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Gefen Orion
Orion Star Ltd.
5
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Posted - 2013.10.14 12:17:00 -
[1] - Quote
I don't get it. Marauders DPS is not that impressive especially for a 1B isk ship. Take the Kronos as an example. A hyperion with rails and warden IIs, a domi with garde IIs or a navy megathron with rails and warden IIs can dish out almost the same dps, with almost the same range. A vindicator totally outclass a Kronos, period. So what's the point? Why train for a marauder, when its T1 counterparts can match its performance?
That monstrous tank is almost non-existent because of MJD range-tanking...
Salvaging is better suited for Noctis...
The only application for maruaders that i can think of are for null anomalies, where you jump in at 0 and blast everything within 30km...
Please enlighten me... |
Riot Girl
Krypteia Operations
1751
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Posted - 2013.10.14 12:22:00 -
[2] - Quote
Bastion mode. Oh god. |
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
544
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Posted - 2013.10.14 12:53:00 -
[3] - Quote
It seems that laserfags like me may have reasons to move to Paladin from NM. That's besides the point of this thread though. Other than that, I would like to address some points...
Gefen Orion wrote:That monstrous tank is almost non-existent because of MJD range-tanking... For Kronos and Vargur you either range tank, or you do your max DPS. Pick one. Remember that bastion module (where it is useable) allows you to use less tank mods and dedicate more for damage projection mods.
Gefen Orion wrote:Salvaging is better suited for Noctis... If it's about anoms an such, it's true. If it's about missions, salvaging is not advised at all, especially if you waste time bringing another ship for that, especially with those nev warp speed changes (unless you can multibox and salvage previous mission while you run the next). But with marauders you actually can pick up some stuff without spending any additional time for that (well, at least they are better suited for that, what's with 48 km tractor bems, 10 max targets and larger cargohold). Basically, it's bonus ISK/hr with the only thing you pay for that being your attention. Not bad really, but maybe not too good.
Gefen Orion wrote:So what's the point? Why train for a marauder, when its T1 counterparts can match its performance? I kinda agree that Marauders require more investment than even pirate BSs, and sometimes it isn't justified. CCP try to fit marauders into niches other faction ships can't occupy. We'll see if they will succeed. |
Marcus Gord
Korian Industrial Inc. Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
24301
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Posted - 2013.10.14 14:41:00 -
[4] - Quote
Remember the pirate BS's (including the Mach) are up for rebalancing, possibly in the near future. I don't see them continuing to outshine the Marauders afterwards.
They've already said the Mach is up for nerf because it has too much damage projection. You can't take the sky from me
"Demons run when a good man goes to war...." |
Liam Inkuras
Chaotic Tranquility Casoff
484
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Posted - 2013.10.14 15:26:00 -
[5] - Quote
What's the point of Marauders? To dunk gatecamps. I wear my goggles at night.
Any spelling/grammatical errors come complimentary with my typing on a phone |
Aeril Malkyre
Knights of the Ouroboros
285
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Posted - 2013.10.14 15:57:00 -
[6] - Quote
I dumped the Machariel for a Vargur. It stands up Level 4 missions like nothing else. Hellacious tanking, good damage with amazing tracking, low ammo consumption (which will jump your DPS if you opt for faction or T2), and with the advent of salvaging drones, looting the field while you kill.
I can have the entire wreck field cleared by the time I get to the acceleration gate, with 3 tractors and a flight of drones salvaging. Roughly doubles my income. I reprocess anything worth less than 20K, and use the minerals to build ammo so I can shoot pieces of the enemy back at themselves. Beautiful cycle. |
Gefen Orion
Orion Star Ltd.
5
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Posted - 2013.10.14 16:17:00 -
[7] - Quote
I guess it's time to invest on marauder hulls. Im speculating an exponential price increase come Winter expansion. Bastion Mode may just be the buff they need... |
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
905
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Posted - 2013.10.14 17:37:00 -
[8] - Quote
Right now even before rebalancing the ISK I make in my Vargur is just as much as the Mach for less overall work. It gets smaller bounty ticks but makes up for it in the salvage. Especially for missions that aren't in the system of origin. It has WAY better tracking for the small stuff also.
Also, said it before and I'll say it again probably, but jumping into the action is a good idea sometimes.
Eve is Real |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1491
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Posted - 2013.10.14 18:41:00 -
[9] - Quote
Gefen Orion wrote:I guess it's time to invest on marauder hulls. Im speculating an exponential price increase come Winter expansion. Bastion Mode may just be the buff they need... if only you could pre-produce marauder hulls to prepare for demand jumps... oh, wait!
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1279
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Posted - 2013.10.14 18:56:00 -
[10] - Quote
Riot Girl wrote:Bastion mode.
