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James Pickers
Pacem Daemonum
1
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Posted - 2013.10.13 12:24:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hey. I have looked around for Amarr PvP tanks and quite a lot are buffer tanks, with hardeners and all that stuff. But I noticed that plenty didn't have an armor repairer?
So that means once your health is gone, it is gone and it isn't coming back.
This doesn't make sense, you can't buff 100% damage resistance so eventually you will die.
?
Can someone explain?
-Pickers. |
bubble trout
Sky Fighters
64
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Posted - 2013.10.13 12:39:00 -
[2] - Quote
Remote reps.
Also, most of the time pvp is about killing stuff before you die. |
Meiyang Lee
Game Instrument Applications
11
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Posted - 2013.10.13 12:39:00 -
[3] - Quote
James Pickers wrote:Hey. I have looked around for Amarr PvP tanks and quite a lot are buffer tanks, with hardeners and all that stuff. But I noticed that plenty didn't have an armor repairer?
So that means once your health is gone, it is gone and it isn't coming back.
This doesn't make sense, you can't buff 100% damage resistance so eventually you will die.
?
Can someone explain?
-Pickers.
Most buffer builds that don't carry their own repair module are either supported by Remote Repair systems from logistics ships or from Remote Repair drones. In other words, they're not designed to be used on their own, but to function supported by other ships. |
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
630
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Posted - 2013.10.13 13:29:00 -
[4] - Quote
Meiyang Lee wrote:James Pickers wrote:Hey. I have looked around for Amarr PvP tanks and quite a lot are buffer tanks, with hardeners and all that stuff. But I noticed that plenty didn't have an armor repairer?
So that means once your health is gone, it is gone and it isn't coming back.
This doesn't make sense, you can't buff 100% damage resistance so eventually you will die.
?
Can someone explain?
-Pickers. Most buffer builds that don't carry their own repair module are either supported by Remote Repair systems from logistics ships or from Remote Repair drones. In other words, they're not designed to be used on their own, but to function supported by other ships.
This. Sadly many armor tanking ships in pvp currently either must be supported by other ships, or go back to a station after every single fight they get in. The primary reason im a bigger fan of active tanking, which does not work very well in pvp (in particular once you get past the 1 v 1 or small group, where it becomes an alpha contest and buffer rules. :)
There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1521
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Posted - 2013.10.13 13:39:00 -
[5] - Quote
James Pickers wrote:Hey. I have looked around for Amarr PvP tanks and quite a lot are buffer tanks, with hardeners and all that stuff. But I noticed that plenty didn't have an armor repairer?
So that means once your health is gone, it is gone and it isn't coming back.
This doesn't make sense, you can't buff 100% damage resistance so eventually you will die.
?
Can someone explain?
-Pickers.
Congrats, you've discovered one of the many reasons why shield tanking is better than armor tanking
BALANCE. BYDI recruitment closed-ish |
Seraph Castillon
Justified Chaos
131
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Posted - 2013.10.13 13:58:00 -
[6] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:Congrats, you've discovered one of the many reasons why shield tanking is better than armor tanking
BALANCE.
I thought we were passed that ... |
Mathias Orsen
Sacred Templars Fatal Ascension
35
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Posted - 2013.10.13 15:11:00 -
[7] - Quote
Amarr ships are designed for buffer the way gallente are designed to be active. Using an active repper on an amarr BS often leaves you dry of cap to fire the guns. |
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
510
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Posted - 2013.10.13 15:39:00 -
[8] - Quote
James Pickers wrote:Hey. I have looked around for Amarr PvP tanks and quite a lot are buffer tanks, with hardeners and all that stuff. But I noticed that plenty didn't have an armor repairer?
So that means once your health is gone, it is gone and it isn't coming back.
This doesn't make sense, you can't buff 100% damage resistance so eventually you will die.
?
Can someone explain?
-Pickers.
Actually... You pretty much explained it yourself.
There are a couple of frigate hulls that self rep. And a few hulls that *can* shield tank, But even those don't really use self reps.
Big Brick Buffers are meant for bait, or meant to just flat out last longer than the enemy can stay alive.
I like Amarr ships a lot, but they do have their drawbacks |
Icarus Able
Traverse Holdings
123
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Posted - 2013.10.13 18:26:00 -
[9] - Quote
Buffer is also immune to cap warfare, which is very common. Cant active tank if youve got several neuts on you staggered so you never have enough cap to run your repper. |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
3415
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Posted - 2013.10.13 18:35:00 -
[10] - Quote
I'm going to copy-paste a comprehensive post I made awhile ago about tanking styles. If you have any more questions OP, just ask.
Passive shield tanking would be somewhat ok for pure 1v1s. As long as you are SURE that your hp per second gain (factored with your resistances) is higher than your opponent's damage per second you can last almost indefinitely as the tank itself draws very little capacitor power. The problem with pure passive tanking though is that this style cuts down your available capacitor power (both in regeneration and capacity) and requires a fair amount of slots to gain any appreciable amount of hp/sec... gimping your ship overall.
Active tanking has some similarities to passive tanking... except pure (and proper) active tanking is extremely capacitor intensive and favors raw hp/sec over "efficiency." This leaves active tanking particularly susceptible to energy neutralizers and "endurance" battles. In addition; active tanks tend to not have much "buffer" (see: raw HP) making them very vulnerable to high volley strikes (ex. artillery platforms).
Both passive and active style also have one other weakness in common; against an opponent (or multiple) whose DPS is above your ability to repair... you go down VERY quickly.
Buffer tanks are where you just load up resistances and raw HP. Nothing else matters besides getting a large amount of EHP (Effective Hit Points). The benefits of this tanking style are that; it tends to be the least taxing on your capacitor power compared to other tanking styles, it has resistance to high volley strikes, and will often outlast an active tank when there is lots of incoming DPS (as your opponents have to chew through all your HP rather than just overcome hp/sec).
