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Paul Tsukaya
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
17
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Posted - 2013.09.28 20:51:00 -
[1] - Quote
From what I've read here, armor T3s + guardians are the bread and butter of fighting at wormholes.
Have you ever tried to take such a fleet into nullsec on a roam? What sort of problems have you encountered while doing so? |

Sum Olgy
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
22
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Posted - 2013.09.28 21:06:00 -
[2] - Quote
You lot turn up? |

HerrBert
Semper Ubi Sub Ubi
104
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Posted - 2013.09.28 21:09:00 -
[3] - Quote
Speed!
An Armor T3 Gang by nature is not really "fast". My mind does not reflect my corp ... it just shows you what they care about...
Super serious Wormhole Guy http://www.youtube.com/user/HerrBertism |

Apollo Eros
Daktaklakpak.
30
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Posted - 2013.09.28 21:25:00 -
[4] - Quote
Getting hot dropped? [Daktak Recruiter] We want you harder. Join "We're Bad"-á [LVL 5 Space Wizard] |

Paul Tsukaya
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
17
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Posted - 2013.09.28 21:26:00 -
[5] - Quote
HerrBert wrote:Speed!
An Armor T3 Gang by nature is not really "fast". Lets say an armor T3 gang ran into Black Legion flying shield Muninns. How would this fight go if it took place 50km off a gate in nullsec? How would this fight go if it took place at at hole in wspace? I'm really curious how differences in geography effect fleet balance.
[Muninn, Black Legion Muninn] Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Damage Control II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II
Large Shield Extender II Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
720mm Howitzer Artillery II,Republic Fleet EMP M 720mm Howitzer Artillery II,Republic Fleet EMP M 720mm Howitzer Artillery II,Republic Fleet EMP M 720mm Howitzer Artillery II,Republic Fleet EMP M 720mm Howitzer Artillery II,Republic Fleet EMP M Small 'Vehemence' Shockwave Charge
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I |

W01F GEO
Temnava Legion No Holes Barred
58
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Posted - 2013.09.28 21:26:00 -
[6] - Quote
200 sniping tier 3 as usual? www.no-ho.com |

Paul Tsukaya
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
17
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Posted - 2013.09.28 21:33:00 -
[7] - Quote
Sum Olgy wrote:You lot turn up?
W01F GEO wrote:200 sniping tier 3 as usual?
Apollo Eros wrote:Getting hot dropped? These responses are amusing, but what the thread is asking about is problems relating to armor T3s specifically, not problems that every fleet has in nullsec due to nullsec being horrible :P |

Svodola Darkfury
Heaven's End League of Infamy
255
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Posted - 2013.09.28 21:39:00 -
[8] - Quote
Tech3/Guardian fleets are powerful because they can dish out a ton of damage close range, have huge buffer, and big tanks with the incoming reps. This makes them fairly powerful vs. volley fleets and anything else that wants to try to brawl. There are no hard counters for this kind of fleet; just lots of stuff that works well with numbers or positioning.
They tend to suffer vs. kite fleets that can string them out over 70-80km and move them out of potential guardian range but still too close to warp to. There isn't really a "counter" to them except a better Tech 3 fleet, or a larger fleet with cap support. If you can try to start to break apart their Guardian chain with Neuts, Jams, Damps, or pure damage focused on the Guardians. That being said, many Wormhole corps will fly with their Proteus' and Legions using their 3rd+ mid-slots for EWAR, such as Remote Sensor Damps with targeting range scripts, which reduces the effectiveness of any kiting/sniping fleets.
They're vulnerable to blobs, as many fleets are, but because they're slow for their size you may be able to work some blob magic and grab several of them before they are able to leave.
Svo. CEO of Heaven's End; Seller of Wormholes. |

Paul Tsukaya
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
17
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Posted - 2013.09.28 21:48:00 -
[9] - Quote
Svodola Darkfury wrote:Tech3/Guardian fleets are powerful because they can dish out a ton of damage close range, have huge buffer, and big tanks with the incoming reps. This makes them fairly powerful vs. volley fleets and anything else that wants to try to brawl. There are no hard counters for this kind of fleet; just lots of stuff that works well with numbers or positioning.
They tend to suffer vs. kite fleets that can string them out over 70-80km and move them out of potential guardian range but still too close to warp to. There isn't really a "counter" to them except a better Tech 3 fleet, or a larger fleet with cap support. If you can try to start to break apart their Guardian chain with Neuts, Jams, Damps, or pure damage focused on the Guardians. That being said, many Wormhole corps will fly with their Proteus' and Legions using their 3rd+ mid-slots for EWAR, such as Remote Sensor Damps with targeting range scripts, which reduces the effectiveness of any kiting/sniping fleets.
They're vulnerable to blobs, as many fleets are, but because they're slow for their size you may be able to work some blob magic and grab several of them before they are able to leave.
Svo. Alright. So the main reason it's uncommon to see armor T3 + guardian fleets in nullsec, is that they tend to completely welp when they get blobbed, rather than a good chunk of the fleet being able to escape? Making them juicy targets for whoever has 200 pilots in bridge range?
Cause I will admit, I've never had 200 sniping tengus go after my thorax fleet. |

