Why do they need these changes?
You give no reason why other than because you want them.

This is just an open thread for proposed T3 rebalance discussion (post-Rubicon).
Some initial suggestions (credit to those that originally proposed them):

An across the board power grid nerf to all engineering subsystems

Remove armor from the Loki/Tengu and shields from Legion/Proteus (since the T3s are derived from Sleeper technology)

The reasons for these are to reduce the insane tank setups on some of the strategic cruisers and avoid the ability to easily run battleship-class engines and other modules without really having to sacrifice combat capability.

First off, dropping shields or armor would do nothing to their tanks. Have you seen how fast a Proteus' shields fall? Or how fast a Tengu pops once it hits armor? They effectively have little of their respective amounts to begin with.

And easily fitting a 100mn AB is misleading. First off it is expensive. You have to make sacrifices in other areas (they typically have lowish dps). And they are not the pwnage machines people think they are, especially with the rebalancing of T3 links.

If you want to nerf the 100mn ab fits you can do that without nerfing all the engineering subs.

Not to mention there are non-T3 Cruisers that have viable 100mn AB fits as well.

Bottom line is a lot has happened with rebalancing, and the need to nerf T3's into the ground has diminished somewhat as a result.

Likely lower their bonuses on each sub-system by about 33-50% while providing more sub-systems and adding a racial cruiser bonus that is very low (something like 2.5% per level).

This puts T3's exactly where CCP wants them, highly versatile with plenty of small bonuses but not enough of something to overshadow T2 ships specialties.

Funny how you say Legion is "overpowered" but Tengu is "just fine".

That was a funny joke!

EDIT: I'll expand on my answer.

Compare the Tengu to the Legion for missions. Compare the Tengu to the Legion for PvP. The Tengu can tank far more, can deal much more DPS - regardless of damage type. At least Tengu can switch between damage types - Legion is stuck with lasers and a subpar, virtually useless HAM subsystem. (No HAM Legion configuration can do as much DPS or tank as a HAM Tengu for the same price for PvE).

There are a LOT more reasons but it's a bit late here and I'm too tired to type it out. I'm sure other people will come along and mention them.

I do agree, however, that the need to nerf T3's has diminished, if not vanished.

In fairness, I said the tank on the Legion and Proteus is insane. I would say the Proteus is overpowered, followed by the Tengu and Legion (basically I'm agreeing). Don't forget that the Tengu is also stuck with a subpar hybrid system (not useless, just not great). The Tengu can only come close to the Proteus if it utilizes HAMs with kinetic missiles. The Proteus can also dish out well over 500 dps in a Covert Ops configuration (neither the Tengu or Proteus can even come remotely close to that).

Likely lower their bonuses on each sub-system by about 33-50% while providing more sub-systems and adding a racial cruiser bonus that is very low (something like 2.5% per level).

This puts T3's exactly where CCP wants them, highly versatile with plenty of small bonuses but not enough of something to overshadow T2 ships specialties.

True. Proteus seems most OP in terms of PvP performance. But even though the Legion can hold a massive tank, I don't think it's necessarily overpowered anymore after the boost nerf - it provides a reasonable DPS:TANK ratio, in line with Amarr philosophy.

Shouldn't a t3 be greater than a t2?
So shouldn't they overshadow t2 specialties.

They have greater risks to losing them after all than t2's. The loss in skill points and how expensive they are. If they were barely better than a t2 i'd see no reason risking all that

Overall, the Loki's a pretty nice ship if you don't mind a few of the subsystems resulting in a somewhat hideous ship. It's not as bad or as bizzare as most of the useful Proteus combos though, so it's liveable.

So you say you have little to no experience with the Proteus, yet you call it OP.

Yes the Proteus can be fit with a huge buffer tank. Guess what you won't be doing with that fit. Yea damage. For one, your DPS will suffer. Then add to that, you can't shoot far past your nose. Then for the icing, you are a slow brick that will be lucky to catch anything and stay in range.

There is a reason many gallente blasterboats get fit for shield tanking. Armor tanking makes them too slow to apply their short range damage.

Sure you can configure it for high DPS. It is still a bit of a brick, so you can easily find your self getting kited to death. Also keep in mind a proteus gets to apply that damage primarily to the highest natural resist of many ships (kinetic/thermal).

So yea it's easy to run the numbers in EFT and conclude the proteus is OP. Go fly one first and then we will talk.

Also keep in mind, with the SP loss, and lack of ejecting, a proteus pilot has to pretty much go all in when fighting, since you are in brawling range.

So you're saying it's not OP?

Not OP at all.

Post the fits of your OP proteus with stats, and I'll tell you why.

700 dps with 200II rails (800-ish with the drones) at nice range with 200k ehp mobility and the tackling trimmings. I fly this daily. Please tell me why its not OP and if you rly need the fit I ll send it to you but come on...

[quote=Nyancat Audeles]
...
I'd like to see a bit of a buff on two of the Tengu offensive subsystems
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I have little if any experience with the Loki, Legion or Proteus unfortunately.

So you say you have little to no experience with the Proteus, yet you call it OP.

Yes the Proteus can be fit with a huge buffer tank. Guess what you won't be doing with that fit. Yea damage. For one, your DPS will suffer. Then add to that, you can't shoot far past your nose. Then for the icing, you are a slow brick that will be lucky to catch anything and stay in range.

There is a reason many gallente blasterboats get fit for shield tanking. Armor tanking makes them too slow to apply their short range damage.

Sure you can configure it for high DPS. It is still a bit of a brick, so you can easily find your self getting kited to death. Also keep in mind a proteus gets to apply that damage primarily to the highest natural resist of many ships (kinetic/thermal).

So yea it's easy to run the numbers in EFT and conclude the proteus is OP. Go fly one first and then we will talk.

Also keep in mind, with the SP loss, and lack of ejecting, a proteus pilot has to pretty much go all in when fighting, since you are in brawling range.