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HendriX
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Posted - 2003.08.25 08:38:00 -
[1]
As many of you know, insurance fraud is widely used in eve, even if you didin't know about, just go into the trade channel and say you're selling a Moa for 5.4 mil and some smartass will say "kikiki, why don't you just get insurance then blow it up, kikiki:)" , this is 100% guranteed.
My question to you fellow Eve players and Dev's:
Why doesn't the insurance system just give you back the ship you insured, would that not solve the problem?
Thank you,
HendriX
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Thallia
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Posted - 2003.08.25 09:13:00 -
[2]
Another solution would be to make the insurance work as in RL.
You blow it up one time, ok, but the fee increases as you blow your ships up.
Bad pilots might pay for their lame skills 
--
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Vidar Kentoran
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Posted - 2003.08.25 09:55:00 -
[3]
I don't see how it's a "problem". There are much better ways of making money, that are a lot easier.
Insurance is fine the way it is.
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Lucas De'Thal
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Posted - 2003.08.25 10:04:00 -
[4]
i agree, it's fine the way it is.
everybody seems to forget the time it takes to acquire the minerals to make the ship. then just to blow it up and receive only a couple hundred thousand isk more in return is not worth it IMHO.
although, you never know, so people don't count their time as valuable i guess. but i don't see it as a big problem.
______________________________________________
Hellmar > sorry for the attitude, playing a n00b character through the current state just left me a bit bitter
dev chat: Mar 18, 2004
hellmar> "you lot are just so clever you have a good history for out smarting us :-S "
dev chat: Feb 12, 2004 |
Diaego
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Posted - 2003.08.25 10:14:00 -
[5]
The current system at the moment, only allows at the most, a few 100K ISK profit... The time it takes to buy say a MOA on the market, fly to the point to pick it up and then destroy it takes far longer to make a few 100K than say, mining or pirate hunting.
Diaego
Assistant Team Leader
Polaris Player Support |
Slipstream
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Posted - 2003.08.25 11:06:00 -
[6]
 Quote:
Why doesn't the insurance system just give you back the ship you insured, would that not solve the problem?
Yuk .. it would, but it would also kill off a lot of business from ship-building corporations ..
And that's bad. 
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nono
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Posted - 2003.08.25 11:45:00 -
[7]
Edited by: nono on 25/08/2003 11:48:48
Quote:
The current system at the moment, only allows at the most, a few 100K ISK profit... The time it takes to buy say a MOA on the market, fly to the point to pick it up and then destroy it takes far longer to make a few 100K than say, mining or pirate hunting.
So the original ' Insurance Scam ' thread was deleted because it's OK to do this?
For a small group of people that mine anyway this method is at WORST an easy way to supliment income by 20 million per day.
No placing sell orders to sell the minerals on a low or saturated NPC market.
No spamming the trade channel to sell minerals.
No running around placing sell orders or delivering minerals.
One researched original, unlimited copies, Production efficiency and mass production.
Carry on doing whatever you do and on the side have the cash machine print out 3.5 million every three hours.
A ship builder couldn't possibly dream of selling that many cruisers per day.
Go mine the minerals for a battleship and see how many insurance claim cruisers you can get out of the same amount. Then look at the manufacturing time of a BS compared to a cruiser. Compare the profit you get from your One BS if you can sell it on the spam channel.
Not to mention the cost of the BP for that BS.
Roark had I think 40 BS's in stock on the spam market yesterday. That's a lot of minerals.
Buy mexallon,isogen,and noxcium for far less then NPC price and reap even more.
A few 100k? Hendrix pointed out it takes him 4.4 million in minerals to make one and with an after insurance purchase payout of 5.2 million (rounded off)thats over 700k each.
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Diaego
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Posted - 2003.08.25 12:13:00 -
[8]
Quote:
A few 100k? Hendrix pointed out it takes him 4.4 million in minerals to make one and with an after insurance purchase payout of 5.2 million (rounded off)thats over 700k each.
