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Is the CSM now a lame duck?

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Josef Djugashvilis Acme Mining Corporation 1344	Posted - 2013.09.27 09:11:00 - [1] - Quote The CSM seem not to have been consulted by CCP about the proposal to allow Somer Blink to manage the rare ship lottery. An accidental oversight by CCP, or do they just not take the CSM seriously? This is not a signature.
Jowen Datloran Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 666	Posted - 2013.09.27 09:14:00 - [2] - Quote Anytime the Marketing Department get a "brilliant" idea, they never consult the CSM. Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook-á
Prince Kobol 924	Posted - 2013.09.27 09:23:00 - [3] - Quote Josef Djugashvilis wrote: The CSM seem not to have been consulted by CCP about the proposal to allow Somer Blink to manage the rare ship lottery. An accidental oversight by CCP, or do they just not take the CSM seriously? I didn't realise CCP had to consult with the CSM for every single decision they make.
Red Templar Monkey Attack Squad Goonswarm Federation 261	Posted - 2013.09.27 09:24:00 - [4] - Quote Well apparently they did it in order to "investigate" what kind of reaction this thing will get. One can of course argue that why you couldn't investigate, think and consult before actually doing anything? Well that wouldn't be dumb or provocative, would it? And that was the whole point of this thing. For Love. For Peace. For Honor. For None of the Above. For Pony!
Tiffenay Synchrodyne Holding Synchrodyne 14	Posted - 2013.09.27 09:43:00 - [5] - Quote Prince Kobol wrote: Josef Djugashvilis wrote: The CSM seem not to have been consulted by CCP about the proposal to allow Somer Blink to manage the rare ship lottery. An accidental oversight by CCP, or do they just not take the CSM seriously? I didn't realise CCP had to consult with the CSM for every single decision they make. They certainly don't, but the CSM's sole purpose to exist is to provide the kind of feedback that would have prevented today's outrage. The CSM is a resource to CCP to avoid situations like this. Why CCP doesn't use them properly is anyone's guess.
Mara Rinn Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium 4102	Posted - 2013.09.27 09:49:00 - [6] - Quote Josef Djugashvilis wrote: An accidental oversight by CCP, or do they just not take the CSM seriously? False dichotomy is false. There are many more explanations, mostly revolving around the CCP staff involved not having their fingers on the pulse when it comes to understanding the value of scarcity, the psychology of collectors, or the need to maintain trust in the issue of unique versus limited-run versus timed limited offers. Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by incompetence. Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative. 11845	Posted - 2013.09.27 09:51:00 - [7] - Quote Prince Kobol wrote: Josef Djugashvilis wrote: The CSM seem not to have been consulted by CCP about the proposal to allow Somer Blink to manage the rare ship lottery. An accidental oversight by CCP, or do they just not take the CSM seriously? I didn't realise CCP had to consult with the CSM for every single decision they make. They don't. CCP is divided up into departments and teams. Some choose to interact very closely with the CSM, some occasionally ask us for advice, some just ask for comment on the exact communication they're planning for the decision already made, and still others don't talk to the CSM at all. I leave it as an exercise for the interested student as to which set of teams make more hilarious public faceplants. 1 Kings 12:11
TheGunslinger42 All Web Investigations 2196	Posted - 2013.09.27 09:56:00 - [8] - Quote What do you mean by "now" ;) The fact that they didn't consult the body of player representatives that were formed in part as a result of devs spawning items for a particular player group about the the decision to spawn items for a particular player group says it all. CCP don't give a flying toss anymore. Screw the sandbox, screw fairness and balance, lets rush into all kinds of horribly thought out things for an attempt at grabbing some short term publicity. They'll succeed, after a fashion. They'll get plenty of publicity - albeit the same kind of publicity they got after T20 handed out BPOs, and after the "Greed is good" debacle with $60 virtual pants.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative. 11848	Posted - 2013.09.27 10:05:00 - [9] - Quote It is a categorical error to treat "CCP" as a single unit of homegenous views and procedures. 1 Kings 12:11
Jove Death EVE Corporation 987654321-POP The Marmite Collective 94	Posted - 2013.09.27 10:09:00 - [10] - Quote may aswell drop a can with 50 bpos in it OH... wait that was a done a few years ago Quoting "you will die" in EvE is fail Chars dont die in EvE. Unless you have a heart attack eek

Solstice Project I'm So Meta Even This Acronym 3985	Posted - 2013.09.27 10:44:00 - [11] - Quote Malcanis wrote: It is a categorical error to treat "CCP" as a single unit of homegenous views and procedures. Most people don't seem to be smart enough to distinguish between the actions of a group and the actions of a single individual of a group. "All black people are drug dealers."
