very different than 7 SDs or 7 TD hitting a single ship. If you TD a hurricane 7 times it's not going to track very well. If you SD a hurricane 7 times it's not going to lock very well. If you are using 7 ECM mods to attempt to perma jam a single target I am very fine with that. IMO there are better uses for 7 ECM mods than to jam a single target even in a small gang fight.
The problem is that that was assuming the target is an instalocking loki with infinite sensor strength or something close to it. If you want to totally incapacitate a standard Scimi (which has an ECCM), lets assume a base Jam strength of 15, you get Jam Length 6 seconds (5.62, but EVE rounds up) Relocking time on a Cruiser 3 seconds (2.6 but again EVE rounds up)
So 3 Jams keeps the Scimi guaranteed permanently jammed. So each falcon incapacitates 2 Logi and has a spare Jammer for breaking tackle on itself (which, by the way, is another reason why guaranteed jams are bad. Initial tackle will never hold again.) "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
d-£-󦦦º-ó-ꦪ¦¦e¦¦-í-ë-í-󦦦+¦¦¦»-ö¦+b-¥¦º¦¦¦¦¦½¦¦-ö-ëa-Ŧ+-¥¦í¦+-à-à¦ñc¦ó-á¦í-ƒ¦«¦½¦Ö¦¦¦á-ò-çl-Ǧ¢-ü¦+-û¦ƒ¦¦-ô-ë-Ö-ô¦Ñ-ô¦¬¦½e¦+¦¿¦ù¦¦¦ÿ¦ù¦Ñ¦¼-ò-ꦽ¦¦¦+¦+-ö¦¦-à¦á¦ú¦ÿ |

Aliventi
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
423
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 18:37:00 -
[16] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote: The problem is that that was assuming the target is an instalocking loki with infinite sensor strength or something close to it. If you want to totally incapacitate a standard Scimi (which has an ECCM), lets assume a base Jam strength of 15, you get Jam Length 6 seconds (5.62, but EVE rounds up) Relocking time on a Cruiser 3 seconds (2.6 but again EVE rounds up)
So 3 Jams keeps the Scimi guaranteed permanently jammed. So each falcon incapacitates 2 Logi and has a spare Jammer for breaking tackle on itself (which, by the way, is another reason why guaranteed jams are bad. Initial tackle will never hold again.)
I added a Scimi + 1 ECCM mod to the spreadsheet: Relink Perfect Scimi + 1 ECCM Vs. Perfect Falcon is 3.79 or 4 seconds of jam time + the 3 seconds lock time. So that is 25/7 = 3.57. So you will need 4 nearly-perfectly cycled ECM mods to perma jam a scimi. 4+ jams is a thinly tanked falcon which means you can do what you do now and force it from the field fairly easily through DPS or jam and damp it down to where it is ineffective. A single falcon is not going to be solo perma-jamming multiple scimis. It may make life a painful for one or more but that is what a specialized ship that takes months to train in to is supposed to do.
As far as initial tackle holding, it is an issue, but I don't think it will be as big of a problem as some people will bring up. Anytime you choose to fit an ECM mod to a non-bonused ship you are sacrificing something else. That could be a AB to dual prop, a cap booster, or a web, or another shield extender or hardener, etc. You have to decide whether or not that is worth it for its limited use. At best you will have 3+lock time of the frigate seconds to get out of there if you jam a frigate in an unbonused ship. And that isn't going to help much if you are pointed by multiple ships or bubbed. I see this new version of ECM bringing in a new fitting choice. Some people will choose to fit it. Others will decide to fit something else they deem more useful.
Also, CCP in their rebalancing can buff frigate sensor strength just as much as they can change ECM base jam strength. The frigate numbers do seem somewhat of an outlier. This will help narrow the chance of a ship getting away. "tbh most people don't care about removing local from highsec. They want it gone from nullsec. I want to be able to solo roam hunt without everyone knowing I am there without them actually seeing me jump through the gate. Effortless intel is bad." ~Me |

Aliventi
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
424
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 16:46:00 -
[17] - Quote
Bump. Still looking for more feedback. "tbh most people don't care about removing local from highsec. They want it gone from nullsec. I want to be able to solo roam hunt without everyone knowing I am there without them actually seeing me jump through the gate. Effortless intel is bad." ~Me |

