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Macumba
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Posted - 2003.08.21 10:10:00 -
[31]
They're a bit of a waste of time in general. Important questions usually get glossed over, or we're treated to CCP's own version of Verant's "The Vision" (ie. if you don't like it then tough ****, we do).
If more of the dev team played the game as a game then most of the problems raised on this board would be so glaringly obvious that they'd be fixed in no time. Sometimes gameplay ideas work very well on paper but they die on their arse in practice.
For me, the CSM chats are nothing more than a publicity stunt. You get more revealing and useful information from reading the patch notes on Chaos.
"PVP = griefing" Papa Smurf |
Beringe
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Posted - 2003.08.21 10:47:00 -
[32]
 Quote:
If more of the dev team played the game as a game then most of the problems raised on this board would be so glaringly obvious that they'd be fixed in no time. Sometimes gameplay ideas work very well on paper but they die on their arse in practice.
Not saying that there aren't problems, but it is a well known fact in my community (which just happens to be the Icelandic software community) that Eve's creators had one main reason for making this game:
They were creating their own favorite game.
They all play it. A lot. But you've got to realize that developers play the game differently...they almost go out of their way not to cause bugs, and they will do so almost unconsciously. You'd know that if you knew anything about software development that you never have the developers doing the testing, because they simply won't stumble on the bugs most of the time.
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"My main griveance with the Caldari state was that once I had finished my work for them, they wanted me dead."
"No, it's none of your business." |
Orestes
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Posted - 2003.08.21 10:49:00 -
[33]
Eg, TomB the combat master =|
Join the IC! |
Macumba
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Posted - 2003.08.21 11:22:00 -
[34]
You've made exactly the point I was getting at Beringe. So that leaves the only option of having the players test it (which, lets face it, is what we're already doing, albeit for a fee).
The only reason people play on Chaos is to test loadouts without impunity or to see new content. It's an extension of the beta. 99% of the people on there couldn't give a crap about whether bugs were fixed or not. This wouldn't be too bad during beta, as if people are only playing and not reporting bugs then at least they're adding to server load. I don't think we need to stress test the servers any more.
Myself, I won't go onto Chaos out of general principle. I know it's selfish, but I've beta'd every MMORPG I've played, and I've used the test servers on all of them (if they had them). In every game itĘs been the same, there has been 1% of people testing and 99% of people using it as an advance screening of the next patch. If nobody else can be bothered then why should I? From now on I'll just play the game and take it as it comes.
CCP need to find a group of players who know what they're talking about (ie. not Polaris and not the majority of CSM members) and make them an offer they can't refuse. If you want to balance combat then ask M0o, RUS, Sin, Cthullu etc. to take part. If you want to test mining or logistics out then ask TTI. Surely you can make it worth their while. Why shouldn't people be rewarded for helping fix and shape the game? Because a few people might whine? If they're not going to help then they don't get anything, end of story.
Get the people who have the knowledge to help fix the game, not just a handful of blaggers and bull**** merchants who just do it to curry favour with the devs and to get a sneak preview of the next patch.
"PVP = griefing" Papa Smurf |
Grimmacker
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Posted - 2003.08.21 11:25:00 -
[35]
Ive read about three chatlogs so far and by far this is the most worthless one to date, but they all pretty much have been.
The amount of questions and the quality of questions were sorely lacking. One of the DEVS that helped make the game and still is said he is still unaware of some bugs and has not received any in some time
WTF is going on around there? Hmmm Just curious how long the people that asked the questions have played? 1 week 2 weeks? Are they even playing the same game I am?
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Ulstan
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Posted - 2003.08.21 15:49:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Ulstan on 21/08/2003 15:49:46
Yes, well, it would be nice to have at least a token pirate representative there to ask questions that interest pirates.
As long as they behave well and don't disrupt the chat I don't forsee a problem.
(That means no StravOMGs).
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Ayar Cachi
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Posted - 2003.08.21 21:11:00 -
[37]
DM, don't be so sure you don't speak for a lot of Eve players. Although the lazy miner/anti-crime-in-Eve bunch are vocal in forums, they sure as heck don't represent me.
Quote:
My primary concerns in this game are:
-Balance
-Fun
-Danger
-Reward
Yay, my concerns as well! *All* of them, though, not just Fun-thru-AFK-mining or something.
Quote:
My opinions on ore theft are against most of the community (or maybe just the vocal M), as I don't see a problem with ore theft in the slightest.
Me neither. I don't do it (yet?), but it should be possible. As should ways to make it harder and retaliate. Looks like they are working on that from this last CSM (anchoring idea).
Quote:
Whereas I *do* have a problem with people thinking they should be able to secure their stuff from *everybody* for next to nothing.
Er, why do people who think this way play online games? Well, nevermind.