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative. 11858	Posted - 2013.09.27 12:30:00 - [12] - Quote Solstice Project wrote: Malcanis wrote: It is a categorical error to treat "CCP" as a single unit of homegenous views and procedures. Most people don't seem to be smart enough to distinguish between the actions of a group and the actions of a single individual of a group. "All black people are drug dealers." Or even sub-groups. 1 Kings 12:11
knobber Jobbler Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 273	Posted - 2013.09.27 12:39:00 - [13] - Quote Solstice Project wrote: Malcanis wrote: It is a categorical error to treat "CCP" as a single unit of homegenous views and procedures. Most people don't seem to be smart enough to distinguish between the actions of a group and the actions of a single individual of a group. "All black people are drug dealers." I think it's safe to say all marketing people are immoral assholes that need to look to bill hicks for life changing advice.
Rhivre TarNec Invisible Exchequer 433	Posted - 2013.09.27 12:45:00 - [14] - Quote knobber Jobbler wrote: Solstice Project wrote: Malcanis wrote: It is a categorical error to treat "CCP" as a single unit of homegenous views and procedures. Most people don't seem to be smart enough to distinguish between the actions of a group and the actions of a single individual of a group. "All black people are drug dealers." I think it's safe to say all marketing people are immoral assholes that need to look to bill hicks for life changing advice. Yes, because we all have the ability to find out the name of every new product and company which comes to market, and the time to trawl through industry sites and publications to find the new cool company we want to support. Totally useless, all marketing.
Josef Djugashvilis Acme Mining Corporation 1345	Posted - 2013.09.27 12:54:00 - [15] - Quote Prince Kobol wrote: Josef Djugashvilis wrote: The CSM seem not to have been consulted by CCP about the proposal to allow Somer Blink to manage the rare ship lottery. An accidental oversight by CCP, or do they just not take the CSM seriously? I didn't realise CCP had to consult with the CSM for every single decision they make. Well, you do now. This is not a signature.
Amhra Rho Accujac Elimination 70	Posted - 2013.09.27 12:55:00 - [16] - Quote Another sign of rushed decision-making is the fact that the relative popularity and trustworthiness of SOMER Blink was not taken into account, or probably even assessed. If CCP had polled pilots about what they thought about S'Blink, it would be somewhere between lukewarm and dishwater. It's not about how trustworthy S'Blink really is - it's about how trustworthy pilots think they are. Not the kind of group to announce an exciting alliance with. It would be like CCP rolling out a dazzling, sparkling marketing partnership with the Sansha Nation - it would go over like a fart in church. There's real reasons why your Eve character doesn't do /dance.
Domanique Altares Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance 1570	Posted - 2013.09.27 13:03:00 - [17] - Quote Amhra Rho wrote: it's about how trustworthy pilots think they are. If you read the vocal minority rabble on these forums, SOMERblink sacrifices little puppies to Satan, and then reads their entrails for the best way to scam players, making them highly suspect. If you actually pay attention to their website, you'll see that thousands more per day give not one ** about shovelling their isk willingly into SOMER's wallet to have fun gambling, for the good or ill of their personal fortune. Overall, I don't believe that the majority of players distrust them, and I do believe that most who play will be tripping over themselves to win these ships. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters** to speak to a recruiter.