ROSSLINDEN0
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
136
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Posted - 2013.09.28 23:55:00 -
[10] - Quote
the BL fleet would win aslong as it could keep range, you couldnt tank that alpha no matter how good yours fits/logi pilots were.
http://kb.vergeofcollapse.com/?a=kill_related&kll_id=26996
only idiots take t3's to nullsec |
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Paul Tsukaya
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
17
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Posted - 2013.09.29 00:16:00 -
[11] - Quote
Is it easier to keep range in open space in nullsec, than it is when fighting near a hole? |

Svodola Darkfury
Heaven's End League of Infamy
255
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Posted - 2013.09.29 00:53:00 -
[12] - Quote
Paul Tsukaya wrote:Is it easier to keep range in open space in nullsec, than it is when fighting near a hole?
This is where the setup part comes in. When you jump through a wormhole, you're all under 10km from the wormhole (generally speaking) and there are limitations to what types and how many ships you can bring. Sheer numbers will overwhelm Tech3s very quickly. At large gang numbers, your tank becomes insignificant unless they are having trouble applying damage. Positioning is really important vs. T3s. If you land right on them, they're going to shred you before you can get a chance to apply any damage. A brawler fit (non-cloaky) Proteus can easily push 900-1000 DPS while sporting a 200-300k EHP tank, meaning that in a close-range fight they will almost always win. Once they stop being able to apply DPS, you start being able to eat through their buffer.
An important thing to note about my VOC Brethren's chest beating moment is that while they killed 71 ships and only lost 1, their 1 ship was worth 750 million, while the average value of the enemy ships was 80 million. And they didn't even lose a T3, that was just a pimped Guardian. So while you can "300" it up for a really long time in T3 + Guardians, if you aren't on a gate or wormhole, you're going to eventually die if they keep throwing numbers at you, and you'll probably spend more money than they did. Don't get me wrong, getting 71 kills for 1 loss is incredible, but for the null-sec guys sometimes it is a numbers game.
Food for thought.
Svo. CEO of Heaven's End; Seller of Wormholes. |

Tung Yoggi
SnaiLs aNd FroGs
16
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Posted - 2013.09.29 01:31:00 -
[13] - Quote
I would say that the first and main weakness of a t3 fleet in 0.0 is its very nature: expensive, scary: attracts massive blobs, frightens the rest.
This is mainly why the T3 fleet is better used as a response fleet (used as a counter) rather than a roaming fleet (actively looking for fights), greatly helped by the surprise factor of wormholes. Start up a fire with whatever lighter comp, then switch to take 3 when, and if needed.
Luckily it's sturdy enough to fight larger gangs - it is its destiny anyway, yet has trouble versus kiting comps and clever usage of ewar, and generally a well prepared opponent (see the 'response fleet' thing). |

Paul Tsukaya
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
17
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Posted - 2013.09.29 02:32:00 -
[14] - Quote
Svodola Darkfury wrote:Paul Tsukaya wrote:Is it easier to keep range in open space in nullsec, than it is when fighting near a hole? So while you can "300" it up for a really long time in T3 + Guardians, if you aren't on a gate or wormhole, you're going to eventually die if they keep throwing numbers at you So by this logic armor T3 + guardian gangs would be frightened of the hole they came through unexpectedly collapsing behind them, as it means not only are they suddenly far from home, but their retreat is also cut off.
Is that conclusion correct? |

HerrBert
Semper Ubi Sub Ubi
105
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Posted - 2013.09.29 02:37:00 -
[15] - Quote
Basicly Yes. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07PxgJmU_x8 PROOF!
Just watch the Local Counter in the right corner.
EveKill: http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=19595499 My mind does not reflect my corp ... it just shows you what they care about...
Super serious Wormhole Guy http://www.youtube.com/user/HerrBertism |

Ilaister
Task Force Proteus Protean Concept
11
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Posted - 2013.09.29 04:28:00 -
[16] - Quote
HerrBert wrote:Also killing 16b worth of Capitals is waaaay cooler than 500mil worth of cruisers. So the real question should be, why are you not coming in?
Answer our question now nullbear. |

Paul Tsukaya
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
17
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Posted - 2013.09.29 16:56:00 -
[17] - Quote
Ilaister wrote:HerrBert wrote:Also killing 16b worth of Capitals is waaaay cooler than 500mil worth of cruisers. So the real question should be, why are you not coming in? Answer our question now nullbear. I have less than 2 million SP. |