So the time it takes to mine 4.4 million in minerals, build the ship, and get it blown up only to make 700K ISK? You can easily make 1 million ISK in an hour killing terrorists, how long does it take you to do the insurance "fraud"?
It doesn't take long to work out that the time and required out weighs the monetary gain.
Diaego
Assistant Team Leader
Polaris Player Support |
Rath Amon
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Posted - 2003.08.25 12:25:00 -
[9]
If I understand the closed system of resources in Eve these people that are recycling a bunch of ships are putting more ore back out there in asteroid belts while making only a modest profit. It's a minor problem in relation to the long list of major ones facing the developers right now.
At some point it would be nice to see the insurance system become more realistic by charging based upon risk and ships lost.
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nono
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Posted - 2003.08.25 12:44:00 -
[10]
Quote:
Quote:
A few 100k? Hendrix pointed out it takes him 4.4 million in minerals to make one and with an after insurance purchase payout of 5.2 million (rounded off)thats over 700k each.
So the time it takes to mine 4.4 million in minerals, build the ship, and get it blown up only to make 700K ISK? You can easily make 1 million ISK in an hour killing terrorists, how long does it take you to do the insurance "fraud"?
It doesn't take long to work out that the time and required out weighs the monetary gain.
How much does a terrorist pay? 1k-2k?
I ask because I'm not sure. So if it's one of these that would be 1000 or 500 per hour? I've killed a lot of pirates and never got these numbers. Couldn't spawn that many in an hour but you could be right. Lower space definately
pays better bounties but what about the folks that can't get to them.
I guess those that feel an extra 20 million a day scuttling cruisers is worth it can rest easy they aren't doing anything wrong.
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Avon
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Posted - 2003.08.25 13:43:00 -
[11]
This isn't a problem with the insurance system, it is a problem of deflated prices.
Anyone who sells a ship for less that the insurance payout value should really up their prices.
______________________________________________
Never argue with idiots.
They will just drag it down to their level, and then beat you through experience. |
Diaego
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Posted - 2003.08.25 13:43:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Diaego on 25/08/2003 13:44:27
Quote:
How much does a terrorist pay? 1k-2k?
In a 0.4 system, they pay 20,000 ISK each, and drop VERY decent loot that can be recycled or sold to make even more money. They can be found at planets in some systems.
A high level cruiser, if using the correct luring tactics can solo them quite easily... I can.
Diaego
Assistant Team Leader
Polaris Player Support |
TekRa
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Posted - 2003.08.25 14:52:00 -
[13]
guiristas terrorists? high level cruiser? are you kidding? Jump in a well kitted out rifter and you can take at least 3 on at a time if you know what your doing, granted its more dangerous than in a cruiser, but then thats the fun of it. or at least i think so 
Just 10 minutes ago i made 100k from a spawn of terrorists in Iitanmadan. and TBH their loot wasn't that good, some defender missiles, and FoF. no 'named' equip.
> With the lights out it's less dangerous. |
nono
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Posted - 2003.08.25 14:59:00 -
[14]
Quote:
Edited by: Diaego on 25/08/2003 13:44:27
Quote:
How much does a terrorist pay? 1k-2k?
In a 0.4 system, they pay 20,000 ISK each, and drop VERY decent loot that can be recycled or sold to make even more money. They can be found at planets in some systems.
A high level cruiser, if using the correct luring tactics can solo them quite easily... I can.
Thanks for the info. Now might you tip off the dev's as to why in Ammatar space you can go down to .1 security and MAYBE get 10k from a butcher two or three times an hour.
I guess this also points out why manufacture anything except for your own use. Afterall selling a thorax for 5.4 million is only 200-300k over insurance rolls and still under hunting terrorists.
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TekRa
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Posted - 2003.08.25 15:02:00 -
[15]
i find the best spawns of NPC 'rats isn't always at the asteroid belts, try checking out all the planets in a system, you should eventually find someting interesting like an abandoned station which has better pirates about, and some good flotsams/spawn containers etc.. I find the better loot is in the cans rather than pirate loot/drops.
