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Wuhu
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Posted - 2006.01.08 18:00:00 -
[1]
Sorry if this is already addressed; the forums need a search feature.
It seems to me that HAC prices are out of control. I've seen the price of a Cerberus more than double in the past several weeks (from 80 million to 160 million). At the current rate I can easily see these things push 200 million isk. This is great if you manufacture these things (and can find a BPC), but it is killing the market in my opinion and preventing what are otherwise outstanding ships from hitting wider use.
Not to mention insurance. I haven't done the exact math, but I doubt the payouts come anywhere near the cost of the ship.
My understanding is that it has to do with R.A.M no longer being repairable. Could be wrong though, but that's the point of the post. Whatever the reason it seems like CCP needs to do something to help us out here. NOT a nerf, you guys are too nerf happy.
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Sardau Kar
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Posted - 2006.01.08 18:08:00 -
[2]
Its time for skill relocation,CCP!!
and fix my account plz
http://www.ebaumsworld.com/flash/supersonik.html |
Hyperion Bloodmoon
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Posted - 2006.01.08 18:37:00 -
[3]
Anyone care that you're paying that much? Or not as the case may be.
 Originally by: Sardau Kar}and fix my account plz
[/quote
And thanks for piggybacking off the topic.
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Shadowsword
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Posted - 2006.01.08 18:51:00 -
[4]
The Cerberus are the new flavor of the month ship. If you want an HAC for 80 millions, go buy an Eagle or a Muninn.
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.01.08 19:25:00 -
[5]
RAM issues have raised prices.
CCP moving the industry system back from modern JIT to 1890's parallel production has raised prices.
Warning: above post may contain traces of sarcasm.
"Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted." |
High Sierra
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Posted - 2006.01.08 19:29:00 -
[6]
welcome to the hard world of economics hitting T2 production.
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ChainyMcSmoke
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Posted - 2006.01.08 19:40:00 -
[7]
TBH I think hac prices are right where they should be. If you cant afford to loose it dont fly it or buy it. Right now cerberus are the flavor of the week a ship that has only recently lost the knick-name Carebearus. As for next week, who knows.
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b2nwallace
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Posted - 2006.01.08 20:48:00 -
[8]
Originally by: ChainyMcSmoke
TBH I think hac prices are right where they should be. If you cant afford to loose it dont fly it or buy it. Right now cerberus are the flavor of the week a ship that has only recently lost the knick-name Carebearus. As for next week, who knows.
you sire are by farest the biggest idoit to date you are aware hac construction raised by 5mil they cost about 40mil producers are making a 120mil profit every 10 days they make about 1bil isk in profit so while normies get bankrupted by t2 producers how are thye supposed to afford it
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LoKesh
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Posted - 2006.01.08 21:23:00 -
[9]
Not having studied economics extensively, I might be over simplifying -
But supply and demand! If people are willing to pay 120 million, then the price will stay there. The ways to change this are - break the monopolies so competition can happen, or just don't buy a HAC.
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evilGold
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Posted - 2006.01.08 21:37:00 -
[10]
TBH I think CCP don't have clue how to fix the severely screwed economics of EvE :)
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Glarion Garnier
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Posted - 2006.01.08 21:57:00 -
[11]
Well if you think about it. First thing to lower the Hac prices would be making bpo's for RAM tools. Next step improve POS bussiness a bit once more.
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Nocturnal Avenger
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Posted - 2006.01.08 22:06:00 -
[12]
Originally by: LoKesh
Not having studied economics extensively, I might be over simplifying -
But supply and demand! If people are willing to pay 120 million, then the price will stay there. The ways to change this are - break the monopolies so competition can happen, or just don't buy a HAC.
Right on the money
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Jenna H4ze
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Posted - 2006.01.08 22:06:00 -
[13]
if you had connections it's easy....
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Algey
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Posted - 2006.01.08 22:26:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Glarion Garnier
Well if you think about it. First thing to lower the Hac prices would be making bpo's for RAM tools. Next step improve POS bussiness a bit once more.
If the high price was dictated by the cost of the ram then this would be the case. However the ram cost is a tiny fraction of the ship selling price.
People want the ships so buy them as soon as they are produced. As such the price will keep going up until the ships start getting left on the shelves.
When demand exceeds supply you have inflation. When supply exceeds demand you get deflation.
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Zedivh
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Posted - 2006.01.08 22:39:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Zedivh on 08/01/2006 22:39:10
It may be CCP's fault that not enough R.A.M. are being distributed to the playerbase, but so what, that's part of the game. Also, the economics are NOT messed up, they are exactly how a capitalistic economy works. We can't complain about the prices when people are willing to pay 
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Trelennen
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Posted - 2006.01.08 22:44:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Algey
When demand exceeds supply you have inflation. When supply exceeds demand you get deflation.
