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Crosi Wesdo
War and Order Samurai Pizza Cats
649
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 15:04:00 -
[31] - Quote
Basically, you want it to be even all the time. Personally i like the pendulum. The best fights are when one side has its back against the wall.
As for recruitment, it would help if they implemented the few tweaks to plexing that have been mentioned for months to discourage the farming of LP by non skilled alts. This could encourage these null bears to actually skill up their alts to fight for their LP.
On the other hand, the farmers swing the pendulum, and its good that they do otherwise it could end up with one side dominating over the other even more so than they do now. Which could end very badly for the Amarr. |
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
611
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 15:47:00 -
[32] - Quote
Slade Antonius wrote: That is why Zarnak's idea and others in this thread make sense. Like it or not, there has to be some type of levelling of the playing field for the long term health of FW.
Removing tiers remove any incentive/reward/reasons to capture systems. Worse, it makes more convenient to NOT capture systems so to have more plex avaiable. Basically rewards for loosing the WZC game.
Again, plexes are resources and the purpose is to prompt people to compete for these resources. Actually the loosing side earn less LP from these resources but:
1. The loosing side LP are more evaluable due to market self-regulating 2. The loosing side resources avaiablity is far higher and easy
All aspects have to be considerated.
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Anya Lunebleu
Royal Order of Security Specialists Late Night Alliance
25
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 16:05:00 -
[33] - Quote
Must be that time again. Affirmative action for EVE anyone?
Spare me the concern trolling for my wallet. Let me worry about my wallet, if I give a xxxx. Last year, you were concerned for your wallet.
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Zarnak Wulf
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
1335
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 16:09:00 -
[34] - Quote
Sura Sadiva wrote:Slade Antonius wrote: That is why Zarnak's idea and others in this thread make sense. Like it or not, there has to be some type of levelling of the playing field for the long term health of FW.
Removing tiers remove any incentive/reward/reasons to capture systems. Worse, it makes more convenient to NOT capture systems so to have more plex avaiable. Basically rewards for loosing the WZC game. Again, plexes are resources and the purpose is to prompt people to compete for these resources. Actually the loosing side earn less LP from these resources but: 1. The loosing side LP are more evaluable due to market self-regulating 2. The loosing side resources avaiablity is far higher and easy All aspects have to be considerated.
There is a difference between sovereignty and the mechanics for gaining sovereignty. As it is right now you get very little for actually holding a system. Docking rights. Bragging rights. When was the last time a corpmate logged on and complained about missing science slots?
Putting the benefits in the nuts and bolts of taking sov is a horrible game mechanic because it is so farm centric. It rewards circling a button rather then actually owning a system. If you want the winner to have a boon - which I'm not opposed to at all - it needs to be on the back end. |
Courath Al'viendi
Black Fox Marauders
22
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 16:28:00 -
[35] - Quote
Remove LP from plexes? Give more LP for kills? Get ready for HOLY GATECAMP BATMAN!!!!! |
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
928
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 17:58:00 -
[36] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote: There is a difference between sovereignty and the mechanics for gaining sovereignty. As it is right now you get very little for actually holding a system. Docking rights. Bragging rights. When was the last time a corpmate logged on and complained about missing science slots?
Putting the benefits in the nuts and bolts of taking sov is a horrible game mechanic because it is so farm centric. It rewards circling a button rather then actually owning a system. If you want the winner to have a boon - which I'm not opposed to at all - it needs to be on the back end.
You can't have a FW mechanic that purely benefits owning a system, either, at least not militia-wide. At least with the current system, farm-centric as it is, only people who contribute to owning a system receive benefits. Can you imagine how people would flood to the winning side if they got benefits just from existing in that faction?
A better way to deal with it is to just make it really, really easy to interrupt plexes. If someone comes into a plex you are running and runs you out, you should lose all progress on the plex and the attacker should potentially get a bonus determined by how much of the cap he reversed.
