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Bobby Wilson
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Posted - 2003.08.26 19:30:00 -
[1]
For the many who complain about how cheap cruisers and battleships are ATM, I'd suggest taking a page out of RL. The reason that a modern aircraft carrier is so expensive, in addition to the cost of materials, is that they take a stupendous ammount of time (in years and in man/hours) to build. Count component manufacture in and we're talking years not monthes of build time.
It is truly silly that it takes a week to copy a cruiser BP, but a few hours to manufacture a battleship from minerals. I dare you to drop off a pile of steel, aluminum, silicon, copper, etc. at a naval shipyard and tell them you want a destroyer by tomorrow, let alone a duplicate USS Enterprise to take to the cottage.
Futuristic EVE-era technology might make manufacturing faster, but not that much. A battleship should take 2 or 3 weeks to build, at least. A cruiser at least as long as it takes to make a copy of the cruiser BP( +- a week?. Blueprints should be just as easy to copy as they are now, maybe easier. After all, in a super hightech society you'd think they'd have photocopiers, let alone scanners and computers :)
This extension of build times would also mean that reseach on production time would mean something finally. Darned straight I'd do 50-100 runs of research on a BS BP if it allowed me to make 1 in 10 days instead of 20. And it would mean higher prices for ships and more sensible competition (in volume at least) among manufacturers. Cureent costs at or below base mineral cost are frankly ridiculous. It would also make room for a few more Industry skills relating to compressing build times as well as efficiency.
My 2 cents worth. I just couldn't contiue without saying at least once how stupid it is to be able to build a battleship in a few hours :)
But please CCP, don't do anything like this until I get my cheap Dominix :) It'd bring prices way up :)
BW
 Originally by: Selim
Cool, congrats.
Oh, stupid idea by the way.
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Bobith
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Posted - 2003.08.26 22:05:00 -
[2]
We dont know if eve time is faster then normal time.
I have played several mmorpg's and most of they have much faster time 4 hours is a day ingame for a example. Could be simmaler in eve.
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Danton Marcellus
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Posted - 2003.08.27 01:53:00 -
[3]
I was under the impression that EVE ran on realtime.
Convert Stations
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Cabadrin
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Posted - 2003.08.27 02:18:00 -
[4]
An excellent idea, one that I think would help the economy immensely.
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Coalition Kill Board |
Arondos
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Posted - 2003.08.27 02:54:00 -
[5]
All this would do is make people even less likely to engage in pvp. Imagine a fight where 4 BB's were lost. A month to replace them?
If you make the production time realistic. It would take years to produce a large ship and get it fully operational. Crews need trained, supplies laid in etc.
The game completly ignores the loss of crew. A seasoned crew on a mediocre ship will beat a green crew on a better vessel.
Life isn't fair and neither is Eve. Get over it. |
Bobby Wilson
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Posted - 2003.08.27 20:08:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Bobby Wilson on 27/08/2003 20:13:51
Quote:
All this would do is make people even less likely to engage in pvp. Imagine a fight where 4 BB's were lost. A month to replace them?
Only if you have just 1 BPC in your small corp and you make them all yourself. My suggestion was meant to 1. Be more realistic and 2. Bring prices on BSes and Cruisers up to at least a higher fraction of NPC prices. A 4 member corp making it's own cruisers is nice for them (and me too, how I got my Thorax) but isn't logical otherwise.
A four man corp making their own BSes is ridiculous. A dedicated manufacturing officer of a medium sized corp could run 5 factories at once (that's Mass production max init?) with well researched internal BPCs and thereby turn out 1-2 BSes a week, if they could keep up with the mins, plus if he had PE 5 he could make it with reasonable min use. If the original BP had some manufacturing time research (which no one bothers with now) and the new manufacturing speed skills I'm suggesting you might be able (as in my initial post) to make one in 10 days as a master manucturer.
Overall, I just think that some mook who just mines, pirates or kills NPCs shouldn't be able to just get a BPC and make himself one from mins just cuz he's got industry 1. If he still can, he should at least be waiting a lot longer and wasting a LOT more mins that a dedicated industrialist. Again, this would be realistic. Try making a car from base minerals in your garage, even if you're a mechanic or engineer. See if you can do it as fast, as well or as efficient as Toyota.
CCP has made it harder to be a GOOD miner (Astrogeology reqs now up to mining 4 and Science 4) and will prolly make it harder still with Deep Core mining (Mining 5, Astrogeology 5?). Anyone can mine a bit with just mining1, just not as well as I can with Mining 4 and Astro 3. Let's do the same with manufacturing, get some specialization going!
BW.
Originally by: Selim
Cool, congrats.
