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DarkBluePanther007
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Posted - 2006.01.16 04:34:00 -
[1]
join corporations and steal all their posessions?
Is there any reason it should not be called an exploit?
Real life people who do that sort of thing would have serious legal problems wouldn't they?
I don't want to whine, but this is the second time this happens to my corp.It just stops me from hiring anybody at a responsibility role and that's a shame.
CPP doesn't even let me keep the scammer in my corporation, by giving him roles, until he pays back. They say it's an exploit and I would be banned for doing it. I would like you guys to agree on the fact we should be able to react.
The sort of behaviour doesn't have any ethical or technical reason of being protected I can think of.
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Partisan Ograe
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Posted - 2006.01.16 04:37:00 -
[2]
 signed I think we should beable to report these people to Concord and they put a lean ont heir wallet till we get our money back.
** So, I like mining, whats the big deal? ** |
Seyah Remmus
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Posted - 2006.01.16 07:02:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: DarkBluePanther007
Real life people who do that sort of thing would have serious legal problems wouldn't they?
What about shooting others? Real life people would get imprisoned/death penalty etc.
Eve isnt real life. There are consequences to actions, but they can be avoided.
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Jaketh Ivanes
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Posted - 2006.01.16 07:26:00 -
[4]
Even though I've been in a corp that was victim for a corp theft, the role corp thief is a part of the game and should not be removed. You got the tools to secure your assests (sp?) and should use them.
Yes, there is no sa***uard agenst abused trust and it hurts, but part of the games universe. I would like to see tools for the victim to percecute the thief in some way.
Not sure what way tho, but the use of hot metal is a definate requirement  .
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Hugh Ruka
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Posted - 2006.01.16 08:10:00 -
[5]
Originally by: DarkBluePanther007
join corporations and steal all their posessions?
Is there any reason it should not be called an exploit?
Real life people who do that sort of thing would have serious legal problems wouldn't they?
I don't want to whine, but this is the second time this happens to my corp.It just stops me from hiring anybody at a responsibility role and that's a shame.
CPP doesn't even let me keep the scammer in my corporation, by giving him roles, until he pays back. They say it's an exploit and I would be banned for doing it. I would like you guys to agree on the fact we should be able to react.
The sort of behaviour doesn't have any ethical or technical reason of being protected I can think of.
well I would like to pod the bugger back to 30k sp :-)
the problem are the buggers that join npc corps afterwards. you cannot declare war on them.
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Removed due to offensive content - Laqum
I realy liked my signature. Oh well ... |
HippoKing
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Posted - 2006.01.16 08:15:00 -
[6]
i wouldn't want corpthiefing removed completely, by any stretch of the imagination, but i think that atm, the idea that you can do nothing without concord slaughtering you is a bit ridiculous. how about 3month killrights on thieves, and the character can't be reprocessed in that time?
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Lygos
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Posted - 2006.01.16 08:20:00 -
[7]
You could simply take the initiative yourselves..
Instead of merely screening people, and not trusting them with corporate resources, simply demand that people put up collateral and buy into a corp. If they have to keep things out in 0.0 where the corp has access to them, they may pay a stiff penalty for going awry of local player concieved and enforced law. For "law" to be law, all must be able to come equally before it. To be worthy of it, they must be its enforcers.
That's the only situation in which your brand of justice is well.. Just. EVE may have its own internally consistent "natural" law, and that would extend solely from the player created domain of EVE. It is sui generis from an ethical standpoint, and as such, worthy of inquiry.
No other popular philosophy beyond that of dusty old natural law demands such far reaching protections for various notions of property law as far as I am aware.
Eunoia: The persistent suspicion that the universe is secretly conspiring to quietly improve one's life. |
Sheriff Jones
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Posted - 2006.01.16 08:42:00 -
[8]
I'm just wondering when the old phrase "Trust noone...that includes you" went out the window.