Also, LP rewards as a whole should probably just be brought down, so it's not so good as a pure income source. And the differences between high and low tiers should be compressed, a lot. |
Bad Messenger
Nasranite Watch OLD MAN GANG
560
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 18:49:00 -
[37] - Quote
It is all about organisation, tactics and will to do right things, 50 guys can control whole area with mains and alts, even less is enough if those guys are good pvpers.
so i do not really know how this can be too much for people.
It is not about game mechanics it is about player will to do something, and farmers do isk because they will.
most succestions seems to be like "make timers run backwards if farmer leaves", only reason why people want this is that they do not want to use time in plex so those who do not want to play game should win? |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
783
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 21:48:00 -
[38] - Quote
Tier system removal doesn't cut it. Can be part of a solution, but not the real problem (hint: over-incentivization).
FW is for all intents and purposes dead, a carcass being slowly picked clean by people from "outside" whose only interest is easy access to cheap faction gear.
Want real verifiable data to support that claim?
Remember what this forum contained prior to the Infernal patch? .. it was full of chest beating, EGO bashing, faction propaganda and glorious battle reports .. now you have "how do I run plexes with 5 day character", silly threads with no relation to FW (WTF is that!!! ), "how many stabs should I use" and "which faction is best for money" (and infinite variations thereof).
Killboard entries may have increased post Infernal but overall quality has decreased manyfold, or there would be at least one thread in recent history with a battle report of sorts .. you read that right, there is not even ONE thread these days .. my guess is that the horn one has to toot after killing the umpteenth stabbed farmer is too small to allow passage of atmospheric molecules so we never hear them.
My take (some of it at least): LP has no place in the conquering phase of a war, illogical in the extreme yet that is what plexing LP amounts to. Move it to missions, mining, rats in general and what not and use system upgrades augment intake. - People will not fight for something today that they can get for free tomorrow (ie. contested status) so the entire premise that plex-LP was based was voided from the start (caution was utterly ignored pre-patch by the way).
Missions should not ever be able to 'go to' an already occupied system, if they do then payouts should be 2-3 levels below mission level (ex. Lvl4 => Lvl1-2 payout). - Self evident, both balance and strategic logic wise. - If above is done then missions could add to VP pool as if a plex of equal size (balanced out by last entry).
Should not be possible to completely halt plex rat spawns, by all means remove the last "Big'un" spawn if ludicrous killing speed (as opposed to current leisurely stroll) is brought to bear on the first wave. - Whole idea with my FW plex specific rats that was co-opted by CCP was to force the issue of 'appropriate ships' by giving them a knob to tweak that didn't break stuff elsewhere .. not to make them into overweight rent-a-cops armed with empty water pistols.
All the stuff that is not doing as expected by the delusional minds at CCP should be revised or removed. - Most grievous example is iHubs. Meant to foster big fights with capitals on the board during winters in Hell .. doesn't happen, or rather the times it has happened can be finger counted by a clumsy sawmill worker. - My last suggestion on that topic stands, remove ihubs and introduce a 3-4 hrs period in which plex spawning is accelerated and VP gain per plex increased with an automatic drop to 80% contested if DT interrupts (assuming the timer cannot be made to carry over).
Revise tier to hinge upon raw controlled systems rather than the ~16% current, Increase VP requirement the higher the tier difference is (in under dogs favour obviously). - Only way that I can see to simulate over-extended supply lines in FW (null needs something similar by the way, say a hard limit on systems that can be transversed using bridges or simply disallowing multiple bridges in systems). - Other uses for tier should be tied to individual system upgrades, boosting exploitation of resources in said system for instance. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1579
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 22:21:00 -
[39] - Quote
Somebody should suggest that all the FW bittervets should move on with their Eve lives and leave FW behind. If they are suffering from P-FW-TSD, then they should go seek counseling (I suggest Trinket's Friend, he gives great advice) because there isn't going to be a major iteration on FW for at least two years. CCP still has to solve the 0.0 Sov issue before it ever gets back to FW.
Seriously guys. You say you want good fights? You know how to get them. You say you want system control. You know how to accomplish that as well. You know that the farmers farm, and by now you know how to manipulate their behavior wrt to Occupancy Warfare.