> With the lights out it's less dangerous. |
Judicator
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Posted - 2003.08.25 15:30:00 -
[16]
Diaego:
That kindof petty cash fraud is for smalltimers. See, people building Battleships have it far, far easier and more profitable. We don't have to mine the minerals, we just buy them in large quantities with delivery and all. Make those 10 battleships, insure then and get them blown skyhigh.
Rinse and repeat. It's all really easy...
"I have tried for months and months to make m0o the most hated, the most despised corp in the galaxy and what happens? A stack of muppets named TTI comes along and just basically urinates on my bonfire."
Stavr0s
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Salgurdar
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Posted - 2003.08.25 17:06:00 -
[17]
There's really no such thing as insurance fraud. You people want to research stuff even a little before throwing wild accusations of widespread insurance fraud and people building 10 battleships a day only to destroy them for the insurance money.
A scorpion costs around 52000000 isk in minerals to build. For platinum cover, it costs 21357000isk, and you receive a payout of 71249999isk. That's a loss of more than 1 million isk. Now before you start going on about production efficiency. 52000000isk is the mineral cost paying 8000isk for megacyte/unit, 1500isk for zydrine/unit, and NPC prices for the remaining minerals at PE4.
even if you could get the megacyte for 7000isk per unit you'd only make 2 million isk profit.
The story is virtually the same for cruisers. If you can make a profit of 100-200k isk per cruiser, good luck to you.
As to Nono saying there is no money in npc pirate hunting. You ain't doin' it right if you can't make at least 300-400k per hour. In a battleship I can easily make 1million isk per hour. If I take it easy 600k. In a moa, I can make 500k an hour. 2 cruisers can double that. Get a little more playtime under your belt.
"We all know what we are, we're just haggling about the price" - W.C. Fields
Rolschau > anyway... because some jerk today... (it is soon 5 am) will turn on the smoke alarm all over the place and then go inside our room to check.. then I will stay up and not get a shock while sleeping and die.... I will be playing eve untill the jerk shows up
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Ulstan
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Posted - 2003.08.25 17:18:00 -
[18]
There is no such thing as insurance fraud.
It is the least effective way to make money there is.
It's about the same as someone constantly ejecting from his ship so he can get the 1 tritanium when he shows up in a station in his pod - yay it's free money.
But he could be earning so much more if he was using his time better.
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Judicator
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Posted - 2003.08.25 17:20:00 -
[19]
I did the calc with dom, as that is what I can get built. They cost around 35-37m depending on zyd/mega price. Full insurance is 18m and payout is 63m or so. These numbers are rough off the top of mu head as I am not logged in. Say it cost me 54m to build and insure, I get around 9m payout. Now multiply by 10 and I just got myself 90m from insurance fraud.
Not a good deal?
"I have tried for months and months to make m0o the most hated, the most despised corp in the galaxy and what happens? A stack of muppets named TTI comes along and just basically urinates on my bonfire."
Stavr0s
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Diaego
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Posted - 2003.08.25 17:22:00 -
[20]
Quote:
They cost around 35-37m depending on zyd/mega price.
Diaego
Assistant Team Leader
Polaris Player Support |
Singular
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Posted - 2003.08.25 17:26:00 -
[21]
"As to Nono saying there is no money in npc pirate hunting. You ain't doin' it right if you can't make at least 300-400k per hour. In a battleship I can easily make 1million isk per hour. "
lol, I can make 1.5 mill an hour in a MOA...learn the game better you say?
Im Yo Huckleberreh |
Judicator
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Posted - 2003.08.25 17:42:00 -
[22]
Quote:
Quote:
They cost around 35-37m depending on zyd/mega price.
PE5 and a well researched BP does wonders. Also, if I recall correctly the cost if using only NPC value for minerals is around the 32-33m mark.
Don't tell me that ain't a problem.
