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Danny John-Peter
Stay Frosty.
299
|
Posted - 2013.09.24 08:51:00 -
[1] - Quote
Having been looking recently at the ships I and others have been flying I have a question for the Eve community.
Do Medium ACs need some sort of buff?
It feels like they should do well in the area between 5-15k on a non range-bonused hull and 15-25k on a range bonused hull, but this simply isn't the case, they have awful projection even with a falloff bonus a-la Vaga/Cyna/Stabber while lacking the raw damage and tracking of Blasters. They feel like the weapon system that tries to do everything and ends up being good at nothing. Even null performs better than barrage in a lot of circumstances these days.
So, is it a problem, and if so how do we fix it, a raw damage increase would probably be in-appropriate, falloff boost maybe or a buff to Barrage, I'm not sure, but they do feel like they lack something compared to the other weapons in the class (Blasters, loldeeps/null, Lasers, lolscorch). |

Christine Peeveepeeski
The Imperial Fedaykin Amarrian Commandos
305
|
Posted - 2013.09.24 09:11:00 -
[2] - Quote
Hmm, well I use my medium AC's a lot and I see no issue with them. They give me selectable damage type out to a decent range. Granted kiting with ammo that isn't barrage is not so easy now at lower gun sizes due to the TE nerf (pulls you much closer to being OH webbed) but I've designed the ships I fly with AC round that now.
I think all it means is that it's not the 'catch all' weapon it used to be although it is still a great weapon system. The issue is that in this min/max, cookie cutter EVE world most optimized ships are built for 1 roll. AC's are now no longer the optimal weapon for 1 roll (arguably their strength was that they were the optimal weapon for medium AND short range back in the day), they are however very flexible.
Thus the decline of the AC boat and the rise of missile/rail kiters and blaster brawlers.
I prefer flexibility, more fights open up that way heh :)
|

Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
257
|
Posted - 2013.09.24 09:44:00 -
[3] - Quote
I'd really deny that.
ACs are the bread&butter on nearly all minmatar-vessels and for their very low fittings, they are even a top choice to mount onto unbonused turret-slots. While their raw damage is pisspoor, their application questionable and the ammoconsumption makes for some grey hairs, GåÆ they also are one of a few weapon systems with 'selectable' damage, and medium ACs cover the full web-scram-range quite smoothly while having one of the better tracking values :)
One could argue that blasters loaded with null are just better autocannons though...
I think autocannons are perfectly fine. The 10-15% raw damage you are loosing compared to blasters with null when shooting PP/EMP/Fusion is acceptable I guess. (ions vs 220s) https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3633385&#post3633385
- 15% more tank since the 1.1-patch. |

To mare
Advanced Technology
253
|
Posted - 2013.09.24 11:03:00 -
[4] - Quote
blaster are better than AC on all sizes not only on medium guns, plus ccp keep boosting gall hulls and nerf minmatar ones, personally being capable to fly all races with equal skills i almost never fly minmatar ships even if my char was born as minmatar and im very attached to them but there is no reason to fly minmatar ship other than role play |

Dato Koppla
Veni Vidi Evassi
301
|
Posted - 2013.09.24 12:57:00 -
[5] - Quote
It's funny, I feel like we've come full circle on the nerf/buff cycle. When I first started the game it was 'Go Minmatar or go home' or 'AC kiters are OP' and all that stuff, because ACs had just been buffed and were top of their game, people were crying for buffs for blasters and gallente everywhere and nerfs for ACs.
Now that CCP has finally answered their calls, Minmatar has been left in the dust and now this thread marks the start of players calling for buffs on what was previously known as Winmatar.
And the cycle restarts..... |

Danny John-Peter
Stay Frosty.
300
|
Posted - 2013.09.24 14:27:00 -
[6] - Quote
Well, to be honest, you would think they could get to the point where they are happy with every weapon systems. |

Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
11810
|
Posted - 2013.09.24 14:40:00 -
[7] - Quote
Danny John-Peter wrote:Having been looking recently at the ships I and others have been flying I have a question for the Eve community.
Do Medium ACs need some sort of buff?
It feels like they should do well in the area between 5-15k on a non range-bonused hull and 15-25k on a range bonused hull, but this simply isn't the case, they have awful projection even with a falloff bonus a-la Vaga/Cyna/Stabber while lacking the raw damage and tracking of Blasters. They feel like the weapon system that tries to do everything and ends up being good at nothing. Even null performs better than barrage in a lot of circumstances these days.
So, is it a problem, and if so how do we fix it, a raw damage increase would probably be in-appropriate, falloff boost maybe or a buff to Barrage, I'm not sure, but they do feel like they lack something compared to the other weapons in the class (Blasters, loldeeps/null, Lasers, lolscorch).
On the other hand they're very easy to fit, don't use any cap, have large ammo capacity and you have a decent choice of damage types.
1 Kings 12:11
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Liam Todd Bloodstar
The Dothraki
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.24 16:30:00 -
[8] - Quote
Dato Koppla wrote:It's funny, I feel like we've come full circle on the nerf/buff cycle. When I first started the game it was 'Go Minmatar or go home' or 'AC kiters are OP' and all that stuff, because ACs had just been buffed and were top of their game, people were crying for buffs for blasters and gallente everywhere and nerfs for ACs.
Now that CCP has finally answered their calls, Minmatar has been left in the dust and now this thread marks the start of players calling for buffs on what was previously known as Winmatar.
And the cycle restarts.....
Lol when I started, Torps were the weapon of choice... Then followed by Blasters... Then followed by AC's... Then followed by Lasers... Then back to AC's.... Now back to Blasters... |

Eggs Ackley
12
|
Posted - 2013.09.24 17:01:00 -
[9] - Quote
I use 'em on my Loki and they seem to work fine. I will allow a buff though. |

Lucine Delacourt
The Covenant of Blood
28
|
Posted - 2013.09.24 17:12:00 -
[10] - Quote
I have to assume the OP either doesn't fly a Vaga/SFI/Cyna/Loki or he is just trying to get a free buff. Medium AC's are fine. They cost practically nothing to fit, are capless, and have variable damage type. Hard to call for a buff when they are already used on 90% of the unbonused hulls. |

Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1425
|
Posted - 2013.09.24 17:34:00 -
[11] - Quote
Null gives blasters too much range taking away the only real advantage AC's had. BYDI recruitment closed-ish |

Rengerel en Distel
1931
|
Posted - 2013.09.24 17:54:00 -
[12] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:Null gives blasters too much range taking away the only real advantage AC's had.
except for the fitting, no cap, and variable damage advantages?
With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
|

Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1426
|
Posted - 2013.09.24 17:57:00 -
[13] - Quote
Rengerel en Distel wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:Null gives blasters too much range taking away the only real advantage AC's had. except for the fitting, no cap, and variable damage advantages?
Fitting are mostly offset by ship fitting (Ac's do have silly low fittings though) Variable damage mostly helps with t2 stuff and the cap thing is highly situational.
I don't think AC's need a big buff however.. Maybe a tiny one, id rather see a proper t2 ammo rebalance though. BYDI recruitment closed-ish |

Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
945
|
Posted - 2013.09.24 18:07:00 -
[14] - Quote
I don't think Null blasters are particularly good at range. Certain range-bonused hulls can kind of get away with kiting (a lot of blaster boats have falloff bonuses), but even then their range projection will still be worse than autos. If that's a problem, then you should change the bonuses on blaster platforms. |

Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1427
|
Posted - 2013.09.24 18:46:00 -
[15] - Quote
Kahega Amielden wrote:I don't think Null blasters are particularly good at range. Certain range-bonused hulls can kind of get away with kiting (a lot of blaster boats have falloff bonuses), but even then their range projection will still be worse than autos. If that's a problem, then you should change the bonuses on blaster platforms.
Ac's aren't great at range either
they never were and they are worse now with the TE nerf. BYDI recruitment closed-ish |

Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
946
|
Posted - 2013.09.24 18:48:00 -
[16] - Quote
They aren't fantastic at range, but they're certainly better than blasters. They're not supposed to be great at range, because then they step on the toes of long-range weapon systems. Mediums autos, however, can still very comfortably hit to 20km. |

Taoist Dragon
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
585
|
Posted - 2013.09.24 21:17:00 -
[17] - Quote
Here we go again 
With the buff to all the medium long range guns of course the medium short range guns are gonna feel slightly weak. But that is as it should be. Medium autos still have all the plus points of auto (damage selectability, no cap etc) and they can still hit out to point range (24km) fairly consistantly.
A lot of people seem to think that the autos are some kind of god gun being able to hit anywhere and kill anything.
Here's a hint....they never were! If you are kiting anything with auto's you'll be lucky to be actually applying anything near to 50% of your 'paper' dps to your target.
Auto's are still a very forgiving and flexible weapon system stop whining that long range weapons systems now out perfrom them at long range.  That is the Way, the Tao.
Balance is everything.
http://taoistdragon.blogspot.com.au/ |

Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
947
|
Posted - 2013.09.24 21:22:00 -
[18] - Quote
Quote:Here's a hint....they never were! If you are kiting anything with auto's you'll be lucky to be actually applying anything near to 50% of your 'paper' dps to your target.
This is not true, there are plenty of hulls that are good at it. However, they usually have range bonuses and/or fit a bunch of range mods (vaga for example) |

Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1230
|
Posted - 2013.09.24 22:11:00 -
[19] - Quote
To mare wrote:blaster are better than AC on all sizes not only on medium guns, plus ccp keep boosting gall hulls and nerf minmatar ones, personally being capable to fly all races with equal skills i almost never fly minmatar ships even if my char was born as minmatar and im very attached to them but there is no reason to fly minmatar ship other than role play
Matar are not nerf, they're just not the "only good choice" any more. When autocanons were better than blasters at blasters job did you guys complain about it? -nope
Just because you guys were not used to doesn't means blasters are OP or over buff, blasters got their right spot despite at large size autocanons and pulses shooting at twice the distance of blasters which means further than rails optimal.
Stop complaining about everything and think a bit plz. *removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |

Taoist Dragon
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
586
|
Posted - 2013.09.24 23:48:00 -
[20] - Quote
Kahega Amielden wrote:Quote:Here's a hint....they never were! If you are kiting anything with auto's you'll be lucky to be actually applying anything near to 50% of your 'paper' dps to your target.
This is not true, there are plenty of hulls that are good at it. However, they usually have range bonuses and/or fit a bunch of range mods (vaga for example)
Yeah true but the point being is that any kitey AC ship is NOT doing their paper dps to their target. pure and simple. kiting with AC's is all about consistant if slightly lower damage and the ability to disengage if needed. That is the Way, the Tao.
Balance is everything.
http://taoistdragon.blogspot.com.au/ |

Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
948
|
Posted - 2013.09.25 00:37:00 -
[21] - Quote
Sure, but you'll be doing a lot more than 50% of your paper DPS. |

Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1427
|
Posted - 2013.09.25 00:59:00 -
[22] - Quote
Kahega Amielden wrote:Sure, but you'll be doing a lot more than 50% of your paper DPS.
The vagabond is really the only one that has decent range and dps on autos.. Excluding large autos of course. BYDI recruitment closed-ish |

To mare
Advanced Technology
254
|
Posted - 2013.09.25 06:04:00 -
[23] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:Kahega Amielden wrote:Sure, but you'll be doing a lot more than 50% of your paper DPS. The vagabond is really the only one that has decent range and dps on autos.. Excluding large autos of course. and its one of the crappiest hac, now that everything else got buffed
|

Jonas Staal
Interstellar Booty Hunters
13
|
Posted - 2013.09.25 10:30:00 -
[24] - Quote
Rengerel en Distel wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:Null gives blasters too much range taking away the only real advantage AC's had. except for the fitting, no cap, and variable damage advantages?
I always wonder about this.
What does variable damage advantage bring against omni-tanked opponants? |

Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
91
|
Posted - 2013.09.25 11:51:00 -
[25] - Quote
Many ships have resist holes, and if you are familiar enough with the hull you can ascertain from a cookie cutter fit which ammo to choose. EHPpDT stats vary wildly from hull to hull and from one application to another. |

Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
259
|
Posted - 2013.09.25 12:04:00 -
[26] - Quote
Big Issues with different guns though is the ammo, and how (near ?) identical penalties to those t2-ammo sorts just render some useless, and some OP.
Just Scorch is strongly overpowered and is in desperate need of a rangenerf or damagenerf. Currently Scorch is to good. It's so good I dropped said-to-be-OP ACs a long time ago, even when they were still called OP, just to get dat scorch loaded. Blasters using null are better on ALL accounts compared to autocannons (similiar tracking, more usable range, drastically higher damage output) Rage/Javelin ammo are imo both good, javelins drastically increase your range, while the drawbacks of rage ammo are - in space - not noticable compared to navy, that though is my perception.
Hail is just ********, even with higher paper-dps it's still the WRONG choice over fusion. Barrage is way to weak compared to RF ammo on similiar ranges. It's nice though to tickle things beyond RF range, though that's about it. Both ammosorts wuold rather be fine if they were to be pure explosive, but with that kin/exp mix, they're just crap.
Autocannons are acceptable thanks to selectable damage type and capless guns, the huge magazine is wayne, as your RoF is crazy aswell, that's not a pro. So selectable damage, the one thing ACs don't suck terribly at, thankfully that trait is strong enough to equalize the disadvantages.
Bertrand Butler wrote:Many ships have resist holes, and if you are familiar enough with the hull you can ascertain from a cookie cutter fit which ammo to choose. EHPpDT stats vary wildly from hull to hull and from one application to another.
Moreover, if you use a ship that projects a fixed damage type, there are a number of hulls that are out of reach to you due to racial hull resists. With flexible ammo, you can engage them better.
If you are just hitting him with autocannons, you could actually also hit him for real, actual damage, using scorch or certainly better using null on a similiar designed blasterboat. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3633385&#post3633385 - 15% more tank since the 1.1-patch. |

Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1429
|
Posted - 2013.09.25 12:19:00 -
[27] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote:Big Issues with different guns though is the ammo, and how (near ?) identical penalties to those t2-ammo sorts just render some useless, and some OP. Just Scorch is strongly overpowered and is in desperate need of a rangenerf or damagenerf. Currently Scorch is to good. It's so good I dropped said-to-be-OP ACs a long time ago, even when they were still called OP, just to get dat scorch loaded. Blasters using null are better on ALL accounts compared to autocannons (similiar tracking, more usable range, drastically higher damage output) Rage/Javelin ammo are imo both good, javelins drastically increase your range, while the drawbacks of rage ammo are - in space - not noticable compared to navy, that though is my perception. Hail is just ********, even with higher paper-dps it's still the WRONG choice over fusion. Barrage is way to weak compared to RF ammo on similiar ranges. It's nice though to tickle things beyond RF range, though that's about it. Both ammosorts wuold rather be fine if they were to be pure explosive, but with that kin/exp mix, they're just crap. Autocannons are acceptable thanks to selectable damage type and capless guns, the huge magazine is wayne, as your RoF is crazy aswell, that's not a pro. So selectable damage, the one thing ACs don't suck terribly at, thankfully that trait is strong enough to equalize the disadvantages. Bertrand Butler wrote:Many ships have resist holes, and if you are familiar enough with the hull you can ascertain from a cookie cutter fit which ammo to choose. EHPpDT stats vary wildly from hull to hull and from one application to another.
Moreover, if you use a ship that projects a fixed damage type, there are a number of hulls that are out of reach to you due to racial hull resists. With flexible ammo, you can engage them better. If you are just hitting him with autocannons, you could actually also hit him for real, actual damage, using scorch or certainly better using null on a similiar designed blasterboat.
I think all T2 ammo should get the same kind of penalties as long range t2 ammo
T2 ammo is supposed to be niche and specialized, not something you use 80% the time. BYDI recruitment closed-ish |

Jonas Staal
Interstellar Booty Hunters
13
|
Posted - 2013.09.25 12:29:00 -
[28] - Quote
Bertrand Butler wrote:Many ships have resist holes, and if you are familiar enough with the hull you can ascertain from a cookie cutter fit which ammo to choose. EHPpDT stats vary wildly from hull to hull and from one application to another.
Moreover, if you use a ship that projects a fixed damage type, there are a number of hulls that are out of reach to you due to racial hull resists. With flexible ammo, you can engage them better.
I'm kind of confused now.
Are we talking about kiting with faction ammo (serious range penalty) or barrage (low dmg + non-selectable damage type) ? |

Logical Chaos
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
58
|
Posted - 2013.09.25 12:55:00 -
[29] - Quote
Yeah it's obvious. Since Lasers are untouched for years they require a nerf. Everybody is only flying laserboats nowadays, do Minmatar boats even exist?
Oh wait:
RankShipsKills 1 Hound 55,026 2 Manticore 39,899 3 Tornado 33,848 4 Ishtar 32,989 5 Naga 31,193 6 Purifier 30,720 7 Nemesis 26,325 8 Dominix 25,753 9 Sabre 25,430 10 Talos 24,534 11 Oracle 24,267 12 Caracal 23,568 13 Thrasher 22,203 14 Loki 22,058 15 Tengu 21,713 16 Proteus 21,487 17 Thorax 20,631 18 Talwar 19,766 19 Vexor 19,628 20 Hurricane 19,111 |

March rabbit
epTa Team Inc.
775
|
Posted - 2013.09.25 13:02:00 -
[30] - Quote
Liam Todd Bloodstar wrote:Dato Koppla wrote:It's funny, I feel like we've come full circle on the nerf/buff cycle. When I first started the game it was 'Go Minmatar or go home' or 'AC kiters are OP' and all that stuff, because ACs had just been buffed and were top of their game, people were crying for buffs for blasters and gallente everywhere and nerfs for ACs.
Now that CCP has finally answered their calls, Minmatar has been left in the dust and now this thread marks the start of players calling for buffs on what was previously known as Winmatar.
And the cycle restarts..... Lol when I started, Torps were the weapon of choice... Then followed by Blasters... Then followed by AC's... Then followed by Lasers... Then back to AC's.... Now back to Blasters... you mean Torps missed their turn?  |
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