If you trust people, you -might- get a big old thorax up the butty
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Macro Slasher
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Posted - 2006.01.16 13:08:00 -
[9]
Would be awfully dull if thievery was removed. It's a fine respectable profession and should go completely unpunished as well.
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Grimwalius d'Antan
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Posted - 2006.01.16 13:18:00 -
[10]
Hint: Boot the thieves before they get to steal anything. It can't be hard to tell a real player from a thieving alt. If they do manage to conceal their unnatural playing (or, if they actually dedicate themselves to being the character they impose) truly deserves the prize. I endorse all kinds of dedication to things, as long as people put their minds and heart into it.
All this being said however, I don't care much for thieves, but I believe they should be allowed like they are because surpressing their play style would be to remove the freedom which I value more than anything else in life. I oppose all kinds of censorship with a burning spirit.
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.01.16 13:29:00 -
[11]
I think we should "vote for something against" characters who run corporations that don't have any security measures in place at all  
--
Proud member of the [23].
The Tachikomas are DEAD! Click sig for video.
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Fester Addams
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Posted - 2006.01.16 13:56:00 -
[12]
The problem with corp thives is not that they can do it, its the fact that there are no consequences for doing it.
There is also the issue of the game actively fostering mistrust and non cooperation.
I would like to se ways for a corp that has fallen victim to a corp thief to take action against the thief but I very much doubt there will be any such game mechanics entering the game anytime soon.
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R Dan
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Posted - 2006.01.16 13:59:00 -
[13]
Nope, having someone steal all your stuff is annoying. but thats why you can give out roles.
Our corp was also screwed by a corp thief - along time ago now- but he'd only got access to our modules and armoury hangers....hangers that only hold cruiser sized and down. so it wasnt all that bad. Even so since then we treat our noobs with even less rights. many of them only get view rights on the hangers and have to ask for stuff to be given to them.
the devs have given us tools to fight them, so use them.
Bite me....for i taste good :)
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Darius Shakor
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Posted - 2006.01.16 14:31:00 -
[14]
Bottom line! The tools are there to restrict member access to the hangars. It is not an exploit unless they are taking advantage of a bug in that system. If people trust too much then it is their own fault if they get robbed.
It is an element in the game much like war, industry, piracy and trade. It may suck, bot so does getting killed at a gate camp by pirates and having the carcas of your ship picked at for loot like vultures. But the bottom line is, it is a feature in the game and not an exploit when looked at sensibly. CCP never say all game content has to be legaly sound otherwise there would not be contraband flagging either.
------
Shakor Clan Information Portal
Every man has a devil. You can never rest until you find it. |
Clytamnestra
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Posted - 2006.01.16 15:05:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Fester Addams
The problem with corp thives is not that they can do it, its the fact that there are no consequences for doing it.
<snip>
Neither is podding someone, or stealing someone's ore or popping someone's ship at a gate-camp.
The only consequences are those we ourselves enforce. Have you been wronged - retaliate.
I agree, however, that there will always be the problem of alts - in that they can easily steal you blind and then delete their character after having transfered all of their ill-gotten gains to their main. But that's a wholly different matter, and it has been discussed extensively in other threads.
--
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Kurren
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Posted - 2006.01.16 15:15:00 -
[16]
You know, as much as I agree that this sort of stuff should allow us to be punishable, I blame you for it. It's happened twice now. Maybe, and this is only a suggestion, but maybe you shouldn't be putting people you hardly know into the position where they can steal everything from you. Lots of times, you're not the victim of the crime, you're the sap that didn't learn from the first time.
But, it does happen, and we should be able to retaliate to it. I am in agreance with that.
Ways to keep this stuff from happening:
1) small corp with only people you've known for a while
2) only invite personal friends/family
3) ask the CEO's of a few of his past corps about his work record (references type thing)
4) never hire somebody that is brand new (not all noobies are corp thieves, but lots of new characters or just alts of people that are).
*************************************************
Sobakai Resources, here for you! |
Uggster
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Posted - 2006.01.16 15:23:00 -
[17]
The simple and most effective solution would be to make reassining roles to the thief NOT a pertitionable offence.