You complain about station lockouts and LP for plexes on one hand, and then forget that without them in place nobody would care about FW Sov (station lockouts), and there would be far less pew in the warzone (people would have to PVE far more often). LP for plexes, while exploitable, has allowed many pvp junkies to pretty much pvp 24/7 - which is what everybody wants to do, right?
Oh, you want to win FW without putting in the enormous effort required to do so. Somehow you think your 10 man corp should be able to lock down 50 systems all by yourselves. Umm, yeah, not gonna happen. Deal with it.
Move on bittervets, for your own good! |
Cromwell Savage
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
146
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 12:35:00 -
[40] - Quote
I'll be honest - didn't read all replies... Not a fan of the Tier system as well....
LP should be reduce for plexing. I'm for LP gained from plexing...just not so much. Missions should be the main LP bead winner.
I personally have no issue with mission farmers (as in the past) as they have zero impact on "sov". The issue with plexes giving so much LP is plex farmers have literally zero risk/investment yet DO have an impact on "sov" - which is utter crap. I don't have the magic crystal ball to tell what the magic "balance" is for this....but plexes should not be the LP sink they are now...
Also, I like the timer roll-back concept. |
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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
785
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 13:27:00 -
[41] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Seriously guys. You say you want good fights? You know how to get them. You say you want system control. You know how to accomplish that as well. Yup, sure do. Get a bunch of link alts to haul around and/or go to the perma-linked systems for a good time! *sigh*. Until links are made obvious (ie. on-grid) there is no 'good fight' in FW. System control is a simple matter of throwing more bodies at it than the enemy or plexing it while he's sleeping, awesome stuff. Apart from HQ systems you will not get plex fights, period .. if you do then it is because it is as close to an arranged fight as it can be without formalising it .. plexing is for alts and farmers, not mains.
X Gallentius wrote:You know that the farmers farm, and by now you know how to manipulate their behavior wrt to Occupancy Warfare. Yup, sure do. Chase them around until they either wait you out (easy as they are alts) or go plex elsewhere.
X Gallentius wrote:You complain about station lockouts and LP for plexes on one hand, and then forget that without them in place nobody would care about FW Sov (station lockouts), and there would be far less pew in the warzone (people would have to PVE far more often). LP for plexes, while exploitable, has allowed many pvp junkies to pretty much pvp 24/7 - which is what everybody wants to do, right? If you were unable to make ends meet before the Infernal patch then the problem was yours and not the mechanics. Only difference between then and now is that plexes are for some unfathomable reason not considered PvE content so the "leet PvP'ers" who have PvE phobias appropriate to their leet'ness can make more money than God without the need to face their fear and get to kill a stab-monkey a day. The fact that it is exploitable (your own words) makes it a broken mechanic, there should not be any place in Eve where one can get something for nothing .. even moongoo, that most holiest of cows, is likely to be shaken up something fierce when the time comes. Killing diaper-alts that are probably multi-boxed is not pew, it is euthanasia at best .. ganking at worst. Until there is something tangible to fight for actual pew will not reemerge in FW space and with LP->ISK having been proven to not be reason enough (or farmers wouldn't be stabbed, alts or run) something else must be introduced.
X Gallentius wrote:Oh, you want to win FW without putting in the enormous effort required to do so. Somehow you think your 10 man corp should be able to lock down 50 systems all by yourselves. Umm, yeah, not gonna happen. Deal with it. Enormous effort = Having more bodies to throw around. Great underlying mechanic that is, done wonders everywhere (not Eve exclusive either) it has been used .. makes for truly scintillating gameplay!!! Winning is of secondary or even tertiary importance in games such as MMO's .. the challenge and fun is what makes people pay the piper month in and month out. In a more common (and overused) phrase: It is the journey, not the destination that matters.
Current FW mechanics are indefensible. They are poorly thought out and badly maintained .. wasn't the plan and excuse used at launch that they had incorporated so many knobs and dials that it could be adjusted on a whim when issues emerged? |
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
405
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 13:43:00 -
[42] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote: Current FW mechanics are indefensible. They are poorly thought out and badly maintained .. wasn't the plan and excuse used at launch that they had incorporated so many knobs and dials that it could be adjusted on a whim when issues emerged?