Luis Graca 211	Posted - 2013.09.27 13:30:00 - [18] - Quote Malcanis wrote: Prince Kobol wrote: Josef Djugashvilis wrote: They don't. CCP is divided up into departments and teams. Some choose to interact very closely with the CSM, some occasionally ask us for advice, some just ask for comment on the exact communication they're planning for the decision already made, and still others don't talk to the CSM at all. I leave it as an exercise for the interested student as to which set of teams make more hilarious public faceplants. You're totally wright the thing that worries me is that it's was the community manager that announces it Of all the groups it had to be them the ones that should know they clients better then no one
Amhra Rho Accujac Elimination 71	Posted - 2013.09.27 13:36:00 - [19] - Quote Domanique Altares wrote: Overall, I don't believe that the majority of players distrust them, and I do believe that most who play will be tripping over themselves to win these ships. You and I disagree about S'Blink's trust level, and I'm basing that on the S'Blink cheerleading thread, which was five pages long (versus the anti-S'Blink thread with 32 pages), and more than half of the commentators in the cheerleading thread were SOMER Blink detractors. I'll admit that the 32-page thread was not all detractors - there were some posters who are perhaps fine with SOMER Blink, but have a basic disapproval with CCP's decision on one of more than a few alternative levels. Meet me in the middle and agree with me that SOMER Blink is doubtless, at least, regarded as controversial. Controversial is not what CCP needs, given their past predilection for serially tripping over their bellbottoms. There's real reasons why your Eve character doesn't do /dance.
Domanique Altares Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance 1571	Posted - 2013.09.27 13:49:00 - [20] - Quote Amhra Rho wrote: Domanique Altares wrote: Overall, I don't believe that the majority of players distrust them, and I do believe that most who play will be tripping over themselves to win these ships. You and I disagree about S'Blink's trust level, and I'm basing that on the S'Blink cheerleading thread, which was five pages long (versus the anti-S'Blink thread with 32 pages), and more than half of the commentators in the cheerleading thread were SOMER Blink detractors. I'll admit that the 32-page thread was not all detractors - there were some posters who are perhaps fine with SOMER Blink, but have a basic disapproval with CCP's decision on one of more than a few alternative levels. Meet me in the middle and agree with me that SOMER Blink is doubtless, at least, regarded as controversial. Controversial is not what CCP needs, given their past predilection for serially tripping over their bellbottoms. We disagree because you're under the illusion that these forums represent a majority of the average players; like all such gaming forums, they do not. We are the vocal minority who take a more-than-active interest in the game. The guy who logs in for an hour or two a night to burn some asteroids or run some missions, and is blinking away in the IGB the whole time doesn't generally read or participate in these forums, nor does he particularly distrust SOMERblink. To these people, it's fun gambling, and they don't care if they're being scammed or not. I needn't meet you in the middle, because there is no controversy; fools and their money are soon parted, be it by an actual malevolent scam, or an up-and-up gambling experience. Either way, they're going to shovel their money into it. The ultimate result of this is that people, many of them having never blinked before, will be tripping over themselves to play blink when the time comes, and it will be a slam dunk for CCP's marketing department. By then the eight or ten people who are actually going to quit EVE forever over this will have done so, and the rest of us will be catfighting over whatever the new bellyache is for that week. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter.

Xaen Aperture Harmonics K162 63	Posted - 2013.09.27 13:50:00 - [21] - Quote Jowen Datloran wrote: Anytime the Marketing Department get a "brilliant" idea, they never consult the CSM. And marketing is the department that should most consult them. :-/
Igor Nappi Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation 6	Posted - 2013.09.27 14:05:00 - [22] - Quote Amhra Rho wrote: It's not about how trustworthy S'Blink really is - it's about how trustworthy pilots think they are. The trustworthiness of Somer Blink is completely irrelevant on this matter. I trust them to make a hefty profit of the free limited edition stuff CCP gives them. Edit: And on the topic, yeah, why have CSM if they are not included in the planning of stuff like this?