High sec missions POSs and SoonGäó POCOS, low sec gate camping POS and POCOS etc
But yep you can do all this for the same amount of isk in a pirate ship requiring far less skills training, so why bother? *removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |
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Jack Miton
Semper Ubi Sub Ubi
2374
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Posted - 2013.10.14 21:55:00 -
[11] - Quote
the point of marauders is to run l4 missions. the coming changes are not likely to change that. Stuck In Here With Me:-á http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/ |
Dorian Wylde
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
328
|
Posted - 2013.10.15 00:00:00 -
[12] - Quote
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:Riot Girl wrote:Bastion mode. High sec missions POSs and SoonGäó POCOS, low sec gate camping POS and POCOS etc But yep you can do all this for the same amount of isk in a pirate ship requiring far less skills training, so why bother?
The majority of starbases in hi sec are designed to be more hassle than is worth, by fitting large amounts of ECM to discourage people trying to attack them. Bastion mode makes you immune to e-war. Good luck taking down an appropriately built tower in a pirate ship. |
Fia Magrath
The Clown Inquisition
26
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Posted - 2013.10.19 16:32:00 -
[13] - Quote
Pirate battleships can do a bit more dps but cant loot/salvage nearly as effectively due to the lack of tractor bonus, lack of utility highs and lack of cargohold. Noctis can salvage and loot faster but requires you to come back, wasting precious time.
The marauder is a looting/salvaging platform with the ability to turn npc's into wrecks to feed the machine. A proper marauder elegantly drifts from one acceleration gate to another in a straight line, using aggro and timing to kill, loot and salvage all enemy ships by the time he reaches the next gate without sacrificing dps.
Also, wasting time MJDing in a lvl4 means your dps and overall efficiency is so low, none of it matters anyway. |
Oska Rus
Free Ice Cream People
34
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Posted - 2013.10.19 19:30:00 -
[14] - Quote
Just expensive toys for hi-sec people imho. Everywhere else its like having ship with skill requirements and price of carrier but 1/10th of hp and no RR or jump ability. |
Bibosikus
Aliastra Gallente Federation
156
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Posted - 2013.10.19 22:39:00 -
[15] - Quote
Marauders were introduced way before the Noctis, as a Tech 2 BS primarily for L4 mission running. The combination of low ammo-usage and tractor beam buff made them very attractive ships at the time.
When Apocrypha arrived, and W-space with it, we were using blinged Kronos to solo farm C3 sites. The Kronos (maybe the others too, I didn't use them) is fantastic for w-space because salvaging blue loot on the fly saves huge amounts of time. Of course, once W-space started filling up and blinged Kronos started appearing on killboards, it was time to move on. Besides, T3 ships had by then come down in price.
The Bastion module is set to revitalise these four boats somewhat, but all the EFT warrioring won't substitute for in-game experience so my money's still in my pocket. Besides I've got at least one of each lying about.. Somewhere.. The box said "Requires Windows-á2000 or better", so I installed Linux. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1568
|
Posted - 2013.10.20 11:30:00 -
[16] - Quote
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:Riot Girl wrote:Bastion mode. High sec missions POSs and SoonGäó POCOS, low sec gate camping POS and POCOS etc But yep you can do all this for the same amount of isk in a pirate ship requiring far less skills training, so why bother?
Why on earth would bastion help you with Pocos?
If you have Pocos by the way you should consider giving them to us. BYDI recruitment closed-ish |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
354
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 02:03:00 -
[17] - Quote
the optimal bonus the paladin is getting is super-duper sexy. pretty similar to the nightmare. for most pve I'd rather take the 5% optimal to the 5% tracking.
the other marauders the changes are pretty meh. my varg and kronos already have 3-4 damage mods and a rof rig. my paladin probably could now but was limited by power grid in the past. will probably also put a rof rig on the golem.
the falloff bonus on the kronos might be interesting, I haven't tested with it yet though. The vindi is better for most mission running I think, But the kronos is easier to fit, and way easier to tank.
vargur gets next to nothing with the changes. ability to fit arty helps it for some missions, but imo you are better off using a different ship in that case. For nearly any mission I'd rather have a mach though.
golem, 5s target painter change is the best buff. with the cruise change last patch I'll probably try it with a rof rig and missile velocity rig. throw in the 25% velocity buff from bastion and the missiles should stay mostly defender immune. I just can't bring myself to rip out the t2 velocity rigs right now.
oh yes and the ability to loot/salvage as you go is still important. I usually only pick a few battleship wrecks with stuff in them, but imo that is way better than going back to station and switching ships then coming back. plus for missions where I need to loot something it usually lets me get that way faster than with a 24km tractor beam. You can trust me, I have a monocole |
Maliandra
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
65
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Posted - 2013.10.21 02:31:00 -
[18] - Quote
The price tag does not justify any increases it has for defense.
As stated it's mean pretty much only for L4s and incursions.