Well... let's not go overboard here.
I can tell by the corp you are in that this entire topic is probably a sore subject for you. The beauty of fw is, in a years time you will likely be on top... as that's how this system works.
The pendulum will swing: Success feeds pvp apathy due to pve opportunity/capitalization and fatigue for pressing systems (up until the other side gives up and goes home anyways). Either way, both will take their toll and the longer a side 'wins' the longer they'll be subject to those effects. Should the war go stale entirely, the mechanics of the game give the other side a kick in the ass (the LP market is fully crashed for the side that has completely won, while the LP market for the 'losers' becomes more and more tempting as a faction item/ship 'supply' with great profit margin is waiting to be cashed in on ).
In this regard FW does have a balance that I must respect. The mechanics at the root are pretty damned good (and you are evidence of this. How? I'll get to that later. )
However, as I said earlier "kill the alt system, amirite?".
The issue isn't missioners.( In fact, the more of them the better, they will kill the pve incentives for a winning side faster than anything.)
THE ISSUE IS THE CLOCKERS. The issue is pressing system control with little or no effort. The issue is pvp opportunity and mechanics that require a minimal level of effort being applied to press a system effectively (one being much higher than what we currently see)
But we must be careful to also maintain the good aspects FW have brought us. Let's face it, its the best thing for 1v1 combat since Juliardo McPodsalot invented the warp scrambler.
So... a knob and dial appears... how do we adjust it?
I say
-make the NPC's in fw plex more significant (specifically, mediums and larges). no one should be able to afk these things, nor solo them. npc ew galore, sleeper-ish AI, (don't make them insurmountable, but make them much less farmable)
-keep smalls and novices the way they are, people love them for the small group / 1v1 battlegrounds they are
-reduce the impact of small and novice fw plex to system control. -increase the impact of medium and larges
-change the very mechanics of how the FW plex's spawn. THIS IS HUGE! After a few novice / smalls have been closed someone MUST press a larger plex to continue pressing control of the system. (which thanks to our above changes is a much harder task)
Stop being so melodramatic. FW is great, if it wasn't you wouldn't be so emotionally invested as to make the posts you're making. But you are right that some knobs and dials need adjusted. And that's pretty much it.
It doesn't need a fundamental rework, all it needs is a little bit of thought and attention. |
Baron' Soontir Fel
Noob Mercs Monkeys with Guns.
24
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 15:37:00 -
[43] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote: Yup, sure do. Get a bunch of link alts to haul around and/or go to the perma-linked systems for a good time! *sigh*. Until links are made obvious (ie. on-grid) there is no 'good fight' in FW.
Maybe you should get a probing alt and blow them up. Instead of QQ'ing about perma-linked systems in Amarr space.
|
Bad Messenger
Nasranite Watch OLD MAN GANG
562
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 16:37:00 -
[44] - Quote
At least there is lot of new players doing FW and having fun, that is how it was ment to be at the beginning,
For older players it may not be so challenging, killing farmers etc feels more like kill mail farming than anything else.
FW is working fine.
CCP mindlink changes was not so good, best would be that amarr had armor+skirmish, so there would be reason for both to fight for better lp, but CCP boosted minmatar and gallente so no wonder those have all systems now. |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
785
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 17:08:00 -
[45] - Quote
Baron' Soontir Fel wrote:Veshta Yoshida wrote: Yup, sure do. Get a bunch of link alts to haul around and/or go to the perma-linked systems for a good time! *sigh*. Until links are made obvious (ie. on-grid) there is no 'good fight' in FW.
Maybe you should get a probing alt and blow them up. Instead of QQ'ing about perma-linked systems in Amarr space. Because it is my highest wish, nay my deepest desire to reinforce, help propagate and validate the 'alts needed to be competitive, more alts for even higher competitiveness' crap that CCP has pushed the past several years.