This would mean that a thief could run but not hide, he/she could be hunted by all the other members and podded at will by them. If the thief was clever or the corp stupid he/she could do the crime and escape, if not then that person is in a lot of trouble.
To allow a RL "Boo Hoo I cant log on without haveing to run around everywhere CCP please come and save me" event (a pertition, it goes to a REAL person not an in-game one) to have an effect on an in-game crime is crazy.
Can a miner pertition over piracy or gate ganking ? No.
So why should a thief be able to pertition over his/her in-game actions. 
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Tony Fats
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Posted - 2006.01.16 15:26:00 -
[18]
Why are you giving people access to things and then whining when they take it?
Giving someone access to something means "Here, take this."
If they take it and leave, who do you have to blame except yourself?
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DarkBluePanther007
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Posted - 2006.01.16 18:39:00 -
[19]
I really don't understand why you guys are protecting this type of behaviour. Do some of you sincerely believe that a guy who robs a corp enrichens the game?
I didn't loose more than 50 mill in the operation I admit it, but I wish CCP would just give me the right to keep the guy in my corp, by giving him roles.
I don't understand why his robbing shouldn't be condemned, and my not willing to let him go should be...
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Kaene Rae
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Posted - 2006.01.16 18:53:00 -
[20]
"but this is the second time this happens to my corp"
Security measures FTW!
1. To get hangar access/potential for a sensitive role, recruits in my corp have put in 30 days of active service. To be elligible for Senior Management they have to become a full member of my multigame/FPS clan.
2. Check their employment history, if they claim to be new but have an employment history 4 pages long..... One of 'em went pop when he tried to pull that on us
3. Google their username when you recruit, caught a griefer once that way by a post of his on the forums here, he went pop too.
4. (Is it still down?) Don't recruit on the recruiting channel, and if you do it on the forums do it under an alt so as to not call attention to your corp.
5. Be very wary of any recruit, whose first question is "So what about getting access to the hangar?"
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Soren
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Posted - 2006.01.16 19:10:00 -
[21]
This isn't a democracy.
_______________________________________________
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Sam Albertek
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Posted - 2006.01.16 19:15:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Sam Albertek on 16/01/2006 19:16:26
Originally by: Seyah Remmus
Originally by: DarkBluePanther007
Real life people who do that sort of thing would have serious legal problems wouldn't they?
What about shooting others? Real life people would get imprisoned/death penalty etc.
Eve isnt real life. There are consequences to actions, but they can be avoided.
In real life theft from a company you work with is illegal. it should be in eve. obviously a character can get away with it, but PKing shouldnt be the only reason players get bounties. if concord is a law enforcment agency, they should enforce no stealing from your corp
so yeah, i signed this. but i disagree that it should be considered an exploit. it should just be considered a crime and lower your sec status and be a reason for a bounty. or something like that.
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Tony Fats
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Posted - 2006.01.16 19:16:00 -
[23]
Originally by: DarkBluePanther007
I really don't understand why you guys are protecting this type of behaviour. Do some of you sincerely believe that a guy who robs a corp enrichens the game?
I didn't loose more than 50 mill in the operation I admit it, but I wish CCP would just give me the right to keep the guy in my corp, by giving him roles.
I don't understand why his robbing shouldn't be condemned, and my not willing to let him go should be...
That's not the issue.
The issue is that you should be able to screw up. You should be able to place your trust in people who don't deserve it. You should be able to get robbed and mugged. People should be able to damage your corporation, and you should be able to damage theirs. Real damage, not just ghay "corp war dec", you should be able to really destroy a corp.
Unfortunately at this time there is no way to destroy 1 person in a newbie corp.
Make a way to be able to hunt 1 person in a newbie corp, and that should help the situation nicely.
If you're trying to say "Why should there be robbery" well think about this, there are lots of experiences in this game that are unpleasant for someone, should we remove them?
Lets remove piracy too.
Lets remove gate ganking.
Lets remove camping.