"I have tried for months and months to make m0o the most hated, the most despised corp in the galaxy and what happens? A stack of muppets named TTI comes along and just basically urinates on my bonfire."
Stavr0s
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nono
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Posted - 2003.08.25 17:44:00 -
[23]
Quote:
As to Nono saying there is no money in npc pirate hunting. You ain't doin' it right if you can't make at least 300-400k per hour. In a battleship I can easily make 1million isk per hour. If I take it easy 600k. In a moa, I can make 500k an hour. 2 cruisers can double that. Get a little more playtime under your belt.
Where did I say you can't make money killin pirates? You wouldn't believe what I can make in an hour killin pirates in a cruiser but I didn't think terrorists paid that much.
Killing average 1-5k pirates and the odd 10k with the uber tactics of targeting and clicking fire pays quite well after recycling all the crap. But then transporting and selling it is the pain.
Now if you can actually get into a 0.0 area and use those same Special TACTICS you can make a damn site more provided you have someone to haul it out or a second account and be able to avoid getting ganked by a PC.
As for the insurance deal . You bet your sweet ass it's fraud and very lucrative.
I'm thinking of setting up a second account just to generate me some free cash.
The recipe is there for everyone and you never need to leave the station.
Tritium 1-1.2 isk - delivered
Pyrite 4 isk - delivered
Mexallon 12-13 isk average sometimes as low as 10
Isogen 52-56 isk average
Noxcium much less then 250 isk
Zydrine extra cost more then made up by savings of others
Megacyte same thing.
Even better when my main character will be able to supply it.
Six factory slots at 36k (provided only one character doing it at mass prod 5)
One original BP researched to the point of the most savings. Copied 5 times.
PE and Industry.
Estimated cost at 8/day/factory(3 day rental) =
4,401,500.
Estimated gain after insurance 5,759,992/factory x 6 = 34,559,952/DAY
Not to shabby even if it's a slow day and you only make a third of that.
Maybe its just not worth it for some people.
Tell me why it should be worth doing at all.
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Aleister Crowley
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Posted - 2003.08.25 18:06:00 -
[24]
Bounty hunting NPCs is by FAR better than insurance fraud.
Personally I make 2mil an hour NOT including the modules that drop.
The modules that drop (depending on rarity etc..) can be another 1.5 - 15mil in that same hour. So that 3.5 mil - 17 mil in an hour is the norm.
Of course that's me and a badger pilot so even if you split the profit two ways it works pretty good.
I see the insurance thing as a bonus for owning the BP. Essentially it gives you like someone else posted 700k more than NPC value on minerals. That's not much compared to what it takes to build it as far as percentage goes.
As for mirroring RL. Think about this; You take a brand new car and get full coverage insurance. Take the car and part it out and then claim theft. You will get paid for the car and have parts value on a whole new car (which btw exceeds the total sticker value in most cases).
Eve is a dynamic universe where just about any hair brained scheme has potential to turn a profit. Let's keep it this way as it adds diversity to the game and yet another role people can fill.
As for risk vs reward, well just the fact that mega/zyd are required for mfr eludes to a certain amount of 0.0 mining and or pirate hunting.
'Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law' |
Fester Addams
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Posted - 2003.08.25 18:07:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Fester Addams on 25/08/2003 18:09:52
Salgurdar I think you have the figures a tad high, as far as I can figgure the base cost for a scorpion with a lev 5 recearched BP is 34.570.832isk, this is based on net information on the BP on a site wich has been very reliable as compared to the BP's I own.
adding your information about what insurance costs and payoffs are one comes to the conclution that with 0 in production efficiency you make 15.322.167isk profit from building it and blowing it up. A tad higher than the 100k Diaego (polaris) mentioned.
Lets then say you have lev 4 production efficiency, the ship now costs 29.039.498isk 88miniisk, the profit for the insurance fraud is now 20.853.500isk and 12 miniisk.