Pretty much all articles about Eve in both off- and online magazines start with "...fanatical player-base..." which is kind of awesome on its face, but the flipside alludes to said player-base is smaller than it may appear. Think about it, with alts not merely making life easier but being mandatory to play the game if one wants to be competitive the ~500k subscriptions hide the fact that only about half that number of people actually play Eve .. personally think it is even lower than that but 'meh'.
Good news is that CCP has realised the error of their ways and are trying to create proper content and revise old ditto so that alts are relegated to auxiliary roles rather than being necessities. You may not know it, but we had a highly publicized shin-dig in Jita to make CCP change course away from BarbieGäó Online, Gold Ammo and all the other crap they were trying on for size even if only in words .. alts in their current mandatory form are Gold Ammo .. you pay CCP for an advantage against other players.
So no ******* way am I ever going to get a 1B+ probing alt so that I can have a snowballs chance in hell of pinpointing a moving target in the hopes of getting taking a security hit just so I can kill a legitimate WT frigate.
PS: Waffles are awesome in late summer when temperatures start dropping so waffling must be likewise! |
Veskrashen
Justified Chaos
8
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 17:25:00 -
[46] - Quote
It seems to me that there's a few different issues entertwined here:
1) Ability for low SP / risk averse alts to farm lots of LPs in plexes easily; 2) PvP not being the driver of tiers / warzone control; 3) Minimal reward for system upgrades; 4) Minimal incentive for PvE focused FW folks to assist in warzone control.
So maybe we need to differentiate between offensive plexing, defensive plexing, mission LP reward / difficulty, and warzone control / tiers.
For offensive plexing, the issues are that the defending NPCs are pushovers for pretty much any minimally skilled alt, even one with stabs in the lows and a cloak in the highs. Making them overly tough across the board would make things a lot more difficult for "legitimate" low SP players just getting into the swing of things. There's also the issue (expressed in other threads) that there's no relative importance of systems - you get the same LP offensively plexing a backwater system as you do a main militia hub.
For defensive plexing, the issue is that you really don't even have to have guns at all. Zero SP alts with 2 WCS in the lows can deplex as effectively as a 200mil SP character in a 500mil isk pirate frigate. And yet, the rewards (LP wise) are the same. Moreover, it's generally not nearly as efficient to deplex systems unless they're heavily contested - it's almost better to let the enemy flip the system than it is to defend it. If nothing else, you can simply deplex it down to the last 30 seconds or so and let it sit there waiting for someone to put twice as much effort to capturing it.
In addition, there's really minimal reason to upgrade a system unless you want to push it to higher tiers. And very difficult to maintain it once you have it upgraded.
So, perhaps we should change how plex LP is allocated?
Set the LP payout of offensive plexing to some combination of the tier level of the system owner, plus the level of the system upgrade. In other words, you get more LP offensively plexing against militias at higher tiers, and in systems that have been heavily upgraded. This should give folks more incentive to offensively plex against higher tier militias, and in systems that are more heavily upgraded. Moreover, it gives militias a way to define what systems are important - you donate the LP to upgrade a system, you're giving the enemy a reason to come there. This also means that "backwater systems" don't give nearly the same levels of rewards as plexing in places more heavily defended. In addition, you don't get a "farmer cascade" as much since you're not being rewarded based on your faction's tier - you're being rewarded when going against more difficult opponents / factions that have more warzone control.
On the other hand, defensive plexing (being a bit too damn easy on low SP underequipped alts) shouldn't be as rewarding in general. However, since it takes as much time and effort regardless of the level of system contention, I feel it should pay the same regardless. Fix the LP payout of defensive plexing at 50% of Teir 1, regardless of system contention. This could be modified by the upgrade level of the system in question; basing it on the Tier of the holding faction incentivizes low SP farming too much.
