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Teles666
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Posted - 2006.01.19 13:20:00 -
[31]
Stupid decision - GM had two options in my book, ban all 3 or let the kids sort out their squabble themselves.
They've taken the worst possible route in my opinion and I don't understand it. If I give a rl friend my pw and he takes a ship out, do I get him banned when he calls me a name?
Do I get banned for logging into a m8's account during the day and changing skills for him?
All rubbish in my opinion and the EULA is ignored plenty of times when it suits.
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Arnt
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Posted - 2006.01.19 13:37:00 -
[32]
I too would like to know the official position about account sharing.
We are discussing perma-ban cases here, it's serious matters !
About the exemple in this thread, I'd say that the GM probably banned the accounts in order to fully be able to investigate the case, as he may have suspected an hacking attempt. I really do hope it was like that.
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Montague Zooma
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Posted - 2006.01.19 17:31:00 -
[33]
Well, by some miracle of the Internet, I'm able to access the forum rules sections once again.
Quote: Warnings and bans are not to be discussed on the forum. Such matters shall remain private between the CCP and the user. Questions or comments concerning warnings and bans will be conveyed through e-mail or private messaging. Likewise, discussions regarding moderator actions are not permitted on the forum. If you have questions regarding a post or thread, please contact [email protected].
I assumed this included GM actions and not just board mod actions, but since the mods haven't clicked this thread yet...and they've been clicking others...I guess I'm wrong.
Complain about the GMs all you like.
------------------------------------------------------------------- One noob. One corp. One complete waste of 1.6 million isk. |
Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2006.01.19 18:14:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Rod Blaine on 19/01/2006 18:15:27
Originally by: Arnt I too would like to know the official position about account sharing.
We are discussing perma-ban cases here, it's serious matters !
Account sharing, when CCP take notice and prove it (which generally translates to you having had to admit it directly to a GM, since nothing less constitues real proof aside from a serious investigation into your behaviour, which CCP wont take the trouble of doing in the first place) , is punishable by a direct and permanent ban.
It might not be stated like that anywhere for us to read, but that is exactly what *has* happened to some already, of which I am 100% sure.
Of course, CCP know as well as you all do that this part of the EULA is unenforcable. And I doubt they would even want to. But no matter what you do, you can't expect a GM to not act by the rules given to him by CCP when you confront him with mail in which a player tells him he broke the EULA ffs. _______________________________________________
Power to the players !
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Deja Thoris
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Posted - 2006.01.19 18:40:00 -
[35]
Originally by: mogwai
Passwords are the responsibility of the account owner. If a shared password leads to abuse of the account, it is the responsibility of the account owner and customer support cannot reimburse the loss.
Read this again Rod.
Nowhere does it say sharing account passwords = bannage!
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Xachariah
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Posted - 2006.01.19 18:43:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Rod Blaine Edited by: Rod Blaine on 19/01/2006 18:15:27
Originally by: Arnt I too would like to know the official position about account sharing.
We are discussing perma-ban cases here, it's serious matters !
Account sharing, when CCP take notice and prove it (which generally translates to you having had to admit it directly to a GM, since nothing less constitues real proof aside from a serious investigation into your behaviour, which CCP wont take the trouble of doing in the first place) , is punishable by a direct and permanent ban.
It might not be stated like that anywhere for us to read, but that is exactly what *has* happened to some already, of which I am 100% sure.
Of course, CCP know as well as you all do that this part of the EULA is unenforcable. And I doubt they would even want to. But no matter what you do, you can't expect a GM to not act by the rules given to him by CCP when you confront him with mail in which a player tells him he broke the EULA ffs.
What you seem to have overread is, that player 3, the person, who petitioned the loss and admitted that he had shared his PW did not get banned.
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Syrec
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Posted - 2006.01.19 19:30:00 -
[37]
Your friend made some poor choices and handled a real life fight in a real scummy fashion. Logging onto someone else's account and looting it dry is what account hackers do (see recent hacking issues). The ONLY difference between your friend and an account hacker is that your friend had the password from a long time ago. Still, looting the account dry was a malicious act deserving of a perma-ban. This is an MMORPG and as you said, the other person had their account for months. Having everything they worked for flushed down the drain by some joe who decides to betray trust and steal it all is horrible. It really doesn't matter if your friend "nurtured" the account, it wasn't his account.