Quote:
I would also ask about changing some of the gate warp-to points, as I see far too many gates out there that dump you at jump-range. But if I suggested this, people would assume I'm doing it just to make my piracy easier.
It would, but that would make the game more interesting. It's too easy to travel around solo in Eve, even in my Mk3 Iteron. If it was a bit more dangerous, my corp members could escort me and such (at least for delaying tactics, more drones, or something). Oh well. I'm not a pirate either, but travel with my wares is generally to easy and too safe.
Quote:
Also, agents are rather dear to me, after having spent a large portion of my game time working with them, so a lot of my input would be in this area.
To me as well. But Papa Smurf is very responsive on the "Missions" forum and doesn't go to CSM. BUT a little reminder at CSMs about agent content and such things that Papa doesn't deal with would be nice. If we're going for balanced representation, say.
Quote:
But I wouldn't ask about customer service or known bugs (when will 'xx' be fixed, etc.) so I'm not sure I'd represent these forums as well as you may hope.
I agree, don't waste CSM time that *could* be well-used and balanced on these. They are important issues, but CSM maybe not the place.
Quote:
And I'd also be hard-pressed not to call someone names for requesting a secure container the size of a stacked indy.
:( Could you perhaps phrase the objection politely and constructively? I agree with the sentiment more or less, but name calling in CSMs not useful. Name-calling occurs here, if you are worried or something.
Ahh, well, I suppose this sort of balanced representation won't really happen, especially since there's some Vocal M people posting here (and everywhere) that seem kinda opposed to changes in the status quo. Too bad really, since the other people are making great suggestions about how to make a great idea (CSMs) even better.
Thanks for taking the time to make a constructive, intelligent post though.
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Mandos
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Posted - 2003.08.22 03:53:00 -
[38]
Stickied for a while, thanks for the link!
-- Mandos
Polaris Forum Moderator and Bug Hunter
EVE Forum rules |
Molly
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Posted - 2003.08.22 05:02:00 -
[39]
Very good questions Grymwulf.
Very bad questions Momm.
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Mojo JoJo
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Posted - 2003.08.22 06:00:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Mojo JoJo on 22/08/2003 06:07:33
forgive me if this question has been answered before
but why would you have a dev chat log link from the game website to a fans website
now dont get me wrong i like fan websites and think the provide something to this games community but why are they not posting links to this website for the chat info
it just seems backasswards
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Pann
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Posted - 2003.08.22 06:33:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Pann on 22/08/2003 08:29:49
Recently, I posted a brief explanation of how CSM delegates are selected. I'm sorry if you missed it, but for those who did, the basics are that some delegates are selected by the devs based on feedback they've read from the person on the boards or from bug reports they have submitted. Others are chosen because of the focus and size of their corps. As someone else mentioned earlier in the thread, the group breaks down like this: 3 large corps, 3 medium-sized, 3 small, 2 freelancers and a press representative. In the post I made, I invited those who were interested in being considered for the next group of delegates to e-mail me. To date, I have only received 5 e-mails.
The CEO of the company is sent an e-mail inviting him - or his designated alternate - to attend the meetings. (Freelancers are not able to choose alternates.) The meetings are held each Wednesday at 10 pm GMT. Our goal is to find a nice cross-section of different player types and I certainly would not be opposed to Jash, Drunkenmaster or Setec participating.
We do not pre-screen questions. These are not conducted like regular dev chats are where you submit a question to a moderator and they screen which ones will be answered. We have no idea what people are going to ask and we have never said, "This topic is off-limits so don't bother asking about it." We can't answer what people don't ask, so if you don't like the issues that are being addressed, talk with one of the delegates and suggest some possible questions. You can see from the chat logs who they are and - as mentioned previously - they serve as delegates for six weeks.
We do try to limit the chats to somewhere between 60 and 90 minutes and by reading the log it may seem like I am rushing things, but in real time - waiting for people to type things out or to think of how they want to word things - I have to do that in order to cover as much ground as possible. That's my job and it's what I'm there for. We have had to limit delegates to one question per turn now because it had gotten to the point where some were asking three or four questions at a time and others never got a chance to ask even one.
To clarify about TomB and the bug reports: TomB works *very* closely with the Bughunters on a daily basis and issues that are related to the aspects of the game that are his focus are brought to his attention, though sometimes QA might investigate them a bit to gather more information before passing it to him. Don't use your selective reading skills to translate that as "No one reads the bug reports" because that simply is not true.
Again, anyone who is interested in serving as a delegate to the CSM should e-mail me and let me know. It would be most helpful if you would include the following information in your message:
Your character name
The name and e-mail address of your CEO, if you are not the CEO of your corporation
The name of your corporation
The primary focus of your corp (ie trading, pvp, roleplaying, etc.)- the same goes for freelancers, and please specify that you are a freelancer
If you are a press representative, please give the URL for your news or fan site.