Of course, these could easily combine to a situation where people simply don't upgrade systems as much and don't push for higher tiers. To compensate to some degree, you can scale defending NPC difficulty with the system upgrade level. I feel you still need to keep some level of Novice available, that's always amenable to low SP players, simply to ensure there's always a place for them in FW. But in Smalls / Mediums / Larges, things could be much different. As the upgrade level of a system increases, the defending NPCs could be buffed appropriately. More rats doesn't necessarily change much, but making them into more elite versions at higher upgrade levels (say 3/4/5) would make things a lot more interesting. Cloning some of the mission rats, that are tougher and do more damage, would be a good start. At the highest upgrade levels, you could add in not only racial ECM at a reasonable level, but also things like webs and scrams. That would hugely change the dynamic in terms of being able to use poorly skilled underequipped alts to farm easy LPs. In addition, since the LP payout is scaled to system upgrade level, players would reap an appropriate reward for the increased difficulty.
Another adjustment that could be made to further incentivize fights: if you are defensively plexing, and you fight something in the plex while doing so, you should be rewarded. Players who get a weapons timer while in a plex should receive some sort of tag / flag. Should that player capture the plex, they should get a higher LP reward. This should be a percentage of the normal reward for offensive plexing in that plex - say, 75% maybe? This should incentivize people to stay and fight while deplexing, and again reflect the importance of system upgrades.
Mission LP is tricky - pure PvE guys shouldn't get massive gains for only whoring missions. Fix the base LP reward at something between Tier 1 and 2, then scale it based on the upgrade level the mission is taking place in. Friendly system? No bonus. Hostile level 5 system? Hefty bonus. This should make things reflect risk / reward a bit better. Oh, and tweak Caldari / Minmatar missions so they aren't as easily run in effing solo Stealth Bombers. I'd be willing to bet that's where the majority of LPs are earned in FW, and why Cal/Min has as many more players than Gal/Amarr on a regular basis. |
PhatController
Mum Rider Alliance Abandon PlayGrounds
40
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 17:37:00 -
[47] - Quote
Having been in FW for a only a short time (2 weeks), I have noticed that there are some huge problems with the current system, most of which the OP outlined.
Personly I would like to see the bonus to LP from tiers reduced to a mare 2-5% per tier, and second individual tier system for each player that gives a similar bonus, this way those doing the work, get the biggest bonus.
Secondly, once you enter factional warfare, you shouldn't be able to join and opposing factions warfare for X amount of time (1-3 months?) to stop the LP farmers just switching to the highest earning side all the time.
Make Plex's more interesting, eg random spawns of the opposing faction for both defenders and attackers of Plex' systems. |
Dread Operative
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
178
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 23:19:00 -
[48] - Quote
GalMil t1/Caldari t3 = tons of GalMil undocked and fighting, record numbers for kills for multiple GalMil corps.
Caldari t1/GalMil t3 = Black Rise is a squid ghost town.
Just shows who fights when the chips are down and who runs |
Taoist Dragon
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
580
|
Posted - 2013.09.15 00:59:00 -
[49] - Quote
Dread Operative wrote:GalMil t1/Caldari t3 = tons of GalMil undocked and fighting, record numbers for kills for multiple GalMil corps.
Caldari t1/GalMil t3 = Black Rise is a squid ghost town.
Just shows who fights when the chips are down and who runs
WE never stopped fighting....
OOPS I"m a dirty piwate now...... That is the Way, the Tao.
Balance is everything.
http://taoistdragon.blogspot.com.au/ |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1582
|
Posted - 2013.09.15 04:45:00 -
[50] - Quote
Cromwell Savage wrote:I'll be honest - didn't read all replies... Not a fan of the Tier system as well....
LP should be reduce for plexing. I'm for LP gained from plexing...just not so much. Missions should be the main LP bead winner.
Why? Then we'd have people complain about farmers benefiting from FW without doing a damn thing for Occupancy Warfare. How do I know we'd have people complain? 1. They always complain, and 2. They complained about mission runners not contributing but getting LP before LP for plexing was implemented. |
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Cromwell Savage
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
146
|
Posted - 2013.09.15 05:09:00 -
[51] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Cromwell Savage wrote:I'll be honest - didn't read all replies... Not a fan of the Tier system as well....
LP should be reduce for plexing. I'm for LP gained from plexing...just not so much. Missions should be the main LP bead winner.