Ilaister
Task Force Proteus Protean Concept
12
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Posted - 2013.09.30 04:55:00 -
[18] - Quote
Paul Tsukaya wrote:Ilaister wrote:HerrBert wrote:Also killing 16b worth of Capitals is waaaay cooler than 500mil worth of cruisers. So the real question should be, why are you not coming in? Answer our question now nullbear. I have less than 2 million SP.
...
Fair enough.
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Svodola Darkfury
Heaven's End League of Infamy
256
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Posted - 2013.10.01 04:42:00 -
[19] - Quote
Paul Tsukaya wrote:Svodola Darkfury wrote:Paul Tsukaya wrote:Is it easier to keep range in open space in nullsec, than it is when fighting near a hole? So while you can "300" it up for a really long time in T3 + Guardians, if you aren't on a gate or wormhole, you're going to eventually die if they keep throwing numbers at you So by this logic armor T3 + guardian gangs would be frightened of the hole they came through unexpectedly collapsing behind them, as it means not only are they suddenly far from home, but their retreat is also cut off. Is that conclusion correct?
Unexpectedly is not the right word. They're going to know with a degree of certainty that their wormhole is going to survive because they're going to be counting the ships and measuring the mass. The only way that they wouldn't know is if you watch them leave system, crush the wormhole while they're gone, thus potentially stranding them deeply in hostile territory. Most Null-sec entities avoid dealing with wormholes though due to discomfort/lack of knowledge in the area. With a T3+Guardian fleet they can move relatively safely through null-sec because their forward scouts are going to see blobs forming ahead of them.
Svo. CEO of Heaven's End; Seller of Wormholes. |

Joan Greywind
No Swag Initiative
126
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Posted - 2013.10.01 06:37:00 -
[20] - Quote
Svodola Darkfury wrote:Paul Tsukaya wrote:Is it easier to keep range in open space in nullsec, than it is when fighting near a hole? T3s. If you land right on them, they're going to shred you before you can get a chance to apply any damage. A brawler fit (non-cloaky) Proteus can easily push 900-1000 DPS while sporting a 200-300k EHP tank, meaning that in a close-range fight they will almost always win. Once they stop being able to apply DPS, you start being able to eat through their buffer. Svo.
Link fit? |
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Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
582
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Posted - 2013.10.01 10:14:00 -
[21] - Quote
Nullsec pvp is about range control, speed and positioning. WH pvp is almost always close range at a wormhole.
An armor T3 fleet in nullsec could not catch those who do not want to fight it, and could not escape from those who do and are superior. In many cases it will not even be able to reach its destination because it is bogged down or even killed on the way there.
A typical roam with such a fleet through null would be: You make 30 jumps without catching anything except maybe a few careless haulers, everything else runs away easily. Then on 31st jump you are dropped by a huge fleet of range-controlling and fast ships that have been forming up against you, and everyone dies. . |

Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
264
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Posted - 2013.10.01 12:03:00 -
[22] - Quote
Joan Greywind wrote:Svodola Darkfury wrote:Paul Tsukaya wrote:Is it easier to keep range in open space in nullsec, than it is when fighting near a hole? T3s. If you land right on them, they're going to shred you before you can get a chance to apply any damage. A brawler fit (non-cloaky) Proteus can easily push 900-1000 DPS while sporting a 200-300k EHP tank, meaning that in a close-range fight they will almost always win. Once they stop being able to apply DPS, you start being able to eat through their buffer. Svo. Link fit?
Use Pyfa yourself? But try it with a plate, 4 resist mods, 3 trimarks, guns, a propmod and tackle. Should solve itself. PS: You should include a random damnation into your equation, cause you know... the t3 blob is highly unlikely to fly without any links at all. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3633385&#post3633385 - 15% more tank since the 1.1-patch. |

Crellion
Parental Control
56
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Posted - 2013.10.01 14:25:00 -
[23] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote:Joan Greywind wrote:Svodola Darkfury wrote:Paul Tsukaya wrote:Is it easier to keep range in open space in nullsec, than it is when fighting near a hole? T3s. If you land right on them, they're going to shred you before you can get a chance to apply any damage. A brawler fit (non-cloaky) Proteus can easily push 900-1000 DPS while sporting a 200-300k EHP tank, meaning that in a close-range fight they will almost always win. Once they stop being able to apply DPS, you start being able to eat through their buffer. Svo. Link fit? Use Pyfa yourself? But try it with a plate, 4 resist mods, 3 trimarks, guns, a propmod and tackle. Should solve itself. PS: You should include a random damnation into your equation, cause you know... the t3 blob is highly unlikely to fly without any links at all.
You forgot to mention Aurelia's Blasters of Doom and Black Anthax's magnetic field stabilizer... otherwise there are issues still.... |
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