QFT. And here we have an artificial shortage, which is worse everyday, due to CCP limiting the number of BPOs, and not seeding new ones while the demand has greatly increased with more and more people having the skills to fly HACs. And those new recon ships and T2 BC won't really help reducing demand, as there will still be more new people able to fly HACs than new people able to fly those new ships, hence demand for HACs will keep increasing, with a production which can't increase, and can, under some conditions, decrease (RAM shortage).
People should not throw the stone at producers (except when there is effectively a monopoly, like with cap recharger T2). The thing for HACs is that demand is too high compared to offer, and even if producers decided to sell cheaper, you'd have reseller buying all and reselling at the current prices. Only way to avoid paying such outrageous prices is to enter the waiting lists by the producers (and the cheaper they sell, the longer the waiting lists, with a lot of resellers in the queue too). Producers selling HACs cheaper would not change market price, which is determined by offer vs demand, and the artificial shortage forced upon us by CCP. The shortage is worse every day, whereas, as this technology becomes older each day, they should become more and more available, and prices should decrease...
Fix Stealth Bombers descriptions - AS need 4 bonus + Jag, Vengeance, Hawk as Missile AS? Tux/Hammer/TomB! |
Trelennen
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Posted - 2006.01.08 22:47:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Zedivh
Edited by: Zedivh on 08/01/2006 22:39:10
It may be CCP's fault that not enough R.A.M. are being distributed to the playerbase, but so what, that's part of the game. Also, the economics are NOT messed up, they are exactly how a capitalistic economy works. We can't complain about the prices when people are willing to pay
Well, except in a complete capitalistic economy, components would be the limiting factor, as as long there's enough components to build more, new producers would spend some time reverse engineering the existing products to make copies of them, and existing producers would increase their production to sell more (cheaper, but making more money in the end). But in EVE, producers can't choose to increase production, 'cause there is an artificial limitations on the number of ships that can be produced each week (limited number of BPOs).
Fix Stealth Bombers descriptions - AS need 4 bonus + Jag, Vengeance, Hawk as Missile AS? Tux/Hammer/TomB! |
Joerd Toastius
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Posted - 2006.01.08 23:20:00 -
[18]
RAM is not pushing up prices because of cost, it's pushing up prices because its lack of availability is increasing rarity
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ShadowlordUK
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Posted - 2006.01.08 23:35:00 -
[19]
Edited by: ShadowlordUK on 08/01/2006 23:36:21
There is one rather obvious economics solution to this problem...
The current artificially high prices are created by barriers to entry.
Just like in the real world, if there are high barriers to entry into a marketplace it allows existing producers to maintain abnormally high profits.
A real world example would be state run/financed industries where competition is simply not allowed.
In Eve the massive barriers to entry are the BPO's and how they are distributed.
The simple solution would be for npc's to offer an unlimited supply of all BPO's for sale on the market. The npc's already do this for commodities and the npc prices do react to changes in demand.
The Price of BPO's and the cost of the ships would eventually stabilise at a perfect market equilibrium level...
Now i realise that everybody who has research agents is going to scream and stamp their feet at this idea because it would remove the random 2-50 bil lottery payouts that a very small proportion of eve players get to enjoy.
But it would solve the problem and stay true to eve's free market philosophy.
P.S. There will always be massive inflation in eve due to the lack of money sinks in the game but thats another matter entirely...
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Mo Steel
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Posted - 2006.01.08 23:45:00 -
[20]
Boycott the producers and refuse to pay the prices if that's the main issue. If it's "I want mine for cheap, screw everyone else" then you're SOL. |
Guntaro
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Posted - 2006.01.08 23:45:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Zedivh
Edited by: Zedivh on 08/01/2006 22:39:10
It may be CCP's fault that not enough R.A.M. are being distributed to the playerbase, but so what, that's part of the game. Also, the economics are NOT messed up, they are exactly how a capitalistic economy works. We can't complain about the prices when people are willing to pay
The Eve economy is messed up. In the real world there are laws against price fixing, price gouging, and monopolies. But in Eve there are no such laws.
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CptEagle
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Posted - 2006.01.08 23:46:00 -
[22]
Tbh I think this is just a game and I hate the fact that I can't fly the ship I like most and trained for a long time, just because of economics... If you can get a Deimos for 150m then have it quite cheap... But I've heard the construction cost is only like 40M.