Lets remove wardec.
Lets remove market.
All of these things cause someone's feelings to be hurt, cause loss of ships and clones, cause someone to undercut you and cause financial loss, does that mean they should be reduced or removed?
Yes robbery sucks, but the game gives you tools to prevent it.
So if you get corp robbed, whose fault is it?
Your own.
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Viruzzz2
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Posted - 2006.01.16 19:17:00 -
[24]
just do what our CEO is doing. sort the things into different hanagr spots. but keep one clean. then move it to that space when someone has asked, and been aloowed to grab it.
its not that our CEO don't trust us. but we are a few who know eachother from elsewhere. he wants to sort of "keep everyone even"..
hell i eve have his account info from a point in time where he couldn't log on. i was doing skill training.
but yea. being victim of a corp thieving sucks. but if you let it happen a second time. its your own fault. don't think its not your fault the first time, but people tend to make mistakes when they are new :)
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Viruzzz2
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Posted - 2006.01.16 19:19:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Sam Albertek
Edited by: Sam Albertek on 16/01/2006 19:16:26
Originally by: Seyah Remmus
Originally by: DarkBluePanther007
Real life people who do that sort of thing would have serious legal problems wouldn't they?
What about shooting others? Real life people would get imprisoned/death penalty etc.
Eve isnt real life. There are consequences to actions, but they can be avoided.
In real life theft from a company you work with is illegal. it should be in eve. obviously a character can get away with it, but PKing shouldnt be the only reason players get bounties. if concord is a law enforcment agency, they should enforce no stealing from your corp
so yeah, i signed this. but i disagree that it should be considered an exploit. it should just be considered a crime and lower your sec status and be a reason for a bounty. or something like that.
how do you tell the game to discriminate between thieving and allowed taking. i don't think thats very easy :)
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Happysin
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Posted - 2006.01.16 19:23:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Soren
This isn't a democracy.
Actually, you are entirely within your rights to make your corp a democracy. Just don't expect the rest of us to wait on the voting.
I think corp thievery is valid, but I also think an allownace to kill in empire afterward is not unreasonable. Thing is, how do you set up a game mechanic for that?
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sallyr
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Posted - 2006.01.16 19:25:00 -
[27]
any1 stupid enough to give a new corp member access to anything worth having is very very stupid
you can normaly tell the corp jumpers
just find there last ceo
thats what some guy did with me
he convoed me and asked me about this guy who had joined my corp and nicked a few things.
within a week i had 5 corpses a bunch of loot from his ships
and the satisfaction of knowing that i had just made 3 months of a little **** work all go to waste.
oh and he came back to see me to reapply
. . . i let him in
. . . hunted him down
. . . and poped his ass
. . . then scrambled his pod and went afk for a Very long time!
(\_/)
(O.o)
(> <)
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DukDodgerz
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Posted - 2006.01.16 19:53:00 -
[28]
Originally by: HippoKing
i wouldn't want corpthiefing removed completely, by any stretch of the imagination, but i think that atm, the idea that you can do nothing without concord slaughtering you is a bit ridiculous. how about 3month killrights on thieves, and the character can't be reprocessed in that time?
once the victimized corp reports the thief to concord, the thief can not trade goods or move isk to another player. NPC market will refuse to take isk from them also due to being a flagged criminal. Only means to buy for the 3 month term is to goto 0.0 stations.
Makes sense to treat a thief as a criminal in empire.
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Soren
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Posted - 2006.01.16 20:15:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Happysin
Originally by: Soren
This isn't a democracy.
Actually, you are entirely within your rights to make your corp a democracy. Just don't expect the rest of us to wait on the voting.
I think corp thievery is valid, but I also think an allownace to kill in empire afterward is not unreasonable. Thing is, how do you set up a game mechanic for that?
I was referring to the CCP / player relationship.
_______________________________________________
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Lygos
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Posted - 2006.01.17 03:11:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Fester Addams
There is also the issue of the game actively fostering mistrust and non cooperation.