Baron Altin
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 19:20:00 -
[18] - Quote
Aliventi wrote:Baron Altin wrote:The problem is that this would be very OP for non-ecm ships as a way to break points/scrams.
I like the idea but I just hate the thought of some kiting ship that I catch in scram range jamming me even for a second in order to activate MWD again and either escape of reestablish range control. Evena short range ship could use it to great effect just as an escape tool.
Heck, with this, what would even be the point of core stabilizers.
one way to solve this (in keeping with original idea) might be to have something like 'residual jamming' where if a point is released/broken by ecm, it stays in effect for another short while.
That is a very good point. And tbh idk how that problem would be solved. IIRC if you are pointing a target and are jammed then the point lasts until the point's cycle ends. I don't like the residual point because it makes the ECM mod ineffective. I would go for lengthening the cycle time but then you can't quickly point different targets. Another take on the issue is what are they losing to gain that ECM mod? Especially in kiting ships you don't have a lot of spare slots. It come down to choices. Should the ECM mod be that powerful because they made the choice to bring it along instead of another hardener or a web? It also shows that the design is working because ECM is fit to an unbonused ship which is something you would almost never see on TQ now. TDs and SD are fit fairly often to unbonused ships now.
I agree that one of the flaws of ecm is evident in the fact that it is NEVER properly used on an unbonused hull, but still, even a module that broke locks for no amount of time at all would be insanely broken and would be an easy decision for pretty much every kiter/hauler in the game and god knows what else.
You could time it so easily to escape anything that you wanted. Just align to where you want, get up to speed then JAM, insta-warp. One module better than 10 core stabilizers in some instances.
having a (say) 10 second residual point would not make ecm ineffective since it would still stop all sorts of things like guns, other ecm, and neuting.
But with your ecm proposal I can imagine a few dream fits where I'd basically have no chance of losing a 1v1 ever. Dramiel with one of these would pretty much be the most frustrating ship you could ever fight. Any condor with 3 Light missile launchers, MWD, Long point and this...
Really any ship at all with more than 2 midslots would make this mod an easy choice. And it would make pvp a very frustrating experience since so many ships would just escape anytime you caught them in scram or were killing them
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Alticus C Bear
University of Caille Gallente Federation
171
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 19:52:00 -
[19] - Quote
You propose an interesting base mechanic change.
However as other posters have pointed out the on off nature of ECM creates a problem with instant easy target breaking.
I could see this working if ECM was changed to disabling all high slot modules rather than breaking lock. This allows the weapons/RR disruption to take place without disabling midslot E-War.
It would affect your calculations based around ships relocking though.
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Aliventi
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
425
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 18:47:00 -
[20] - Quote
Alright.... I don't particularly like the residual point effect. However, with some jam strength and sensor strength rebalancing I think the math would work. The residual point would have to be long enough that a frigate could reestablish the point from an unbonused jam, but not long enough that a skilled Blackbird/falcon pilot couldn't get away even from a frigate. I know that seems outwardly unfair, but jamming is virtually the only defense a falcon/blackbird has for dealing with a frigate trying to point it. Thoughts? "tbh most people don't care about removing local from highsec. They want it gone from nullsec. I want to be able to solo roam hunt without everyone knowing I am there without them actually seeing me jump through the gate. Effortless intel is bad." ~Me |
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Arch Stanton's Neighbour
Forceful Resource Acquisition Inc
71
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 19:02:00 -
[21] - Quote
Hi, how about this solution:
Turn all ewar modules and drones (ecm, td, damp) into the equivalent mineral amount. |

Sigras
Conglomo
522
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 20:27:00 -
[22] - Quote
There are a few problems with your comparisons.
Jamming is unlike any other ewar in existence for a few reasons:
- There is nothing I can do to mitigate its effects; with TDs i can determine what script youre using and either close range or modify my flying to reduce transversal. with SDs i can just close range to make them less effective.
- Jamming is much more effective against smaller targets, other forms of ewar are less effective for practical applications. EG TDs only effect small ships against ships their own size, frigates can usually still hit a larger ship despite disruption, also frigates generally have to be close anyway, so range is usually less of an issue.
- The "counter mod" for Jamming has no other application; you would never fit it if you werent expecting jamming, but sensor boosters decrease lock time and tracking computers/enhancers are widely used.
All of these things are not addressed by your fix however I do like the idea of removing the randomness because randomness in a competitive game is universally bad |