The only thing that should be petitionable is the other person's account getting banned. If I had to guess, the reason it was banned was because your friend (the account hacker) logged onto the other account as well, thus his IP showed on all 3 accounts. The goal was obviously to ban the hacker, not just one account, and so I think it was assumed that both accounts belonged to the hacker. Either that or your other friend did this stuff as well.
You say the victim didn't get anything back, and that is probably because he handed out his password in the first place. If he mentioned that in his story to the GMs then I can see why they would take action against mr. hackhack without compensating him.
Oh, and as a golden rule, like every cheater in MMORPGs has some loyal best friend to come on the forum and defend them as if they were totally innocent. Anybody who has played MMORPGs for a while knows what this is. We see it all the time. Excuses excuses. Now you just need to claim his imaginary younger brother did it all and you'll be a textbook case.
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Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2006.01.19 19:33:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Deja Thoris
Originally by: mogwai
Passwords are the responsibility of the account owner. If a shared password leads to abuse of the account, it is the responsibility of the account owner and customer support cannot reimburse the loss.
Read this again Rod.
Nowhere does it say sharing account passwords = bannage!
It does elsewhere however.
And anyway, I dont get that knowledge from the EULA, but from someone getting his account banned because of that.
If person 2 not 3 got banned btw, then maybe the GM's have been instructed differently since the incident I refer to, and no longer ban for account sharing like that. Banning the account that got raided does make sense too, since it's clearly no longer secure.
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Mr Revenge
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Posted - 2006.01.20 10:56:00 -
[39]
Passwords are the responsibility of the account owner. If a shared password leads to abuse of the account, it is the responsibility of the account owner and customer support cannot reimburse the loss.
This statement suggests that any actions taken by the friend 1 upon friends 3 account is valid. The fact that friend 3 gave up his password for his convenience to friend 1 to maintain his character also suggest that access to the account was authorised by friend 3. Friend 2 seems to have gotten caught in the middle of a domestic. CCP should unban these players for this simple fact. If sharing passwords is an offence to the EULA then shouldnt about half the people in EVE be banned? |
mogwai
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Posted - 2006.01.20 11:18:00 -
[40]
Like i said before in this thread, i wouldnt mind an official response to find out EXACTLY where WE THE PAYING CUSTOMERS stand on this issue. If its in the EULA that its a bannable offence to share a password and in the 'my account' section sayings its okay to share, there is something SERIOUSLY amiss and could cause severe legal implications.
............................................ It isnt a bug, it's a new feature |
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Arnt
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Posted - 2006.01.20 13:25:00 -
[41]
If account sharing is a bannable offense, then it can be reported and the reported accounts HAVE to be banned. That's a problem...
On the other hand a hacker could always try to say that in fact the victim was sharing the account with him, how to check this is a problem too...
So I think that someone at CCP just decided to not give any answer. It's the 'easy solution', just like moderating macro/ISK farmers threads was the 'easy solution' for it (in this case they forgot that blatent abuses of the game wich are not acted against attract hackers because of the feeling of impunity, and they cautionned those abuses by preventing players to complain publicly about them).
Now every player sharing an account is in danger of being insta-perma-banned, at the will of a game master and NOT according to clear rules? This doesn't smell good :-/
I think I'd prefer a checkbox in the account management page saying 'you declare this account as shared, and as such forfeit any right to fill a petition for losses occuring on this account due to third party access to it - character destruction excepted'.
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Rift lance
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Posted - 2006.01.20 21:33:00 -
[42]
Passwords are the responsibility of the account owner. If a shared password leads to abuse of the account, it is the responsibility of the account owner and customer support cannot reimburse the loss.
I think this sums it all up pretty good, and a instant permaban sure sounds a bit much. A warning too both would have been better.
-------------- [a niffty sig] |
Fooball
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Posted - 2006.01.20 21:37:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Dracolich Have you ever been misjudged by GMs? Or have they seen through you for the scammer you are?