I would like to se ways for a corp that has fallen victim to a corp thief to take action against the thief but I very much doubt there will be any such game mechanics entering the game anytime soon.
The nice mechanic at work here is that one is able to demonstrate their genuinely trustable nature to persons of their choice. Quit recruiting new players because they have nothing to lose by taking abandoned possessions for their own use.
Maybe the whole corporate model is flawed. Right now it works too much like a clan. The relationships between individuals is too blurry, and contracting tools are too simple. I would not mind a purely "mercenary"
or raw business relationship with other coworkers. EVE is supposed to be escapist fantasy, so having to make friends with other people rather than buy and sell their loyalties is rather limiting.
Eunoia: The persistent suspicion that the universe is secretly conspiring to quietly improve one's life. |
Fester Addams
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Posted - 2006.01.17 15:09:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Clytamnestra
Originally by: Fester Addams
The problem with corp thives is not that they can do it, its the fact that there are no consequences for doing it.
<snip>
Neither is podding someone, or stealing someone's ore or popping someone's ship at a gate-camp.
The only consequences are those we ourselves enforce. Have you been wronged - retaliate.
I agree, however, that there will always be the problem of alts - in that they can easily steal you blind and then delete their character after having transfered all of their ill-gotten gains to their main. But that's a wholly different matter, and it has been discussed extensively in other threads.
But there are consequences for all the things you listed and some have even been upgraded in this last patch.
If you pop a ship or pod someone they will have an eye for an eye rights in addition to you getting a sec hit.
If you steal ore from a person that person can shoot you without having to worry about concord or sec hits.
A person that joins a corp, weasles him/herself into a position of trust and cleans out the hangars and/or corp wallet gets off clean, no sec hit, no retaliation rights no nothing, the perp can sit in a pod just outside the station and taunt his former corp mates and know that if they attack concord will avenge him.
I dont know what needs to be implemented, the only variants I can think of have to be GM monitored but I would guess nomatter what is done players will find ways round it to steal, I supose its the nature of online gaming, you can be the ******* that destroys for others and get away with it and its ok because its just a game :)
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Istvaan Shogaatsu
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Posted - 2006.01.17 15:16:00 -
[32]
I hereby veto this proposal.
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MC AMARR
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Posted - 2006.01.17 16:02:00 -
[33]
Edited by: MC AMARR on 17/01/2006 16:03:04
Glad Istavaan posted here, because he and his corpmates are the kind of corp thieves of whom i fully approve.
I dislike the griefers who join a corp with a noob alt, rob em, transfer the isk and quit. Thats low, and cheap gameplay. If you are going to pull a big heist on a corp, have the balls to stay ingame, under the same name. Make it a gameplay thing. Even if you remain in a nub corp for the rest of your eve life, thats punishment enough in some people's books. And in EVE reputation means a lot. Name and (possibly) shame the thieves.
(btw GHSC, that wasn't an invitation to come rob me...)
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Quanteeri
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Posted - 2006.01.17 17:31:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Quanteeri on 17/01/2006 17:31:53
Honestly now, how many means of protecting personal interests does CCP have to implement before people start using them. Shi-ot!
You can lock down BP's, can give divisional perms by char, have about 20 different types of secure/audit containers to choose from, etc, etc.
I've been in a corp that had things stolen (nothing impressive, just annoying), and it was our fault, not CCP's for making it possible.
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Amaii Templ
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Posted - 2006.01.18 02:30:00 -
[35]
I think I'm entitled to the title "Honest newbie."
I have assets on my character, totaling about, at the outside, 30 million ISK.
The other day, my corpmate dropped around 250 Millions ISK worth of stuff in my personal hangar. I had no roles, I could have quit the corp then and there, blocked them all, they woulden't have been able to touch me.
It no sooner hit the board-room desk in my head (presented by Personality 17, the Rogue,) than it was unanimously veto'd. (This is just a metaphor; guess the webcomic I stole it from.)