Seems to me like there just not enough plp around that are building them. Maybe it takes too long to build 1, or there are not sufficient BPO's to satisfy all the players.
FatBalls > CCP just checked their logs and no lag ever came from EvE |
Trelennen
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Posted - 2006.01.08 23:50:00 -
[23]
I will say one more thing (or rather quote a knowlegdeable man):
Originally by: Oveur
I am not interested in "the lottery sucks" or "more tech 2 blueprints" since that is pretty much stating the obvious 
As you can see, it's obvious we need more T2 BPOs. And the shortage in T2 BPOs (and now the - temporary I hope - RAM shortage, resulting in a bigger HAC shortage) is the issue with T2 market, and in particular HAC market.
Fix Stealth Bombers descriptions - AS need 4 bonus + Jag, Vengeance, Hawk as Missile AS? Tux/Hammer/TomB! |
Parallax Error
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Posted - 2006.01.08 23:58:00 -
[24]
Funny how its only the Cerberus thats had massive price increases, where as every other HAC has increased roughly inline with the RAM costs.
Couldn't be anything to do with Heavy Launchers Rate of Fire being improved...
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LUKKAT
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Posted - 2006.01.09 00:09:00 -
[25]
Originally by: CptEagle
Edited by: CptEagle on 08/01/2006 23:49:58
Tbh I think this is just a game and I hate the fact that I can't fly the ship I like most and trained for a long time, just because of economics... If you can get a Deimos for 150m then have it quite cheap... But I've heard the construction cost is only like 40M.
agree with this comment,
ive spent 4 months training towards a ishtar and cant find one to buy, isnt the long skill time suppose to be the barrier to using them? and isk is not the issue am willing to pay whatever, to me this is a game and i like to shoot stuff
atm im just using dominix as a substitute and am regretting the training wasted on cruiser 5, should have put it towards large guns instead
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Malthros Zenobia
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Posted - 2006.01.09 00:19:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Malthros Zenobia on 09/01/2006 00:18:45
Originally by: Wuhu
I've seen the price of a Cerberus more than double in the past several weeks (from 80 million to 160 million). At the current rate I can easily see these things push 200 million isk.
Cerbs got a much needed boost when RMR was released. That upper their prices as much, if not more, than RAM issues.
Originally by: Oveur
I am not interested in "the lottery sucks" or "more tech 2 blueprints" since that is pretty much stating the obvious.
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DoctorGonzo
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Posted - 2006.01.09 00:28:00 -
[27]
Originally by: CptEagle
Tbh I think this is just a game and I hate the fact that I can't fly the ship I like most and trained for a long time, just because of economics... If you can get a Deimos for 150m then have it quite cheap... But I've heard the construction cost is only like 40M.
Build cost is more like 25 million per HAC.
HAC production is great business to be in, if you can get hold of the bpo's, which there's 20 of per type in the game. So not including bpc's there's 160 HAC's being produced each day as it takes about 24 hours to build each one. The problem the Market has is that alot of people have bpo's to supply their own pilots and not really produce for general consumption.
Get Your BoB Protection Kit Here |
Chepe Nolon
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Posted - 2006.01.09 00:39:00 -
[28]
It's supply and demand. The most basic factors in any economic model.
HAC's are popular, and the time it takes to produce one is long. As long as the sale list is empty or has only one item in it, the seller can take whatever he likes as long as someone will pay it's price for it.
And for those that has achieved a monopoly or a trade union for a kind of t2 item: congrats. I guess that's what's happened with the t2 cap recharger. Since it started out selling for 600k when the cap relay wasn't gimped. And now it's like 15-20M a piece.
Chepe Nolon
--
My notes about agent missions. |
Amerame
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Posted - 2006.01.09 01:15:00 -
[29]
I used to see a lot of HAC in pvp when their cost was 50-80M, now I don't see many of them roaming, a couple of eagles here and there because they are still relatively cheap and usefull in fleet, but that's all. My corp used to use small gangs of HACs, it's been a while since we last did that.
Fixed supply with no possibility at all to enter the market is indeed extremely bad. T2 ships should not be cheap, but honestly those t2 cruisers are not worth risking 5 times as much as a battleship.
I don't get it, it's impossible to increase the supply of t2 stuff when the demand has been growing constantly. Though there is a hope on the long run for T2 ships, if the supply for HACs will not increase, Recon, Command ship are somewhat substitute one for another. I don't mean they fullfill the same roles, just that what makes HAC's *cool* to fly can be found in reconn / command.
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Mo Steel
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Posted - 2006.01.09 01:23:00 -
[30]
Substitute goods FTW!  |
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