I have acted stupid, ignorant and irritating "customer" to them. They have been so far quite efficient and dealt imho everything very well
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danneh
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Posted - 2006.01.20 21:38:00 -
[44]
If the guy who got ripped off paid for the account, hence his ownership, It was the right call.
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Dracolich
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Posted - 2006.01.23 09:50:00 -
[45]
Thank you all for responding to this thread in a very sincere way. Furthermore, thanks to the mods for not locking it... at least not right away. _______________________________________
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Asnar
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Posted - 2006.01.23 10:38:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Asnar on 23/01/2006 10:40:19
Originally by: EULA point 2a Only an individual, natural person who is an adult or, in the discretion of such an adult, his or her minor child, may establish an Account. You are responsible and liable for all activities conducted through your Account, regardless of who conducts those activities.
You may not share your Account with anyone, or allow anyone other than you personally (or your minor child, if you have registered an Account on behalf of your minor child) to access or use your Account. Joint or shared ownership or use of an Account by more than one user is prohibited.
Terms of service
Point 21, and the part in all caps make it pretty clear as well.
And how exactly do you adapt to potentially getting killed by everybody you kill? -Nero Scuro |
tyrol
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Posted - 2006.01.23 10:43:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Rift lance
Passwords are the responsibility of the account owner. If a shared password leads to abuse of the account, it is the responsibility of the account owner and customer support cannot reimburse the loss.
I think this sums it all up pretty good, and a instant permaban sure sounds a bit much. A warning too both would have been better.
this may however be refering to any financial loss you may encounter due to being banned. Ie a paid up subscription
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Gigi Barbagrigia
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Posted - 2006.01.23 13:02:00 -
[48]
wow, ISD on strike?
What I think? That people should RTFM more. ----- 42 |
Melkor Bloodaxe
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Posted - 2006.01.23 13:31:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Melkor Bloodaxe on 23/01/2006 13:35:14 Reading the above posts, the GMs did act how they should have acted.
However, personally I think that password sharing with a friend for skill changing (however forbidden by rules) is not wrong, but that's a moral question. It becomes indeed something different if the two friends become foes and the skill changer friend (the 1st friend in this case) hands over the account after completely undressing the character... Not very grown-up behavier...
Personally I shouldn't inform the GMs, but gather my corpmates and hunt the guy down till his last very ISK. (after changing the password ofcourse.) Since it would have been my fault in the first place to hand over the password. But still very nasty for the other guy who had his account banned for this... He should be unbanned and recieve a warning for this.
But since the EULA says it's forbidden, the GMs did act correctly.
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Lan Malkier
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Posted - 2006.01.23 14:30:00 -
[50]
Several people have criticised player 1 for "stealing" player 3's stuff. However, if I read the OP correctly then most of the "stuff" was actually the result of player 1's hard work, not player 3's.
Ignoring the legalities of the EULA does that make it morally more acceptable? I think so.
Does it affect the GM's decision? No it can't because they have no way of checking, although my personal opinion is that if you give up your password to someone then you give that person the right to do anything they like with your account.
As already mentioned, it worries me that a mere accusation of account sharing is enough for a ban. Unless of course CCP have methods of verfying this that we aren't aware of. I can't imagine what that would be though so I'm still concerned.
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Gariuys
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Posted - 2006.01.23 14:36:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Lan Malkier Several people have criticised player 1 for "stealing" player 3's stuff. However, if I read the OP correctly then most of the "stuff" was actually the result of player 1's hard work, not player 3's.
Ignoring the legalities of the EULA does that make it morally more acceptable? I think so.
Does it affect the GM's decision? No it can't because they have no way of checking, although my personal opinion is that if you give up your password to someone then you give that person the right to do anything they like with your account.
As already mentioned, it worries me that a mere accusation of account sharing is enough for a ban. Unless of course CCP have methods of verfying this that we aren't aware of. I can't imagine what that would be though so I'm still concerned.
