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Need help understanding optimal range mechanics

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 1 post(s)
oOReikaOo Michiko The Scope Gallente Federation 159	Posted - 2013.10.21 07:37:00 - [1] - Quote Why is optimal range a flat number? For instance your optimal range is 30,000 ... why isnt it 25,000 - 30,000? I dont understand why the second you get off 30k exactly you start to lose %.
Lady Naween Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel 228	Posted - 2013.10.21 07:40:00 - [2] - Quote optimal range is up to that range. not just that exact range
oOReikaOo Michiko The Scope Gallente Federation 159	Posted - 2013.10.21 07:40:00 - [3] - Quote Lady Naween wrote: optimal range is up to that range. not just that exact range So I will get 100% between 1m - 30,000 meters?
Mythrandier Spacelane Salvage 108	Posted - 2013.10.21 07:45:00 - [4] - Quote oOReikaOo Michiko wrote: Lady Naween wrote: optimal range is up to that range. not just that exact range So I will get 100% between 1m - 30,000 meters? Yes. IIRC it then drops to 50% damage between optimal and max fall off. "It is better to light a flame thrower than curse the darkness." --á T. Pratchett.
oOReikaOo Michiko The Scope Gallente Federation 159	Posted - 2013.10.21 07:49:00 - [5] - Quote Mythrandier wrote: oOReikaOo Michiko wrote: Lady Naween wrote: optimal range is up to that range. not just that exact range So I will get 100% between 1m - 30,000 meters? Yes. IIRC it then drops to 50% damage between optimal and max fall off. Oh that makes a TON more sense .. I was like wtf but i guess even still you need to deal with tracking modifiers..
Mythrandier Spacelane Salvage 108	Posted - 2013.10.21 07:53:00 - [6] - Quote oOReikaOo Michiko wrote: Mythrandier wrote: oOReikaOo Michiko wrote: Lady Naween wrote: optimal range is up to that range. not just that exact range So I will get 100% between 1m - 30,000 meters? Yes. IIRC it then drops to 50% damage between optimal and max fall off. Oh that makes a TON more sense .. I was like wtf but i guess even still you need to deal with tracking modifiers.. Indeed. http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Gunnery_Guide Everything you need to know (more or less) is in that article. "It is better to light a flame thrower than curse the darkness." --á T. Pratchett.
Livonia Velorea Banana Corp 9	Posted - 2013.10.21 07:57:00 - [7] - Quote The falloff is 99.9% - 50% chance to hit at max falloff againts a stationary target of equal size to your guns sig resolution I belive. It's also worth noting that falloff continues beyond what is mentioned on show info until you reach a 0% chance to hit.
Antihrist Pripravnik Paravan Korporacija 96	Posted - 2013.10.21 09:04:00 - [8] - Quote There are other factors included as well apart from optimal range. Like signature radius and tracking speed. Here's an interactive guide so you can play around a bit and figure out how it works: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0910/eve-tracking101.swf And yes, your optimal range is from 0m to 30,000m (0m instead of 1m issue was fixed a couple of years ago). CCP Ytterbium: Yarrblblbgrlblbgrlblblblbblbgrlblblbgrblblyarrrrdrooooooolonthekeyboardlikealunatic
Velicitia Emergent Avionics 1741	Posted - 2013.10.21 09:11:00 - [9] - Quote Yep, what everyone's said. The tracking formula is ... complex... to say the least. One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Kitty Bear Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam Disturbed Acquaintance 930	Posted - 2013.10.21 09:53:00 - [10] - Quote Livonia Velorea wrote: The falloff is 99.9% - 50% chance to hit at max falloff againts a stationary target of equal size to your guns sig resolution I belive. It's also worth noting that falloff continues beyond what is mentioned on show info until you reach a 0% chance to hit. IIRC it's roughly 2.4x to 2.6x where falloff tends to 0