TheGunslinger42 All Web Investigations 2210	Posted - 2013.09.27 14:09:00 - [23] - Quote Domanique Altares wrote: Amhra Rho wrote: it's about how trustworthy pilots think they are. If you read the vocal minority rabble on these forums, SOMERblink sacrifices little puppies to Satan, and then reads their entrails for the best way to scam players, making them highly suspect. If you actually pay attention to their website, you'll see that thousands more per day give not one **** about shovelling their isk willingly into SOMER's wallet to have fun gambling, for the good or ill of their personal fortune. Overall, I don't believe that the majority of players distrust them, and I do believe that most who play will be tripping over themselves to win these ships. And if you read the statements of certain CCP employees somer is an amalgamation of gandhi, mother terasa and jesus In reality I imagine it's somewhere between the two. Personally, I don't really go in for the whole gambling organisations within EVE. The fact that CCPs actions mean that players who wish to try and win these ships have no recourse but to deal with one particular other player group and give them isk / visit their personal website and use their services is quite awful. It would be on par with CCP actions mandating that I be in PL if I want to fly supers. Or that I must be in TEST if I want to experience losing.
Amhra Rho Accujac Elimination 71	Posted - 2013.09.27 14:16:00 - [24] - Quote Domanique Altares wrote: I needn't meet you in the middle, because there is no controversy You'll find me to be a hard sell on that theory. I've seen the weekend-long flame wars in Rens over the topic "Is SOMER Blink a scam?" many times, so again, I've got empirical evidence. It's true that there are those few that swear by SOMER Blink. One guy in this thread, for instance, implies that he relies SOMER Blink for his income like some people use the lottery. But even then, using the service and liking/trusting them are two different things. Is SOMER Blink really the pilot's friend or is it simply their last resort? I don't like gambling - S'Blink or elsewhere - and I don't particularly trust them, but I may roll a few hundred million on a play for fun. That doesn't mean they aren't controversial - they most definitely are. Could CCP have chosen a non-controversial way of handling this promotion? Sure. A lottery involving all the players equally. There's real reasons why your Eve character doesn't do /dance.
Domanique Altares Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance 1571	Posted - 2013.09.27 14:21:00 - [25] - Quote TheGunslinger42 wrote: It would be on par with CCP actions mandating that I be in PL if I want to fly supers. No, it wouldn't. Winning things via gambling is not a supported in-game mechanic. Also, CCP has mandated nothing; if you want one of these bling ships badly enough, then come off your in-game wallet. It can be fairly well guaranteed that at least of of them will see the open market; buy one from a winner, and you'll have your ship, having never sent the first isk to SOMER. It's also a guaranteed purchase, if you have enough to spend. No gambling necessary. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter.
Krixtal Icefluxor INLAND EMPIRE Galactic 49550	Posted - 2013.09.27 14:26:00 - [26] - Quote If CCP ran absolutely everything past the CSM before initiating we would be in the same situation of the US Food and drug Administration in it taking 20 years to get anything approved and released for use. Get Real. Why do bikers wear leather ??-á Because chiffon wrinkles too easily.-á -- Paul Lynde
Xaen Aperture Harmonics K162 64	Posted - 2013.09.27 14:29:00 - [27] - Quote knobber Jobbler wrote: Solstice Project wrote: Malcanis wrote: It is a categorical error to treat "CCP" as a single unit of homegenous views and procedures. Most people don't seem to be smart enough to distinguish between the actions of a group and the actions of a single individual of a group. "All black people are drug dealers." I think it's safe to say all marketing people are immoral assholes that need to look to bill hicks for life changing advice. Life changing in the best way for everyone!
Maximilian Akora It's just business. 30	Posted - 2013.09.27 14:30:00 - [28] - Quote Mara Rinn wrote: Josef Djugashvilis wrote: An accidental oversight by CCP, or do they just not take the CSM seriously? False dichotomy is false. There are many more explanations, mostly revolving around the CCP staff involved not having their fingers on the pulse when it comes to understanding the value of scarcity, the psychology of collectors, or the need to maintain trust in the issue of unique versus limited-run versus timed limited offers. Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by incompetence. Or in short; "a basic understanding of EVE itself".