So train BS V just for it? Maybe not. Train it if you want BS V anyways and/or those ******* spy ships I can't emember the name of |
Lady Naween
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
228
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 04:26:00 -
[19] - Quote
im tempted to train a golem for pvp. that TP bonus is so sweeeeet |
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
548
|
Posted - 2013.10.21 07:14:00 -
[20] - Quote
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:oh yes and the ability to loot/salvage as you go is still important. I usually only pick a few battleship wrecks with stuff in them, but imo that is way better than going back to station and switching ships then coming back. plus for missions where I need to loot something it usually lets me get that way faster than with a 24km tractor beam. I agree with the rest of your post, although this one can change depending on what kind of deployable stuff we will get in the future and how good it will be.
Lady Naween wrote:im tempted to train a golem for pvp. that TP bonus is so sweeeeet I'm pretty sure Hyena can do the same, although it depends on your willingness to fly as a support to a gang and/or willingness to spend 1.5 a bil on a ship |
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Lady Naween
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
228
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Posted - 2013.10.21 07:27:00 -
[21] - Quote
hyena is fragile as heck.. and 1.5 bill isnt exactly all that much for a fleet ship |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
357
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 04:04:00 -
[22] - Quote
Barrogh Habalu wrote:Chainsaw Plankton wrote:oh yes and the ability to loot/salvage as you go is still important. I usually only pick a few battleship wrecks with stuff in them, but imo that is way better than going back to station and switching ships then coming back. plus for missions where I need to loot something it usually lets me get that way faster than with a 24km tractor beam. I agree with the rest of your post, although this one can change depending on what kind of deployable stuff we will get in the future and how good it will be.
it sounds like the auto looter will be heavily gimped. I suppose it also depends on if it can be probed out or not, and if anyone can loot it. Someone said anyone could loot the mod that steals from silos, and someone suggested that the auto looter might work like that too.
maybe worth carrying a few in cargo and dropping + bookmarking the big rooms then come back later. but I will still want the tractor bonus for mission specific loot. You can trust me, I have a monocole |
Tauranon
Weeesearch Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
281
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 04:28:00 -
[23] - Quote
Gefen Orion wrote:I don't get it. Marauders DPS is not that impressive especially for a 1B isk ship. Take the Kronos as an example. A hyperion with rails and warden IIs, a domi with garde IIs or a navy megathron with rails and warden IIs can dish out almost the same dps, with almost the same range. A vindicator totally outclass a Kronos, period. So what's the point? Why train for a marauder, when its T1 counterparts can match its performance? That monstrous tank is almost non-existent because of MJD range-tanking... Salvaging is better suited for Noctis... The only application for maruaders that i can think of are for null anomalies, where you jump in at 0 and blast everything within 30km... Please enlighten me...
Only the kronos has enough cap booster capacity in cargo to full clear any mission in 1 pass (with blasters and an MWD) - and it does nearly 1600 dps in that mode. It doesn't always work, so I used to use a dominix for many missions, but the missions it did work in, it was spectacularly quick.
(also blasterboating missions is fun).
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Mocam
EVE University Ivy League
329
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 04:29:00 -
[24] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:the point of marauders is to run l4 missions. the coming changes are not likely to change that.
Truth there.
I'd hoped that they'd take this combat ship and make it PvP viable but the basion mode won't see much use beyond changing how it's used for PvE.
If it had damage bonus side to it, that could prove of worth for PvP use but a mini-dread lock-down that doesn't hit stuff harder? Not a good ship unless it's a dickstar you are going after where a dread can't be used and even then only if it won't be defended. |
Gh0stBust3rs
Wraith Shadow Guards
4
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 06:23:00 -
[25] - Quote
Maliandra wrote:The price tag does not justify any increases it has for defense.
As stated it's mean pretty much only for L4s and incursions.
So train BS V just for it? Maybe not. Train it if you want BS V anyways and/or those ******* spy ships I can't emember the name of
All of you are forgeting that alot of people already have BS V from when it was a requirement to train capital ships.
Its only been a few months since that skill change.
So when you factor in that training it was along the same route you were already training at some point it was pretty much a nice little bonus. Not something you went out of your way to train llike it would be now for newer players.
Also with the T1 and Faction hulls taking Racial BS to 5 is always a good idea.
Marauders are being worked on. I might even consider using one finally. |
Dorian Wylde
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
344
|
Posted - 2013.10.22 21:11:00 -
[26] - Quote
I think the point of the new marauders is not to make them great for pvp, just useful. Because as it stands now, they are not at all. Marauders were since their inception pve boats. The rebalance is not changing that role, it's just expanding it. They're still going to be good for pve, and now you can actually use one against players without being shut down completely by a tech 1 ecm on an unbonused ship.
You also can't look at the Bastion module by itself. Marauders are also getting a MJD bonus. The two together, from the design intent, look to be quite powerful. Testing will confirm one way or another, but you can't ever just look at one aspect of a ship and try to draw conclusions from only that. |
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