Why? Then we'd have people complain about farmers benefiting from FW without doing a damn thing for Occupancy Warfare. How do I know we'd have people complain? 1. They always complain, and 2. They complained about mission runners not contributing but getting LP before LP for plexing was implemented.
The 'why' is the part you left out......no risk, cloaked and stabbed LP farming douchetards should not....repeat N_O_T have any impact on sov now that docking rights are tied to it. CCP put the cart in front of the horse on this one big time. Frikkin tying docking rights to FW sov which is controlled by one of the most borked up mechanics in the entire game. Absolutely brilliant ...... Hated the idea then....still hate it now....will hate it tomorrow and the next day.
Yes...I am a very, very bitter vet..... Have been questioning why I am still in FW for quite a while now.... |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1582
|
Posted - 2013.09.15 05:12:00 -
[52] - Quote
Cromwell Savage wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Cromwell Savage wrote:I'll be honest - didn't read all replies... Not a fan of the Tier system as well....
LP should be reduce for plexing. I'm for LP gained from plexing...just not so much. Missions should be the main LP bead winner.
Why? Then we'd have people complain about farmers benefiting from FW without doing a damn thing for Occupancy Warfare. How do I know we'd have people complain? 1. They always complain, and 2. They complained about mission runners not contributing but getting LP before LP for plexing was implemented. The 'why' is the part you left out......no risk, cloaked and stabbed LP farming douchetards should not....repeat N_O_T have any impact on sov now that docking rights are tied to it. CCP put the cart in front of the horse on this one big time. Frikkin tying docking rights to FW sov which is controlled by one of the most borked up mechanics in the entire game. Absolutely brilliant ...... Hated the idea then....still hate it now....will hate it tomorrow and the next day. Yes...I am a very, very bitter vet..... Have been questioning why I am still in FW for quite a while now.... Thing is they don't. When was the last time a cloaky stabbed alt was able to flip Nisuwa? |
Cromwell Savage
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
146
|
Posted - 2013.09.15 05:16:00 -
[53] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Cromwell Savage wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Cromwell Savage wrote:I'll be honest - didn't read all replies... Not a fan of the Tier system as well....
LP should be reduce for plexing. I'm for LP gained from plexing...just not so much. Missions should be the main LP bead winner.
Why? Then we'd have people complain about farmers benefiting from FW without doing a damn thing for Occupancy Warfare. How do I know we'd have people complain? 1. They always complain, and 2. They complained about mission runners not contributing but getting LP before LP for plexing was implemented. The 'why' is the part you left out......no risk, cloaked and stabbed LP farming douchetards should not....repeat N_O_T have any impact on sov now that docking rights are tied to it. CCP put the cart in front of the horse on this one big time. Frikkin tying docking rights to FW sov which is controlled by one of the most borked up mechanics in the entire game. Absolutely brilliant ...... Hated the idea then....still hate it now....will hate it tomorrow and the next day. Yes...I am a very, very bitter vet..... Have been questioning why I am still in FW for quite a while now.... Thing is they don't. When was the last time a cloaky stabbed alt was able to flip Nisuwa?
That's because I...and a few others...spend all of our damn time chasing these fucktards off and deplexing the area. I spend more time chasing farts in the wind than I do getting "real" fights not because I want to...but because I HAVE to due to this fail mechanic. That is NOT what I want out of this game. |
Zarnak Wulf
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
1342
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Posted - 2013.09.15 05:57:00 -
[54] - Quote
Between the emergency patch in October 2012 and the Winter expansion of the same year (Retribution), farming from the Minmatar dried up completely. They had the old style plexes with multiple spawns but the timer would not move as long as they were alive. The farmers were just stopped cold in their tracks. Period. End of story.