Finally... there is a fourth "unofficial" method of tanking; "Speed Tanking." It'd take too long to explain in full detail (as I'd have to explain missile and turret tracking mechanics) but I'll give you the gist of it; it's the act of flying so fast relative to your target that their weapons can't track and/or apply damage very well. This style is the only one that can effectively be used in conjunction with the other, more well known, tanking styles.
Now... before I go any further... understand something; there is no all-round BEST tank. Each of these styles have their advantages and disadvantages. The trick is to use the right tanking style for the right scenario. In PvP... this means you must manipulate and maneuver around certain situations and opportunities to get the most out of your tank.
Some examples: - A dual-tanked Breecher or Incursus can regenerate a large amount of hp/sec. Combined with their small size and decent DPS numbers, this makes them deadly in a close range brawl. However... because they are active-tanked they have little in the way of raw hp. A single volley from an artillery Thrasher or Wolf will be able to blast right through any potential reps and prematurely end the active tankers.
- With some very good skills (and liberal application of powergrid enhancement rigs) a Tristan can fit a 400mm armor plate and beef itself up to about 7000+ EHP. This is well above what most other frigates can get (average is around 3000 to 4000). With this amount of EHP you can't be "one-shotted" by Thrashers and Wolfs anymore... neuts don't bother you too much... and you can last longer against concentrated fire than if you were relying on hp regeneration. However, because you can't repair any damage you do incur (shields being the exception) you will often find yourself docking up and repairing after each fight.
Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
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Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
905
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Posted - 2013.10.13 18:52:00 -
[11] - Quote
Triple rep double nos Armageddon.
Eve is Real |
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
978
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Posted - 2013.10.13 19:06:00 -
[12] - Quote
One of the best things about buffer tanks is that with CDFEs and trimarks giving non-stacking-penalized % boosts to shield/armor hitpoints respectively, buffer tanks can get a bit ridiculous on some ships as long as you don't mind losing speed/agility to do it (or sig radius in the case of shield tanks).
Amarr ships happen to be slow anyway, and have the damage projection to make up for the lack of speed, and the low slots/base stats to take full advantage of buffer fits.
Furthermore, the cap use of armor reps doesn't synergize well with high-cap-use lasers. |
Mal Crichton
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
2
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Posted - 2013.10.13 21:15:00 -
[13] - Quote
Even if your fleet has no logistics, buffer tanks are usually better for fleet engagements with more than 10 ships on each side. The reason being that with an active rep tank, when you get primaried and you start repping, you may get of 1-3 reps before you die (ie, the other fleet essentially alpha's through your reps). Whereas if you have a large buffer, it will take the enemy fleet longer to take you down which means your dps is on field for longer.
This is of course compounded when you have logistics to rep your buffer tank up as well. |
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
220
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Posted - 2013.10.13 21:53:00 -
[14] - Quote
bubble trout wrote: Also, most of the time pvp is about killing stuff before you die.
This^... If you're ship goes pop before mine I no longer need reps... Unless you figured a way to fit guns to your pod? |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1524
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Posted - 2013.10.14 07:17:00 -
[15] - Quote
Seraph Castillon wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:Congrats, you've discovered one of the many reasons why shield tanking is better than armor tanking
BALANCE. I thought we were past that ...
just lol :P BYDI recruitment closed-ish |
Lunkwill Khashour
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
156
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Posted - 2013.10.14 11:47:00 -
[16] - Quote
James Pickers wrote:Hey. I have looked around for Amarr PvP tanks and quite a lot are buffer tanks, with hardeners and all that stuff. But I noticed that plenty didn't have an armor repairer?
So that means once your health is gone, it is gone and it isn't coming back.
This doesn't make sense, you can't buff 100% damage resistance so eventually you will die.
?
Can someone explain?
-Pickers.
Eventually you will die unless the other guy dies first. Amarr ships generally don't have the capacitor to run armor repairers and lasers. A lot of pilots will just fit some plates and fly with the intention of killing the other pilot before their (finite!) tank runs out.
Active armor tanking in PVP is subpar at the moment, apart from some exceptions like the Myrmidon or the Incursus.
It should also be noted that buffer tanking becomes better relative to active tanking if the other guys got more and more dps. |
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
187
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Posted - 2013.10.14 12:39:00 -
[17] - Quote
While there are situations where local repair ability is valuable, particularly if you're going to be a long way from home and therefore unlikely to be able to utilise any alternative, there are two primary drivers for a buffer-centric set-up excluding remote logistics. The first (and particularly notable in Amarr and Gallente ships) is capacitor. As running a local rep takes very large bursts of cap and so do Lasers (and to a lesser degree Hybrids) there is often the risk that, even without external cap pressure, the combination of guns and rep will drain the cap, leaving the ship unable to do either. Abandonning the guns might mean the ship can rep longer but dying slowly has never been of much benefit and so it is the rep which gets abandoned. The second factor is simply assessed efficiency. If the choice is between 2k armour hit points or 200 every 10 seconds then, by simple division it would be required for your ship to survive for 100 seconds under fire before the repair begins to generate more total armour than increased buffer would - if your estimated survival time is only one minute then the logical judgement is that the buffer increase is preferable. |
Lunkwill Khashour
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
156
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Posted - 2013.10.14 12:46:00 -
[18] - Quote
There is another option for high resist armor cruisers: A buffer and a medium repairer. These are especially useful far away from home and the repairer uses less grid than a second tank. Moreover, the buffer gives you time to run your repairer without the enemies volleying straight through your armor.
However, mixing buffer and active tanking in general is subpar. Be cautious with it. |
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