It is important that we limit the size of the group, so if you are not selected this time, there's a good chance you might be chosen for one of the future sessions. Each session lasts 6 weeks.
P.S. The day and time are non-negotiable. We must be sure that the chat fits into the devs' schedules. If you know that you would not be able to attend these chats at the appointed time, please don't ask to be appointed to the delegation or e-mail/post asking for a date or time change. Allow someone else who can be there to fill the spot. You can always suggest questions or topics to them. Takk!
Eve Community Manager
[email protected]
CCP |
Ayar Cachi
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Posted - 2003.08.22 07:18:00 -
[42]
Quote:
Our goal is to find a nice cross-section of different player types and I certainly would not be opposed to Jash, Drunkenmaster or Setec participating.
Yay! Perfect. Cross section of different players is a good goal. Well folks? There are some instructions for application right there too. Or at least Jash/DM, since you've both expounded here and--presumably--care? :)
Should be able to nominate people or something. Probably that's a bad idea. But still would be nice to have community help select the diverse cross-sectional representation of said community.
Good reply, addressed all the various criticisms and "observations". Did I say yay?
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drunkenmaster
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Posted - 2003.08.22 08:39:00 -
[43]
I missed the original 'how to' on applying for the CSM. But I have sent a mail now.
Now I think about it, I *do* have some questions to ask, and a few points to clarify. 
.
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Eldariel
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Posted - 2003.08.22 11:47:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Eldariel on 22/08/2003 11:48:20
Pann - how about putting the CSM selection/ application process notes in Information Central as a sticky...
Otherwise you're just going to end up reposting this every time the CSM logs are linked 
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Pann
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Posted - 2003.08.22 16:19:00 -
[45]
Good advice, Eldariel. I've made the post and included the related fiction piece that explains the CSM.
The good news/bad news is that the e-mails are really starting to roll in now. That's good because it's great to see so many people are interested and want to participate, but bad because that makes it harder to choose delegates. I don't want to make anyone feel like the last kid picked for the team. 
Eve Community Manager
[email protected]
CCP |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.08.22 17:20:00 -
[46]
Quote:
Quote:
Our goal is to find a nice cross-section of different player types and I certainly would not be opposed to Jash, Drunkenmaster or Setec participating.
Yay! Perfect. Cross section of different players is a good goal. Well folks? There are some instructions for application right there too. Or at least Jash/DM, since you've both expounded here and--presumably--care? :)
Should be able to nominate people or something. Probably that's a bad idea. But still would be nice to have community help select the diverse cross-sectional representation of said community.
Good reply, addressed all the various criticisms and "observations". Did I say yay?
Oooo...is that a challenge? 
Okay, soon as I stop arguing with my ISP, I'll give it a go.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Fusco T
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Posted - 2003.08.22 17:57:00 -
[47]
Drunkenmaster, Setec, Jash.
Only one of the above has enough class and self restraint to be a constructive participant imo.
Setec and Jash both have demonstrated an inability to see something from both sides and absolutely refuse to allow someone with a differing viepoint any credence simply because it is opposite theirs.
Drunkenmaster on the other hand can at least see both sides. While although I don't agree with DM on many issues, it is very clear in the way he posts that he is indeed seeing both sides and seeks to be understood without the demeaning terms that setec and jash generally fall back on.
But if you wanted to allow a 'pro-pirate' viewpoint into the CSM I would say that DM would be an excellent choice.
/dons rose coloured welding goggles
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Gildon
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Posted - 2003.08.22 18:11:00 -
[48]
What would be REALLY cool, and support this would be a forum where 'questions' could be posted and then people vote on them. You guys could OPEN by answering the top 5.
Would need to be moderated so Questions are precise, but I would love that.
Example -
Question - Are you aware of all the missile problems (and skill issues with missiles) and when do you see improvement or fixing them?
This gets voted heavily and is in top 5....so you guys know going in - here is something important to MANY people.
Just an idea.
Gil
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Sorcerers Apprentice
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Posted - 2003.08.22 21:36:00 -
[49]
Hi Pann!
Reading about the Time frame and People needing to type message and thinking about how to phrase answers, I'd like to make a suggestion:
Why not create a Limited Board for the CSM Members. There they can ask their Questions and the dev's can then go and answer them in their own time and not Limit the CSM time...
Using this approach, the CSM Chat would be free for more immediate things and the Board could be used for "Q & A" that are not really immediate?
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.08.23 00:21:00 -
[50]
Quote:
Drunkenmaster, Setec, Jash.
Only one of the above has enough class and self restraint to be a constructive participant imo.
Setec and Jash both have demonstrated an inability to see something from both sides and absolutely refuse to allow someone with a differing viepoint any credence simply because it is opposite theirs.