Oh, stupid idea by the way.
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Danton Marcellus
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Posted - 2003.08.27 20:45:00 -
[7]
According to the background story EVE ships have but one captain and no crew. Hopefully we will all wake up one day feeling like Bobby Ewing and realize this was all a bad dream.
But to the topic at hand, people wouln't be less interested in PvP, people would just be sensible about it and don't fly solo in battleships.
Convert Stations
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Bobith
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Posted - 2003.08.27 22:02:00 -
[8]
One of the POW has a story about pods says it can take the pace of 10-15 crewmembers allowing you to ly frigits and soem crusers solo. so that doesnt explain battle ships and highend crusers.
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Damageatrix
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Posted - 2003.08.28 04:06:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Damageatrix on 28/08/2003 04:13:03
If theres only me on my Megathron why is there like 800 windows on the damn thing 
PS I agree build times should be longer and dedicated industrial characters should have more adavantages, but I think a more sensible way of doing this might be to have components needed to make a ship as well as minerals. Say some of the trade goods like superconductors (lot of wiring in these 800m long BS), robotics (exactly HOW do I reload that 1400mm Howitzer), elec parts (have you seen the bridge of the Enterprise), consumer elecs (I want a holodeck), etc. You could even create a second tier of manufacturing, silicon plus say Mex makes superconductors, etc.
Just an idea or two to lob into the mix 
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Winterblink
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Posted - 2003.08.28 13:54:00 -
[10]
Probably also forgot about that whole "in the future" thing. We're not manufacturing an aircraft carrier in drydock here, it's a battleship being assembled on a space station like 10000 years in the future. God only knows what manufacturing processes are involved (nanobots, prefabricated hull components, etc).
___winterblink/warp_drive_active/eve_nature_vraie// |
Silver Striker
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Posted - 2003.08.28 15:33:00 -
[11]
Agree with most of this. Build times need to be much longer. I think it should take 2 days to make a battleship for most players, those who dedicate a charcter to ship production should be able to get the time down to 1 day or possibly a bit less, but that should only come after a large amount of training.
We could also bump the time to produce ships up even more so that a small corp, or solo player who wants to build his own ship would be much better off buying the ship produced by a larger corp.
As is, ppl can easily build their ships anywhere they like with a 1 run bp copy. In reality ship construction should be much more expensive and time consuming for most ppl.
That's fantastic, really, but we need more COW BELL!!!! |
Bobby Wilson
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Posted - 2003.08.28 16:35:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Bobby Wilson on 28/08/2003 16:35:47
Quote:
As is, ppl can easily build their ships anywhere they like with a 1 run bp copy. In reality ship construction should be much more expensive and time consuming for most ppl.
My point exactly. This is my plan for a Dominix ATM, and it got me to thinking. It's not hard to get PE 3 or 4 and that's really the only skill necessary to make yourself a Battleship fairly cheaply, even if you're in a 1 man corp. I'm gonna do it this way cuz it's easiest, but it does seem a bit absurd, doesn't it that it is as much or even more convenient/efficient for an individual to buy a 1 run from a megacorp than to get the megacorp to do a BYOM with the same mins and money?
Dev comments on the thread? Please?
Originally by: Selim
Cool, congrats.
Oh, stupid idea by the way.
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.08.28 16:52:00 -
[13]
You could as well wish for a dollar rain. Never ever seen devs comment here.
I tsrongly support longer build times. 1 week for a BS is not unrealistic.
free speech not allowed here |
Falnaerith
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Posted - 2003.08.28 17:28:00 -
[14]
Longer build times would be better i believe.
One point i would like to make about the shipyards analogy:
Eve runs more like a production line used in car factories. Components just need to be slapped together.
I do think that needing to go around and gather the electronics needed in the ship as well as minerals would help it.
 (And if those electronic components were of lower grade, ships stats would reflect that, thus giving the "quality" factor to put into ship sales)
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Basic truths?
Idiots make us rich.
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Some people are only alive because it is illegal to kill them. |
Carmen Ibanez
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Posted - 2003.08.28 18:25:00 -
[15]
Long build times for ships and shorter copy times for blueprints would help ballence the game rather nicely. CCP, listen up!
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Juan Andalusian
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Posted - 2003.08.29 11:57:00 -
[16]
Quote:
All this would do is make people even less likely to engage in pvp. Imagine a fight where 4 BB's were lost. A month to replace them?
A month is too extreme but a week or even slightly more is quite reasonable and i don't see how it would affect PvP negatively.
Lets asume you have the minerals/isk to replace the lost ship or ships, since if you hadn't the isk or minerals you wouldn't be risking it/them anyway. Now lets say you do indeed lose your BS or 2 BSs. Why would you have to wait a week for a replacement? Just go and make a BYOM deal or Isk deal. There you go BS in less than 1 hour.