Seriously. Not even 250 million ISK, not even a billion ISK or a Titan would be worth betraying my mates. ISK can be bought and sold (via timecard,) ships can be had...
But friends are hard to get. (Though maybe if it was an Imperial Apocalpyse or a Golden Magnate.... Naaaaah. Just would'a begged to be allowed to fly it through Empire space once before I returned it. :P)
But yes. Corp Theives need to be dealt with. There needs to be some mechanism to deal with them. If I pop your egg, can you not serve me sunny-side up? If I pinch from your can, can you not ream me with your Apocalpyse?
So why, if I clean out your corp, should you not be able to hunt me down like the thieving dog I am?
The problem is how to enforce it fairly, without leaving the gates wide open for abuse. Obviously, while the idea of constantly using roles to keep someone in the corp so you can pod the craptaculatta out of them is temping, it is ultimately abusable. You don't get to pod me if I steal from your can, and you don't get permanant kill rights on me if I scramble you and put you in a Steak, Egg & Cheese bagel. (Speaking of which, now I want another of those divine sandwiches.)
But corp theievery is much, much more serious than podding or ore thieving. I would suggest that for an entire week - 168 hours - of time spent in-game (and in space), the corp thief should be flagged as killable to the corp. This does, of course, raise problems of griefing. Say you left your corp to join another corp, and your old corp wasen't happy about that. Say you didn't like the way your corp was going, and split.
It's not a perfect soloution. But it's somewhere to start brainstorming. (Mmmmmm... Bagel...)
[urll=http://photobucket.com/albums/v323/ShadowDragon8685/?action=view¤t=Hauler.jpg]My Sunday Indy[/url] |
Schiklegruber
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Posted - 2006.01.18 02:55:00 -
[36]
Though I detest corp-thieves, I would not want to see it made completely impossible. It makes trust much more valuable in this game.
It's not that you just pick up a few fellow Orcs to run a dungeon in EVE, you establish elationships/pacts/bussiness agreements with the other players. If the opposite (thievery/betrayal/etc) didnt exist, these values would mean a lot less.
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Amaii Templ
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Posted - 2006.01.18 03:06:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Schiklegruber
Though I detest corp-thieves, I would not want to see it made completely impossible. It makes trust much more valuable in this game.
It's not that you just pick up a few fellow Orcs to run a dungeon in EVE, you establish elationships/pacts/bussiness agreements with the other players. If the opposite (thievery/betrayal/etc) didnt exist, these values would mean a lot less.
But the ability to get away scott-free should not exist, either.
[urll=http://photobucket.com/albums/v323/ShadowDragon8685/?action=view¤t=Hauler.jpg]My Sunday Indy[/url] |
Plan Neun
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Posted - 2006.01.19 09:52:00 -
[38]
Originally by: MC AMARR
Edited by: MC AMARR on 17/01/2006 16:03:04
Glad Istavaan posted here, because he and his corpmates are the kind of corp thieves of whom i fully approve.
I dislike the griefers who join a corp with a noob alt, rob em, transfer the isk and quit. Thats low, and cheap gameplay. If you are going to pull a big heist on a corp, have the balls to stay ingame, under the same name. Make it a gameplay thing. Even if you remain in a nub corp for the rest of your eve life, thats punishment enough in some people's books. And in EVE reputation means a lot. Name and (possibly) shame the thieves.
(btw GHSC, that wasn't an invitation to come rob me...)
I absolutely agree with you Mr Mc Amarr.
It is the corporations responsibilty to secure their assets. If a (thiev) person manage to get into a high possition, its says a lot about the management and even more about their security and intel. If a corporation have a good organisation regarding securing their assets, corp theft will only apply to a minimum. Spectacular theft will be virtual impossible.
"I Will Drug You and Fluff You, through the permafrost"
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Corp Scammer
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Posted - 2006.01.19 09:59:00 -
[39]
i totally disagree i should be able to rob and scam any corp without active security measures please CCP dont link alts or anything like that to the info screen lol.
Note sarcasim
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