Aliventi
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
425
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 23:42:00 -
[23] - Quote
Sigras wrote:There are a few problems with your comparisons. Jamming is unlike any other ewar in existence for a few reasons:
- There is nothing I can do to mitigate its effects; with TDs i can determine what script youre using and either close range or modify my flying to reduce transversal. with SDs i can just close range to make them less effective.
- Jamming is much more effective against smaller targets, other forms of ewar are less effective for practical applications. EG TDs only effect small ships against ships their own size, frigates can usually still hit a larger ship despite disruption, also frigates generally have to be close anyway, so range is usually less of an issue.
- The "counter mod" for Jamming has no other application; you would never fit it if you werent expecting jamming, but sensor boosters decrease lock time and tracking computers/enhancers are widely used.
All of these things are not addressed by your fix however I do like the idea of removing the randomness because randomness in a competitive game is universally bad The entire desire to make the cycle time of the ECM mod longer than the time you would be jammed is to give you the opportunity to counter the ship for those seconds you are unjammed. It isn't an unlimited amount of time, but with the right balancing touch I think you will find it effective. The ECM change doesn't penalize frigate more than BS. I know the numbers show that the time jammed is significantly longer for a frigate than a BS. However a BS takes far longer to lock than a frigate. So I think you will find it averages out nicely and may even favor the frigate in certain situations. Why does ECCM need a another effect? There is no mod to counter TPs. There could be no ECCM at all. Also it comes down to choices: if you think an ECCM is worth fitting than fit it. If not then don't. The ECCM mod is fine right now. Many pilot already choose to fit an ECCM which shows that it they clearly don't need another incentive to fit it. "tbh most people don't care about removing local from highsec. They want it gone from nullsec. I want to be able to solo roam hunt without everyone knowing I am there without them actually seeing me jump through the gate. Effortless intel is bad." ~Me |

Trii Seo
Sabotage Incorporated Executive Outcomes
94
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 05:31:00 -
[24] - Quote
One thing commonly overlooked is what ships will jam, td and sd you.
SD bonused: Celestis, Arazu, Lachesis. All of them can be quite meaty and will easily survive a few hits. TD bonused: Arbitrator, Curse, Pilgrim. Once more - Arby and Pilgrim can have surprisingly mean tanks and unless you're missile/projectile fitted it's likely you're not firing back at a Curse anyway. (Or, for the matter, at a Pilgrim if you let it get too close). They also have means of fighting back - drone based damage.
And last, ECM Boats: Falcon, Blackbird, Rook. Barring the rook, they're paperthin. Due to their ability to lock ships down with ECM (and with the proposed mechanic it's no longer 'probable' jam, it's definite jam) they're often primary targets in fights and if someone can keep lock long enough they're probably dead.
ECM boats also don't really have a way of fighting any attacker, short of jamming him and legging it from the fight. Given the jam being chance-based, it's a gamble - with this proposal, breaking points would become trivial. So would be breaking logi chains.
(It's also worth noting that ECM doesn't scale that well with numbers, best shown with the recent shift to dampening fleets from ECM support.)
So... overall the idea is not that great, given the guaranteed lock-break would make jamming itself insanely overpowered on unbonused ships (Hauler under attack? Align, ECM, leg it. Fight going wrong? Align, ECM, leg it - there is no chance to miss the jam. It'll always force the enemy to relock. Especially with the idea of scripted ECM.) and either make bonused ones extinct (if jams aren't staggered you'll be blasted off the field in those ten-fifteen seconds it takes the jammer to cycle) or even worse than today (unavoidable perma-jamming) Is it Hotdrop O'Clock yet? |

Milton Middleson
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
338
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 06:39:00 -
[25] - Quote
Quote:Falcon, Blackbird, Rook. Barring the rook, they're paperthin.
People say this a lot, and it's not right (well, I'll give you the Blackbird). The Rook is not that much tougher than the Falcon - assuming you choose to actually fit a real tank on your ECM ship - and both are capable of fitting a tank on par with other recons without crippling their function as an electronic warfare platform. They're 'paper thin' because people have a nasty habit of fitting a feeble armor tank or just completely omitting buffer in order to maximize jamming ability. (And because people hate ECM, which makes them a bullet magnet).
It's a bit of a tangent, but Caldari recons' supposed lack of durability gets cited a lot in discussions of ECM, and it's just not the case. |

Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
354
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 07:03:00 -
[26] - Quote
It's the durability coupled with an unreliable effect of said ECM.
It'll only be worse today with the new HACs, they're going to chew holes in ALL ECM boats now. Oe might think they were made as a specific counter... |