People advocating no stabs in plexes are missing the boat. The problem is the plexes are stupid easy. Tie the number of NPC's as well as a number of spawns in plexes to the system upgrade level and you might actually have a purpose to system upgrades. Give them anemic firepower but considerable tanks - just as they are now - and you can get rid of at least some of the farmers. |
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
611
|
Posted - 2013.09.15 16:18:00 -
[55] - Quote
Cromwell Savage wrote:The 'why' is the part you left out......no risk, cloaked and stabbed LP farming douchetards should not....repeat N_O_T have any impact on sov now that docking rights are tied to it. CCP put the cart in front of the horse on this one big time. Frikkin tying docking rights to FW sov which is controlled by one of the most borked up mechanics in the entire game. Absolutely brilliant ...... Hated the idea then....still hate it now....will hate it tomorrow and the next day.
They don't.
It was like you say before the last FW iteration, but now any sov push has some coordinate effort from one or more militia alliances.
Then I know and agree that chasing someone not willing to engage, deplexing and defensive plexing is boring and not rewarded. But that's another issue.
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Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
611
|
Posted - 2013.09.15 16:20:00 -
[56] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote: People advocating no stabs in plexes are missing the boat. The problem is the plexes are stupid easy. Tie the number of NPC's as well as a number of spawns in plexes to the system upgrade level and you might actually have a purpose to system upgrades. Give them anemic firepower but considerable tanks - just as they are now - and you can get rid of at least some of the farmers.
I agree with this. Removing NPC was a major fault. Btw the added income for NPC loot/ tags was a good balancement since is not linked to the tier.
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Cromwell Savage
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
146
|
Posted - 2013.09.15 22:46:00 -
[57] - Quote
Sura Sadiva wrote:Cromwell Savage wrote:The 'why' is the part you left out......no risk, cloaked and stabbed LP farming douchetards should not....repeat N_O_T have any impact on sov now that docking rights are tied to it. CCP put the cart in front of the horse on this one big time. Frikkin tying docking rights to FW sov which is controlled by one of the most borked up mechanics in the entire game. Absolutely brilliant ...... Hated the idea then....still hate it now....will hate it tomorrow and the next day. They don't. It was like you say before the last FW iteration, but now any sov push has some coordinate effort from one or more militia alliances. Then I know and agree that chasing someone not willing to engage, deplexing and defensive plexing is boring and not rewarded. But that's another issue.
Yes...they do.
They consistently push up the contested % across multiple systems (sometimes dramatically) until it becomes an "attainable goal" for the "regular" players to act on. |
Sai Weisman
Biohazard. WINMATAR.
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 17:51:00 -
[58] - Quote
I like the suggestion for waves of NPCs coming into the plexes, which then would require combat ships rather than the current iteration of 'plexing' ships. I also agree that the loot from the NPC drops would marginally offset the Tier difference, making running the now combat-required plexes more profitable to the losing faction.
If only NPCs from the faction that owns the system spawn, however, I see two downsides to this -
The first is that defensive plexing would remain passive, which would mean that the people wanting to AFK plex would only be able to do so in the winning faction, which would both keep the stabbed and/or cloaky and/or AFK farmers in business and add more inertia to the side with the advantage.
The second is that fights inside of plexes benefit the owners of the system more, who already have the home field advantage of being able to choose the right ships to fight what their opponents bring and have the opportunity to use boosting links with even less risk. This also makes holding onto systems through plexing easier, rather than encouraging engagements with hub bash fleets.
I like the idea aside from that, though. Anyone have ideas on addressing these? |
Tetsuo Tsukaya
Pixel Navigators
144
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 18:00:00 -
[59] - Quote
Problem with waves of NPCs is that if the NPCs present any significant challenge, it would heavily skew things against people who actually want to fight. It's bad enough as is having to fight guys with half your shields gone in small plexes after an NPC coercer kites your algos around doing 5,000m/s anytime you tried to scram it. Half the time I just wait on gate for a fight rather than warp in and have to start fights at 80% EHP |
Sai Weisman
Biohazard. WINMATAR.
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 18:24:00 -
[60] - Quote
That's true. I had also thought of having the NPCs deal very little damage, and essentially just serve as HP sponges, but I think that doing something like that would push people towards using ships designed specifically for plexing when they o-plex, which would then be handicapped when engaging in real fights.
I guess ships like these could still provide more interesting content than cloaky ventures, but this still would give the 'defenders' a distinct advantage. |
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