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Swiftstrike1
Interfector INC.
Fade 2 Black
254
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Posted - 2013.10.02 20:42:00 -
[1] - Quote
Disclaimer: This is intended as a discussion, it is not a proposal for a definite change.
Eve's next expansion, Rubicon, will feature changes to such fundamental aspects of our game as warp travel and how much control we capsuleers have over New Eden. I decided it might be a good time to consider another fundamental aspect of our game. This is something that every player simply accepts from day 1, but is never really justified or explained. Every ship in Eve has 3 layers of defence: shields, armor and structure. Why is that?
The vast majority of players will be familiar with the concept that a ship should have a "shield tank" or an "armor tank", but never both at the same time. And yet, every capsuleer ship has both shields and armor. I said specifically that every capsuleer ship has both because not every ship in the game does. Wormhole NPCs (called sleepers) have no shields, only armor and structure. Given how tough these guys are to fight, I think they might be on to something....
Imagine with me for a moment: you buy a new spaceship and need to fly to a local market hub to get fittings/ammo/rigs for it. How exactly is it that your completely unfitted ship has shields and armor when you undock?
I would like to introduce the concept that a ship should not have any armor or shields until a capsuleer equips that ship with armor plates and/or shield generators (currently called shield extenders). That is not to say that the health bars for these defensive layers should be empty, it is to say that they should not exist at all!
This doesn't really change the balance of the game at all, it would just be an immersion related feature. Any hit points lost by removing a layer of defence could be compensated for by increasing structure hit points.
Post your thoughts and/or your own "completely unnecessary, but would be pretty cool" type of changes in response 
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Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
675
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Posted - 2013.10.02 20:47:00 -
[2] - Quote
No...how about instapops every time you undock in that new ship you just bought from somewhere cos it was a few mil cheaper but they didn't have shield\armour mods?
How does that not change the balance of the game at all?
Crazy idea IMHO.
Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee"
Undocking - More Routes Out of Station
Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up! |
Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
254
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Posted - 2013.10.02 20:53:00 -
[3] - Quote
What if you had the option to receive more shields instead of armor or vice-versa?
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Paul Panala
Circulus Exousias
79
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Posted - 2013.10.02 21:40:00 -
[4] - Quote
I have always thought it is a little strange that ships built for armor tanking even have a shield system onboard, it seems like they should have no shields. Also, why would a ship built for shield tanking have anything more than the basic structure needed to hold the ship together (aka, no armor).
As interesting is that is to talk about, making a change like that would greatly reduce the flexibility of ship fittings. Some people like to use an unexpected tank type on ships and I like that Eve gives them this flexibility.
I think the current method works well. Also, think about the massive re balancing it would take to make that work. You wouldn't just transfer existing shield hit points into armor, that would make some ships way too strong, but it would not be fair to remove their shield hit points either. |
Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
257
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Posted - 2013.10.02 21:44:00 -
[5] - Quote
Paul Panala wrote:Also, think about the massive re balancing it would take to make that work. You wouldn't just transfer existing shield hit points into armor, that would make some ships way too strong, but it would not be fair to remove their shield hit points either.
It would and it wouldn't. But I hear what you're saying though.
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Arya Regnar
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
280
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Posted - 2013.10.02 21:44:00 -
[6] - Quote
Can I have hulltanked dominix with 3k dps?
EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
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Michael Lovetto
The Crabbit
Dead Terrorists
4
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Posted - 2013.10.02 22:53:00 -
[7] - Quote
What? They come with basic armor plating and shield emitters. (Imagination required). The pilot upgrades what he deems necessary, whether it's armor or shields. However; I do see what you're saying. It does actually sound like a decent idea, but sometimes that little extra shield/armor that's added will save your butt. |
Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
259
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Posted - 2013.10.03 00:46:00 -
[8] - Quote
Michael Lovetto wrote:What? They come with basic armor plating and shield emitters. (Imagination required). The pilot upgrades what he deems necessary, whether it's armor or shields. However; I do see what you're saying. It does actually sound like a decent idea, but sometimes that little extra shield/armor that's added will save your butt.
Not that this is necessarily applicable, but since there's been some mention of a T3 rebalance - and these ships were derived from Sleeper technology - one idea is just to remove the armor from Tengu/Loki and shields from Legion/Proteus.