The ore needed for the rare minerals would meen you have to bring in a little over 20 refines of bistot. ()edit, accidently typed in 30 first) 20 refines comes to a little over 64000m3 bistot. A decent industrial can pull this home in 9 hauls.
Lets say two players are mining, one mining and one hauling could easilly complete that in 36hrs with 1 miner I and no mining drones.
with 4 miner I's the time becomes 9hrs and with drones even shorter but I would guess the hauler will fall behind then.
So in short, a 10M per person profit in 9 hrs thanx to an insurance system that works like it does, Im not too bothered, as long as the devs say its part of the game I say go for it.
Lastly, it is very true that most players can easilly make more than 10M in 9 hrs in other ways BUT with this scam you make the 10M every 9 hrs, with trading you will run out of supply or demand.
actually I want in on that deal, just got to save up to a good BP :)
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nono
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Posted - 2003.08.25 18:21:00 -
[26]
Quote:
Bounty hunting NPCs is by FAR better than insurance fraud.
>Yes it is so why stop. Factories don't travel with you, nor do they stop while unattended.<
Personally I make 2mil an hour NOT including the modules that drop.
The modules that drop (depending on rarity etc..) can be another 1.5 - 15mil in that same hour. So that 3.5 mil - 17 mil in an hour is the norm.
Of course that's me and a badger pilot so even if you split the profit two ways it works pretty good.
I see the insurance thing as a bonus for owning the BP. Essentially it gives you like someone else posted 700k more than NPC value on minerals. That's not much compared to what it takes to build it as far as percentage goes.
>Definately a bonus. You put the BP in the slot and add minerals what else does it take?<
As for mirroring RL. Think about this; You take a brand new car and get full coverage insurance. Take the car and part it out and then claim theft. You will get paid for the car and have parts value on a whole new car (which btw exceeds the total sticker value in most cases).
>Which by the way drasticaly increases your rates and possibly gets you landed in jail if caught.<
Eve is a dynamic universe where just about any hair brained scheme has potential to turn a profit. Let's keep it this way as it adds diversity to the game and yet another role people can fill.
>Cool so it's role playing and quite alright.<
As for risk vs reward, well just the fact that mega/zyd are required for mfr eludes to a certain amount of 0.0 mining and or pirate hunting.
>Obtainable by mining, purchase, or recycling that wonderful loot you get from hunting pirates.<
If Roark had 40 battleships on the market yesterday I wonder how much he would make in the five or ten minutes it would take to insure and burn those ships? He obviously had no problem obtaining the minerals.
Point is ONCE AGAIN why is this an available option in the first place. And for the past three or so months.
Change it now and you can't change the past.
Don't change it and it carries on as it always has silently and forgotten until someone else brings it up yet again.
Another can't win situation. You ignored it and the bed is made. Sleep well.
Work calls. Later.
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Salgurdar
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Posted - 2003.08.25 18:22:00 -
[27]
Fester, I'm using figures based on actually producing Scorpion Battleships, not working off some website. BTW what website is it? crimsonautograph, if so, best of luck with your figures. The mineral requirements for a scorpion with Production efficiency 4 are 6.15million trit, 1.3 million pyrite, 350k mex, 100k iso, 21k mox , 4564 zydrine, 1936 megacyte.
6.15 milloin trti x 1isk = 6.15mil isk
1.3mil pyr x 4isk = 5.2mil isk
350k mex x 16isk = 5.6mil isk
100k iso x 64isk = 6.4mil isk
21k nox x 250isk = 5.25mil isk
4564 zydrine x 1400isk = 5.5mil isk
1936 megacyte x 7000isk = 13.5milisk
Total of 42million isk
That's if you can get the mega at 7000 and the zydrine at 1200. Then you can make 10million per battleship. I'd love to see you buy 20k megacyte for 7000 isk in 1 day.
Our corp is capable of producing Scorpions and Dominix bs. The figures are right.