Drunkenmaster on the other hand can at least see both sides. While although I don't agree with DM on many issues, it is very clear in the way he posts that he is indeed seeing both sides and seeks to be understood without the demeaning terms that setec and jash generally fall back on.
But if you wanted to allow a 'pro-pirate' viewpoint into the CSM I would say that DM would be an excellent choice.
/dons rose coloured welding goggles
Can I use you as a reference on my next job app? I get the feeling you'd give a stunning performance... 
Neither Setec nor myself want what you fear: completely unrestricted slaughtering of anything in a ship. Been said multiple times by both of us. I can't speak for Setec but I meet hostility with hostility. And I have an extremely long memory. I don't particularly cotton to "Forgive and Forget". I'm more of a 'Do Unto Others...' type.
That being said, remind me to pod you next time I get a chance
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
nono
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Posted - 2003.08.23 02:17:00 -
[51]
I'll complete that "do unto others..." for you Jash.
It's: " Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."
So many people in life think it's " do unto others as they do unto you".
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.08.23 02:28:00 -
[52]
Quote:
I'll complete that "do unto others..." for you Jash.
It's: " Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."
So many people in life think it's " do unto others as they do unto you".
Heh...you completed it for you. I never said I followed the principle exactly
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
happy
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Posted - 2003.08.23 02:32:00 -
[53]
can anyone ask the devs if they can put the keep at rage for cargo cans back in the game?
If your happy and you know it clap your hands...... and if your not happy and you know it, .....its probaly because i just podded
you
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nono
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Posted - 2003.08.23 04:54:00 -
[54]
Quote:
Quote:
I'll complete that "do unto others..." for you Jash.
It's: " Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."
So many people in life think it's " do unto others as they do unto you".
Heh...you completed it for you. I never said I followed the principle exactly
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Discorporation
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Posted - 2003.08.23 11:06:00 -
[55]
"Do unto others as they do unto you.
If possible do unto others before they do unto you"
[Heterocephalus glaber]
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ToKE
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Posted - 2003.08.23 16:08:00 -
[56]
Quote:
Quote:
These CSM chats are a lot like the "White House Press Chats" you have a lot of invited reporters who (not in the CSM chats, but the WH) let the Press Secretary know the questions that will be asked before hand and instructs the press which questions can be asked and which wont be.
Funny that, sounds nothing like the CSM Chats that the BSC attended.
I believe selection of corporations is based upon size - two megacorps, two small corps and freelancer rep and a fan site rep was the original brief for CSM's that I saw during beta.
Questions were not discussed beforehand, and not preselected - they are asked on the spot. It is dependant on the CSM Reps there, however, what questions they ask.
Given time, perhaps your corporations may be selected to participate in the CSM (it changes once monthly) and hence be able to get your questions across.
Meanwhile, why not contact those corporations currently represented and ask them if they'll be so kind as to put your questions across?
So how come its always the same people attending? Should it not be a completely different group of people asking the questions each meeting? well yes it should, but it isn't.
_______________________________________________
Ahaahhhh you didn't count on my loyal army of Prostitutes did you? |
Thano
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Posted - 2003.08.23 19:37:00 -
[57]
Quote:
So how come its always the same people attending? Should it not be a completely different group of people asking the questions each meeting? well yes it should, but it isn't.
the deligates term is i beleive is 6 weeks
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2003.08.26 15:18:00 -
[58]
Re Questions for CSM delegates; any idea of the best place to store and propose these?
At present my biggest issue with the game is the Corporate War system which seems broken.
I cannot find anyway to end a corporate war.
My corp is consequentially handcuffed by three existing wars; 2 of which are with corporations that are no longer active and the remaining war with a corp which has actually been disbanded!
Now I know some people get round this problem by creating new corps as flags of convenience but its a bit poor to have to resort to such really.
And as for surrendering ... even as a last resort it can't be done, since in the case of our non-existant enemy corp "eve system" is listed as the CEO name to be negotiated with!
I've already petitioned this of course, and the feedback has been a "we can't really do anything about it".
So my suggestion (and hence prefered question in CSM) would be be ... Could we have a hard timelimit placed on Corp wars?
either,
X days total before re declaration is required.
or X days from last hostile action.
And have *all* wars ended automatically when the limits are reached.
This would, I think, more than make up for the inconvenience of re-declaring occassionally, and would save a whole lot of corps from the "can't fight" hassles of the current flawed system.
Oh, and the by the by, I'd love to be a delegate in CSM chat one day ;)
Love and peace
JF Public Forum |
Gan Howorth
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Posted - 2003.08.26 20:07:00 -
[59]
Agreed a nice list of mentally stable questions for the delegates to help vocalise in CSM.
Hell why not a seperate thread for this?
*wonders where to start one*
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