They can check IPs used to access acounts. And the persons involved admitted in petition, without account sharing there wouldn't have been a problem. So nothing about accusation, self admitance and IP check FTW. ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Melkor Bloodaxe
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Posted - 2006.01.23 15:42:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Melkor Bloodaxe on 23/01/2006 15:44:27
Originally by: Lan Malkier Several people have criticised player 1 for "stealing" player 3's stuff. However, if I read the OP correctly then most of the "stuff" was actually the result of player 1's hard work, not player 3's...
I guess player 3 did not hand over his account to player 1 while his char was in a pod, but at least in a ship with a fitting... It would not be wrong of player 1 to hand over the account with it's original belongings, would it? (in other words: he STOLE the original belongings...) But as this is not clear from the OP, it's just a guess...
But i agree with your pw-sharing opinion.
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Lan Malkier
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Posted - 2006.01.23 16:40:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Gariuys They can check IPs used to access acounts. And the persons involved admitted in petition, without account sharing there wouldn't have been a problem. So nothing about accusation, self admitance and IP check FTW.
Oh really? And how does that account for ISPs with dynamic IP assignments or students playing through a University network that hides the source IP. Christ, it could even be housemates sharing the same PC. IP checking has never been a reliable test for identity.
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Lan Malkier
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Posted - 2006.01.23 16:42:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Melkor Bloodaxe I guess player 3 did not hand over his account to player 1 while his char was in a pod, but at least in a ship with a fitting... It would not be wrong of player 1 to hand over the account with it's original belongings, would it? (in other words: he STOLE the original belongings...) But as this is not clear from the OP, it's just a guess...
ok, fair point. Still, if the situation is exactly as described then the severity of the offense really doesn't warrant banning IMHO.
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000Hunter000
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Posted - 2006.01.23 17:08:00 -
[55]
And the moral of this story?
Don't share ur PW with anyone u nOOb!!!
Hell i wouldn't trust my own mother with my PW
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Mr Revenge
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Posted - 2006.02.02 00:39:00 -
[56]
It would be interesting to see how many out of 22000 people in eve know its an instant permaban for account sharing, and even more interesting if anyone ever read the eula when first installing eve to discover this. Also be interesting too see what ccp would do if all 22k of peeps admitted directly to account sharing, would CCP ban them all? Obviosly all the parties involved were unaware they were breaking eula because friend 3 wouldnt have reported the theft to ccp in the first place. Secondly, if friend 1 was knew he would get caught wouldnt he have taken steps to cover his tracks? CCP obviously threw his case in with the rest of the account hackers/isk farmers when judging the permaban because they were in a bad mood at the time. CCP should unban them all and give them a warning to never share thier accounts again, like they have in the past. And congrats to CCP for double standards when it comes to game time code selling for game isk. They never cease to amaze me. CCP 4TL!!!
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Mr Revenge
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Posted - 2006.02.16 13:13:00 -
[57]
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Gonada
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Posted - 2006.02.16 13:46:00 -
[58]
lol mR. revenge , must been the guy banned, score one for dragging old posts out of the closet.
go CCP !
-I don't necessarily agree with everything I say.-
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Mr Revenge
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Posted - 2006.02.17 03:46:00 -
[59]
LOL wouldnt that be funny, no im just an ex corp m8 who is owed isk by friend 1. There goes that 50mill spending spree... Can I get a refund? ROFL
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Nikolai Nuvolari
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Posted - 2006.02.17 05:25:00 -
[60]
There is NO reason to ban Player 2. Even if they banned him for password sharing, they would DEFINITELY have to ban Player 3, logically.
Furthermore, there is NO definite way to prove account sharing. IP checks prove nothing because it is theoretically possible to log on from any IP in the world with remote access services such as "GoToMyPC".
NUVOLARI HAS SPOKEN. THIS ISSUE IS CLOSED. -------------------------------------[04:04:04] Tom Thumb > for a nut case you rawk
[04:21:15] Mebrithiel Ju'wien > Nik's bio 4tw btw
[07:38:53] Graelyn > Nikolai for Dev 108!
Stop whining about my signature - Wrangler \o/ ~kieron [\"] -Capsicum <3 -eris you wanted colours now you have them :) -eris..again Donuts and cAKe anyone? Jacques' Nikolai can post twice as fast as me, and i'm uber -zhuge liang |
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