Such a change would improve the prices because of the time required to make the ship and from the fact that there will be extra demand from people who need to replace ship fast thus while having their own bps or minerals can't afford to wait. Manufactures will make standard practise of maintaining stock.
Thus your point about PvP is invalid mate.
**Pain is meant to be felt** |
Scragg
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Posted - 2003.08.29 14:32:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Scragg on 29/08/2003 14:34:30
A better example might be the construction of Liberty Ships by the US during World War two. The US produced 2700 ships from 1941 to 1945 at the rate of about 1 per day.
This feat was accomplished by using modular designs and streamling the supply chain. The ships contained about 30,000 parts all constructed at facilites centrally located in 32 differnt states to the eighteen ship yards producing the ships.
I'd say in a few thousand years the same feat could be accomplished with space ships in a shorter period of time... say maybe a few hours? So ship construciton time is about right at the moment.
Scragg, Tyrell Corporation
Vice-Director Military Operations |
Athule Snanm
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Posted - 2003.08.29 15:16:00 -
[18]
I support this too - not for existing ships but for the new 'elite'/'hybrid' ones. Phenomenally expensive BPs and long and complex build processes would not see them flood the universe and would keep their price high, not just immediately above minerals prices like everything else tends to.
Someone mentioned it taking a month to replace, well only if you build it yourself. As there are so many large producers in the game now I doubt you'd have to wait that long - providing you had the ISK of course.
_______________________________
Doomheim - EVE's only hygiene! |
Ruffles
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Posted - 2003.08.29 15:22:00 -
[19]
Aren't we talking 26,000 years into the future?
You don't think they would have some massive productivity improvements?
Yes I agree things could be a little unrealistic, but we are talking about a game here :)
People don't want to wait one week for a replacement ship to be built so they can spend their insurance money and go back out into PvP.
I do agree this could hurt PvP, whilst possibly assiting the market.
People already complain massively about the ammount of effort that goes into getting a ship which can be lost in seconds of battle.
As someone else said, take the work-fun ratio into account. If people spend all their time working and having no fun, then that is a bad thing and likely to loose them as a subscriber over time.
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Znaei
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Posted - 2003.08.29 20:59:00 -
[20]
Extending the manifagture time is an exelent idea! But weeks to make one battleship? More like 2-3 a day would be fine. Same with other ships and equipment.
clagnuts> im drunk just come back from pirates night in spain , wtf i thought it was some eve guys getting together for a drink , turned out to be a feken real pirates show , doh |
Kalle Port
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Posted - 2003.08.29 21:27:00 -
[21]
There is a difference between massproducing and getting X items finished per day and creating one day and getting that item finished.
Why could they get 1 ship a day in WWII? because all the parts were being made constantly and they just needed to assemble them.
If you only build one ship you'll have to build all parts from part 1 (or have them all in stock which i kinda doubt)
Maybe they could make bigger build orders use less time per item but then all minerals should be taken off at the start of the whole production and not at the start of each batch.
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Kai Viqtorr
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Posted - 2003.09.01 12:08:00 -
[22]
Quote:
Edited by: Scragg on 29/08/2003 14:34:30
A better example might be the construction of Liberty Ships by the US during World War two. The US produced 2700 ships from 1941 to 1945 at the rate of about 1 per day.
While, on the one hand, you are unfortunately falling foul of statistics leading you to an incorrect conclusion, on the other hand you are demonstrating a key part of Bobby's arguement.
General Motors can produce hundreds of thousands of cars every day. Allow, for the sake of arguement, that the statistic is that they make 1 car every minute. That does NOT mean it only takes 1 minute to make a car. If you follow a single component (say steering wheel with Serial #123456) from the start of its construction to the end where the car it is in rolls of the line, you will see that the car will have taken many days to produce. Yet, because of the massively parrallel nature of a production line, that car dropped off the end of the line, 1 minute after the previous one.
So, using your analogy of Liberty Ships to determine production time is, on the surface, incorrect. However, it does highlight the difference between the mega corp (General Motors) producing 1 car per minute and the small corp (local school making a solar car for a competition) and taking weeks or months to complete it.
A small corp/pilot with Industry 1, making a single BS should take, for example, 15 days. A Large Corp, with several manufacturing experts, using 15 or more factories simultaniously, should be able to have 1 BS drop off the end of the production line each day.
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ULTIMA TREX
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Posted - 2003.09.01 14:55:00 -
[23]
Its the future, nano technology and automated machines must be far more advanced producing stuff quicker.
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