"We all know what we are, we're just haggling about the price" - W.C. Fields
Rolschau > anyway... because some jerk today... (it is soon 5 am) will turn on the smoke alarm all over the place and then go inside our room to check.. then I will stay up and not get a shock while sleeping and die.... I will be playing eve untill the jerk shows up
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Fester Addams
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Posted - 2003.08.25 18:42:00 -
[28]
Salgurdar:
The calculations I used were based on the fact that you bought the low en minerals and mined only zyd and mega, I also used NPC prices, wrong I know but I havent realy looked into the zyd and mega market.
all the low end minerals are easily purchased at npc prices or better, and if you are stumped at finding them at decent prices then you will get them fast enough by mining them yourself in sec space.
I see from your calculation that you have compensated for mega and zyd PC prices however if you are buying mex, iso and nox at max npc prices you are robbing yourself.
I can easily find 350k mex at 13isk just as one can find 100k iso at 57isk and 21k nox at less than 200isk per unit respectively, those three cuts will save you almost 3M.
Admitedly the higher mega and zyd prices will cut into the profit margin however as you could not hope to make a similar profit from mining and selling the whole batch needed...
I admit my numbers were a tad on the happy side but the problem remains, building a ship, insuring it, going out into space and have it dested and make a profit is fine if you do it once or twise but if you can make a good profit from it then the rules for insurance needs to be looked over.
Personally I would prefer an increase in insurance cost if you loose many ships is the way I would like to go as it would not affect the way insurance works for those of uss that do not scam the insurance agency but somthing needs to be done.
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Cao Cao
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Posted - 2003.08.25 19:26:00 -
[29]
God. I swear, you people ...
From some of the posts I've read here, it seems you can make quite a decent profit off insurance fraud building battleships. Whether or not you can make more doing other things (NPC hunting, prostitution, etc.) is beside the point. This is FRAUD! It shouldn't be happening, it is an abuse of poorly written game mechanics.
It needs to be fixed.
Cao Cao
- You are not your ship -
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HendriX
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Posted - 2003.08.25 19:41:00 -
[30]
Whats wrong with you ppl?
Did I ask "Can you please help me calculate how much money I can make with insurance fraud using different ships?"?
This is sidetracked by a huge margin. Well, no surprize really, as so many ppl seem to be using it. Now plz spend half the time you spent answering a question that wasn't asked on a question that was asked:
What is wrong with insurance giving you back the ship you lost instead of the money?
thank you,
HendriX
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Aleister Crowley
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Posted - 2003.08.25 20:09:00 -
[31]
""What is wrong with insurance giving you back the ship you lost instead of the money?""
Then you screw over the PC mfr market.
Most people at this point are pushing for MORE PC run stuff in game NOT less.
The other concept is this: fender benders, happen all the time, in most cases 1 of the two guys' insurance pays for repairs. Now it is up to the individual recieving the money to actually perform the repairs. So the choice for him becomes a) use money to fix car b) drive dented car and go to vegas with the settlement.
The system works just fine.
""I admit my numbers were a tad on the happy side but the problem remains, building a ship, insuring it, going out into space and have it dested and make a profit is fine if you do it once or twise but if you can make a good profit from it then the rules for insurance needs to be looked over.""
Why is it only good once or twice? Is it the same way with mining? Or NPC hunting? It is an avenue to get more bang for your buck. Per your same logic we should only get X number of refines per mining gun before they pull less. Or people that hunt NPCs start getting less and less bounty.
Considering it is a role in Eve I am all for them fleshing it out and adding to it.
But what you are essentially asking is that they change the rules on it so it then makes the universe that much smaller of a place because that is a road that is being closed.
I hate freight-training. Which is the act (by a game controller) of 'leading' people down a road that they want you to go down. As soon as you step off the road they change the rules or make up an encounter to force you back on the road. That is not good.
'Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law' |
HendriX
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Posted - 2003.08.26 00:52:00 -
[32]
thank you, atleast that answer explains a reason not to do so.