Crellion
Parental Control
46
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 08:22:00 -
[27] - Quote
I respect you hard work OP, you are certainly doing it better than CCP. However all this is unnecessary.
There is a perfect system in place for EW. It was there before CCP introduced the chance based malarkey into the equation.
You have X jammers with a combined strength of Y and the target ship jas a sensor strangth of Y-1 he is jammed for as long as you can keep all modules active on him, if his strength is Y+1 he is not hammed. As simple as that. The only one who needs to calculate all the boring bits is the EW pilot.
ECM worked like this for years, perfectly allright and perfectly balanced (IMO) and then CCP decided they would fixitTM... a simple rollback would fix ECM.
Alternatively remove it from the game altogether. EW in general is a force multiplier in favor of the side having the numerical advantage and is therefore entirely unnecessary and disadvantageous for combat balance... There I said it... |

Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
300
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 09:03:00 -
[28] - Quote
ECM drones. A flight of lights will pretty much permajam any target and have 100% chance of breaking locks or tackle. Even 1 drone will break tackle with a 100% chance.
So - no to your Idea. Opinions are like assholes. Everybody's got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks. |

Caliph Muhammed
Perkone Caldari State
428
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 09:07:00 -
[29] - Quote
Milton Middleson wrote:Quote:Falcon, Blackbird, Rook. Barring the rook, they're paperthin. People say this a lot, and it's not right (well, I'll give you the Blackbird). The Rook is not that much tougher than the Falcon - assuming you choose to actually fit a real tank on your ECM ship - and both are capable of fitting a tank on par with other recons without crippling their function as an electronic warfare platform. They're 'paper thin' because people have a nasty habit of fitting a feeble armor tank or just completely omitting buffer in order to maximize jamming ability. (And because people hate ECM, which makes them a bullet magnet). It's a bit of a tangent, but Caldari recons' supposed lack of durability gets cited a lot in discussions of ECM, and it's just not the case.
Its absolutely the case unless you try and equip an armor tank to a shield based race of ships and sacrifice its purpose in doing so.
If i'm expected to have an armor tank or bcs low slot setup in place of ecm strength why bring the ship to begin with? Nothing pumps out dps like 2 missile launchers and 1 turret.
I suppose at that point another tengu on the field would be optimal. |

Aliventi
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
426
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 19:04:00 -
[30] - Quote
Caliph Muhammed wrote:Milton Middleson wrote:Quote:Falcon, Blackbird, Rook. Barring the rook, they're paperthin. People say this a lot, and it's not right (well, I'll give you the Blackbird). The Rook is not that much tougher than the Falcon - assuming you choose to actually fit a real tank on your ECM ship - and both are capable of fitting a tank on par with other recons without crippling their function as an electronic warfare platform. They're 'paper thin' because people have a nasty habit of fitting a feeble armor tank or just completely omitting buffer in order to maximize jamming ability. (And because people hate ECM, which makes them a bullet magnet). It's a bit of a tangent, but Caldari recons' supposed lack of durability gets cited a lot in discussions of ECM, and it's just not the case. Its absolutely the case unless you try and equip an armor tank to a shield based race of ships and sacrifice its purpose in doing so. If i'm expected to have an armor tank or bcs low slot setup in place of ecm strength why bring the ship to begin with? Nothing pumps out dps like 2 missile launchers and 1 turret. I suppose at that point another tengu on the field would be optimal. Part of the reason for unifying ECM under a single module with scripts to take over the racial aspect was to incentivise fitting tank over jammers. Because you don't need to fit 4 jammers to be effective anymore you can fit 2-3 and still be effective while fitting a decent shield tank. 2 LSE, 2 Invul, 2 jam, MWD on a falcon would rock. You would get tank and still be effective. Perhaps weapons upgrades in the lows to boost your DPS since signal distortion amps won't exist anymore to help bring your DPS up to help kill frigs or whatever. You don't see Huginns with 4 webs and no tank. You don't see Lachesis with 4 points and no tank. Why would you see a 4 jam falcon with no tank? The only reason you see it now is you need 4 jams to be effective. This change makes that thinking obsolete.
As far as ECM drones... That is tough. Perhaps a jam strength rebalance to something like .25 for lights and maybe .30 for mediums. Then you sum the jam strength of the drones and then that is how strong the jam is. The theory would be you are jammed for 1 second with light ECM drones. Maybe 1.5 seconds with mediums. You could even extend the jam cycle time to 30 seconds from 25 to really make it a choice between ECM drones and DPS drones. It is balance-able. It is definitely a big nerf from each drone having a chance to jam you for 20 seconds. "tbh most people don't care about removing local from highsec. They want it gone from nullsec. I want to be able to solo roam hunt without everyone knowing I am there without them actually seeing me jump through the gate. Effortless intel is bad." ~Me |
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