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Butcher Ruetz
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2013.10.10 05:24:00 -
[9] - Quote
i think every ship should have the basics a shield, a hull and regardless of what they pick up a structure. if you want to go just armor tanking then maybe SOME armor modules when equipped stops the shields from working properly (solves the issue of jumping to a station to pick up an empty ship) and i think the three things should function as follows:
Shield: needs to be visible (when a shield is taxed i want to see the damn thing like in the movies and pretty much every space game out there). transferable (its energy i should be able to transfer it as i choose and i would like to see it split into sections as well at least 2 front and rear) and hardened you know that look on the games finalfantasy (protect) and starcraft (imortal) how the shield has squares id like to see that. the graphics are awesome in this game and we don't have a basic visual on a taxed shield?
Hull: i suppose there would be no need to change as it could be covered in energy anyway, it is just one unit (unless they do something like a focus fire to punch a hole through a thick hull to cause major damage to the structure) .
structure: this is an important part of the ship but whats the penalty of having it damaged? im sorta new to this game and i have yet to see a significant importance on this. i think that with more structure damage the more systems will get damaged ex. shields charge slower, weapons stop working, modules stop working, your warp drive and engines could be damaged. of course the ship would have to be able to self repair to a point so the player wouldn't be stranded if he won the fight.
refreced quotes
"No...how about instapops every time you undock in that new ship you just bought from somewhere cos it was a few mil cheaper but they didn't have shield\armour mods?" Maximus Aerelius
"I have always thought it is a little strange that ships built for armor tanking even have a shield system onboard, it seems like they should have no shields. Also, why would a ship built for shield tanking have anything more than the basic structure needed to hold the ship together (aka, no armor).
As interesting is that is to talk about, making a change like that would greatly reduce the flexibility of ship fittings. Some people like to use an unexpected tank type on ships and I like that Eve gives them this flexibility.
I think the current method works well. Also, think about the massive re balancing it would take to make that work. You wouldn't just transfer existing shield hit points into armor, that would make some ships way too strong, but it would not be fair to remove their shield hit points either" Paul Panala
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Yummy Chocolate
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
1152
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 06:43:00 -
[10] - Quote
think about it this way: Shields are there because the ship needs their protection against solar winds. and the Armor is there because the ship needs armor plating, otherwise the hull will fall apart after a certain period of time. |
Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
514
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Posted - 2013.10.10 08:40:00 -
[11] - Quote
I just had to imagine how fast my mach could be if I didn't have to lug around all that useless armor...
Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699
Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |
Yummy Chocolate
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
1173
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Posted - 2013.10.10 09:38:00 -
[12] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
all the YES! |
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
538
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Posted - 2013.10.10 09:40:00 -
[13] - Quote
It will involve a lot of balancing work. Basically, any active tanked ship will have to sport "hybrid tank" from now on. I mean, how do you repair armor or boost shields if you have none? Then you'll have to add slots, and then...
Kinda big for something that is there for "immersion reasons", don't you think? |
Daichi Yamato
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
804
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Posted - 2013.10.10 11:06:00 -
[14] - Quote
one could argue that shield tanked ships like caldari ships have 'no' armour. just a simple layer to encase the hull from objects in space like dust and small debris (they are blowing up other ships in space).
and vice versa for armour tanked ships like Amarr, use a minimal shielding to protect from radiation and to prevent collisions (basically bumping)
There are no vets in EVE. Only varying levels of Noobery. |
Malcolm Malicious
Malware Detected
Brave Collective
4
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Posted - 2013.10.10 11:18:00 -
[15] - Quote
Hull tanking should be a serious thing. Buff local and remote hull reps. I want to see the smoke and flames shooting out of my hull in the heat of battle because real men hull tank. While we're at it, let's make it so nanofiber internal structures boost hull ehp instead of reduce it cause everyone knows fullerene materials are not only lighter, but way stronger than conventional shipbuilding metals. The result is a completely viable nano-hull tanking doctrine for all ships that makes shield and armor unnecessary because flaming structures orbiting at 2-6km/s are vastly op and looks way more badass. |
Velicitia
Emergent Avionics
1667
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Posted - 2013.10.10 12:59:00 -
[16] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:one could argue that shield tanked ships like caldari ships have 'no' armour. just a simple layer to encase the hull from objects in space like dust and small debris (they are blowing up other ships in space).
and vice versa for armour tanked ships like Amarr, use a minimal shielding to protect from radiation and to prevent collisions (basically bumping)
This is how I always thought of it ... or at least close enough (In-game lolrp reasoning anyway)
One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia |
Butcher Ruetz
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2013.10.10 14:36:00 -
[17] - Quote
i think everyone is in agreeance all ships should have the basic shield/armor. but as far as how much even one point of shields could stop the radiation and micro astroids. and it may not even need them dose the space shuttle have any armor or shields? no just a shell.
besides i do think they all need a purpose (as i explained above) |
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