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Cao Cao
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Posted - 2003.08.26 02:58:00 -
[33]
But in real life if you blow up 50 cars one of two things would happen:
a) insurance companies would refuse to insure you.
b) your insurance rate would be so outrageously high it wouldn't be worth your time to insure your next car.
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Reluah
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Posted - 2003.08.26 03:05:00 -
[34]
even if u cant make mutch money on scams, it dont have to take long
if u can get an alt managing the whole buy minerals/build proces it wont cost u mutch time, espesially if u can get a corp to deliver for u at decent prices(i know i can), then u go hunt, and hunt and hunt, and then someone want to give u the minerals u ordered, u log into ur alt, get the minerals, punch a bp in a factory slot (or 10), and go back to hunting on ur main char for 6more hours straigth, now ur battleships will be done and ur tired of hunting neway, so u go home, log into ur alt, hand ur main char the 10battleships by putting it into main chars hangar, assemble, insure and undock to blow up and repeat the whole proces 10times
now sayu made a nice profit of 2mil on each battle ship, not mutch but.. thats 20mil when u times it up by 10.. so 20mil in say 20mins of work? not really THAT poor payment value for the fraud :)
I have bought 2 thoraxes in my 'life', both i got so cheap on the market that insuring them and blowing them up would give me a small profit.. this i found very dumb because when i then head out to fight my enemies, and end up losing it, i go and buy a new one and say, hey, i gained 100k isk on dying, not bad :P
_______
m°f |
Bashar
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Posted - 2003.08.26 04:17:00 -
[35]
Sounds like in most cases its not as much about the profit that comes from to large of a payout, as much as its about finding an unlimited mineral "buyer" your 35M dollar battleship cost is i'm assuming becuase you are buying minerals below NPC price which is why your making that 10M, but you would make probably about the same IF you could find a full price bulk mineral buyer. By recyling you have found that buyer and he has unlimited local demand. More ships you make the more you can "sell" ;)
regards,
Bashar Miles Teg
Shop Smart, Shop BasharMart! |
Avon
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Posted - 2003.08.26 12:14:00 -
[36]
I still say the manufactures should just up their prices.
They make a bigger profit and fraud is pointless (it would pay less than selling).
As competition drives prices down people get caught up in the race to sell the most - the buyers win, the manufactures lose.
In the long run an economy can only be sustained if everyone wins. Selling at an affordable price means it has to be affordable to the customer AND the supplier.
______________________________________________
Never argue with idiots.
They will just drag it down to their level, and then beat you through experience. |
Fester Addams
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Posted - 2003.08.26 13:45:00 -
[37]
Avon, its not the buyers that complete the fraud, sure once in a while we can get our hands on a good deal or two, its the builders that can realy clean house on frauds.
The market is atm overheated, too many builders and far too few buyers, me as a consumer wants to get the best price I can. The seller can build alot more ships than they can sell and if you look at the total mineral sale, add in the time it takes to ship the minerals to a buyer it simply becomes more effitient to mine the stuff (or like some have stated buy it at reasonable prices from a mining corp) build the ship and rather than waiting a few days to get a good price you simply scuttle the ship and cash in on the insurance.
Doing that is fraud and should not be possible.
As for refunding the original ship... for some reason there are more insurance levels than platinum, how would you deal with them?
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Avon
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Posted - 2003.08.26 13:58:00 -
[38]
I take your point Fester and agree.
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Never argue with idiots.
They will just drag it down to their level, and then beat you through experience. |
Athule Snanm
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Posted - 2003.08.26 16:25:00 -
[39]
I'd need to check, but I'm pretty sure that fraud is possible on an Apoc and by quite a large amount with good manufacturing skills. As to it requiring a lot of effort, what is stopping someone placing a station buy order for the minerals. It may take a while for them to accumulate but then the level of interaction required is minimal.
Personally I like the idea that insurance becomes more expensive each time you claim - and to make it fairer cheaper than it is at the moment for cover before your first claim.
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