Xaen Aperture Harmonics K162 64	Posted - 2013.09.27 14:30:00 - [29] - Quote Krixtal Icefluxor wrote: If CCP ran absolutely everything past the CSM before initiating we would be in the same situation of the US Food and Drug Administration in it taking 20 years to get anything approved and released for use. Get Real. ed: I guess you'd like a Secondary CSM to monitor the activities between the the Real CSM and CCP to make sure that is working "as intended." I would be happy if only the marketing department had to run EVERYTHING past them. Look to Mr. Hicks for more information.
Amhra Rho Accujac Elimination 71	Posted - 2013.09.27 14:33:00 - [30] - Quote Krixtal Icefluxor wrote: If CCP ran absolutely everything past the CSM before initiating we would be in the same situation of the US Food and drug Administration in it taking 20 years to get anything approved and released for use. Get Real. It would take a single one-hour long meeting, max, and this sort of thing is exactly what CSM is for. There's no requirement that all CSM members be in total agreement, but CCP would hear voices from them that they're now hearing the hard way. Even taking what could be considered the most extreme scenario - CCP consults CSM who all say it's a great idea - at least CCP could come back to us in these forums and tell us that our own democratically elected player representatives disagree with us. There's real reasons why your Eve character doesn't do /dance.

Krixtal Icefluxor INLAND EMPIRE Galactic 49552	Posted - 2013.09.27 14:36:00 - [31] - Quote Amhra Rho wrote: Krixtal Icefluxor wrote: If CCP ran absolutely everything past the CSM before initiating we would be in the same situation of the US Food and drug Administration in it taking 20 years to get anything approved and released for use. Get Real. It would take a single one-hour long meeting, max, and this sort of thing is exactly what CSM is for. There's no requirement that all CSM members be in total agreement, but CCP would hear voices from them that they're now hearing the hard way. Even taking what could be considered the most extreme scenario - CCP consults CSM who all say it's a great idea - at least CCP could come back to us in these forums and tell us that our own democratically elected player representatives disagree with us. An hour for each issue always facing the Devs ? Do you understand how complex and gigantic the number of issues is they deal with in development ? An hour ? Get Real. Why do bikers wear leather ??-á Because chiffon wrinkles too easily.-á -- Paul Lynde
Karrl Tian Ice Patrol 211	Posted - 2013.09.27 14:36:00 - [32] - Quote Clearly you weren't here for Incarna.... CCP: "These Barbie dolls are awesome, everyone should play with them." CSM: "We don't think this is a good idea..., plus who the hell will pay $60 for a monocle?" CCP: *****-slap "We don't fly to you to Iceland to think, we fly you to Iceland to make us look like we give a damn. Bye-bye ship-spinning."
Amhra Rho Accujac Elimination 71	Posted - 2013.09.27 14:45:00 - [33] - Quote Krixtal Icefluxor wrote: Amhra Rho wrote: Krixtal Icefluxor wrote: If CCP ran absolutely everything past the CSM before initiating we would be in the same situation of the US Food and drug Administration in it taking 20 years to get anything approved and released for use. Get Real. It would take a single one-hour long meeting, max, and this sort of thing is exactly what CSM is for. There's no requirement that all CSM members be in total agreement, but CCP would hear voices from them that they're now hearing the hard way. Even taking what could be considered the most extreme scenario - CCP consults CSM who all say it's a great idea - at least CCP could come back to us in these forums and tell us that our own democratically elected player representatives disagree with us. An hour for each issue always facing the Devs ? Do you understand how complex and gigantic the number of issues is they deal with in development ? An hour ? Get Real. Yes. I do. I have a metric crap ton of experience as a Project Manager in a similar environment - Fortune 5's as a matter of fact - and there is no way I'd be caught dead rolling out something of this magnitude without making for damm sure I've thought of everything first. Other than it takes one Dev one hour, do you have a compelling reason not to consult CSM? There's real reasons why your Eve character doesn't do /dance.


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