No Means No University of Caille Gallente Federation 31	Posted - 2013.10.21 09:56:00 - [11] - Quote falloff range or gtfo optimal is for noobs
Arduemont 12 pound opinion 2205	Posted - 2013.10.21 10:00:00 - [12] - Quote Bear in mind that you are still best off firing at the optimal exact range (unless using missiles) for tracking reasons. If your optimal is 3000m, then try and stay at 3000m. Farther away will loose you DPS, and closer will loose you DPS if your target is orbiting. "In the age of information, ignorance is a choice."
Teinyhr A Club for Reputable Gentlemen 259	Posted - 2013.10.21 10:04:00 - [13] - Quote No Means No wrote: falloff range or gtfo optimal is for noobs Truer words have never been said.
culo duro EveryoneVersusEveryone.com EveryoneVersusEveryone.com. 315	Posted - 2013.10.21 10:12:00 - [14] - Quote oOReikaOo Michiko wrote: Why is optimal range a flat number? For instance your optimal range is 30,000 ... why isnt it 25,000 - 30,000? I dont understand why the second you get off 30k exactly you start to lose %. To answer your question in a graph.
oOReikaOo Michiko The Scope Gallente Federation 159	Posted - 2013.10.21 10:24:00 - [15] - Quote Is it a bit carebear of me to ask them to toss in a damage percentage under locked targets, showing what ur current % is at like in dust
Antihrist Pripravnik Paravan Korporacija 96	Posted - 2013.10.21 15:24:00 - [16] - Quote oOReikaOo Michiko wrote: Is it a bit carebear of me to ask them to toss in a damage percentage under locked targets, showing what ur current % is at like in dust No, it's not carebear to ask or suggest anything. There are multiple factors that define the damage % (as linked in my previous reply). From what I can remember at the moment, your damage % is depending on: - your optimal range - your tracking speed - the distance of the target - target's signature radius - sum of movement vectors of you and your target (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euclidean_vector#Addition_and_subtraction) These parameters are rather dynamic and are constantly changing, especially the resulting movement vector. When you take a shot the server calculates the damage by taking into account all of these parameters and delivers the damage message to you so it can be displayed. Since you already know that damage varies for every shot, namely because the sum of movement vectors is constantly changing, your damage percentage that would be hypothetically shown below the target would as well change with every shot. That means that you will not have a reliable information about the damage % until server calculates it. Having said that, it would be viable to have maximum damage percentage based only on optimal + falloff+ distance of the target. For example (given that your optimal is 30,000m and falloff 15,000m): - target is at 25,000m = 100% - target is at 45,000m = 50% - target is at 70,000m = 0% The downside could be that it would be confusing to new players who are yet to understand the interface and what everything in it actually means. CCP Ytterbium: Yarrblblbgrlblbgrlblblblbblbgrlblblbgrblblyarrrrdrooooooolonthekeyboardlikealunatic
Ptraci 3 R Corporation Boarderline Cartel 1378	Posted - 2013.10.21 22:16:00 - [17] - Quote oOReikaOo Michiko wrote: Lady Naween wrote: optimal range is up to that range. not just that exact range So I will get 100% between 1m - 30,000 meters? Yes, however the closer the target is to you, the greater your relative speeds/angular velocities. If your tracking skill is low or the gun you are using has poor tracking, you can have a bad guy well within optimal range and still not be able to hit. When that happens either speed up and put some range between you and him, or get into position where you can follow him and not have the angle change much. EVE is not just about optimal, it's about optimal AND tracking. Guns that track well are usually short range, guns that can't track usually have huge optimal ranges (but can barely hit a moving target).

ISD Ezwal ISD Community Communications Liaisons 479	Posted - 2013.10.21 22:27:00 - [18] - Quote This thread has been moved to EVE New Citizens Q&A. ISD Ezwal Lt. Commander Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department

Rekon X Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 31	Posted - 2013.10.21 22:47:00 - [19] - Quote Ptraci wrote: oOReikaOo Michiko wrote: Lady Naween wrote: optimal range is up to that range. not just that exact range So I will get 100% between 1m - 30,000 meters? Yes, however the closer the target is to you, the greater your relative speeds/angular velocities. If your tracking skill is low or the gun you are using has poor tracking, you can have a bad guy well within optimal range and still not be able to hit. When that happens either speed up and put some range between you and him, or get into position where you can follow him and not have the angle change much. EVE is not just about optimal, it's about optimal AND tracking. Guns that track well are usually short range, guns that can't track usually have huge optimal ranges (but can barely hit a moving target). You can especially see this with projectile artillery weapons, etc. You start shooting inside your optimal range and you miss a lot unless it's something slow with a large signature. You can look at all the charts, information, and simulations. But until you go out and put it into practice, it won't really be clear. Just watch your damage numbers at different ranges on different size ships.
Tau Cabalander Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs 2173	Posted - 2013.10.21 23:03:00 - [20] - Quote 0 to optimal : you do not miss because of range (you can miss because of poor tracking), and hit quality is maximized. optimal to optimal + falloff : the deeper you get into falloff, the more likely you are to miss because of range, plus the hit quality drops. It is possible to hit out to optimal + 2 * falloff, but you miss so much that it is pointless. Typically one should try to not stray past optimal + falloff. Planning for optimal + 1/2 falloff is a better idea, as it gives you more manoeuvring options. Lasers operate entirely in optimal, because they have a very short falloff. Crystals radically change the range of lasers. The further the range, the less thermal damage a laser does; longest range Radio crystals produce only EM damage. In contrast, projectile AutoCannons typically operate in falloff, as they have a very short optimal. https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/File:Falloff.png https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Turret_damage

Termy Rockling EVE University Ivy League 86	Posted - 2013.10.21 23:05:00 - [21] - Quote In short, optimal really is the optimal. Any further and you get rangepenaltys. Any closer and you get more tracking penaltys. At optimal your range and tracking penalties combined effect is minimized. If both parties are totally still, then you can ignore the tracking part and sit at 0.
Imaslaver Taron Fugutive Task Force A T O N E M E N T 6	Posted - 2013.10.22 01:11:00 - [22] - Quote My understanding is some where in betweeen the optimal and fall ranges, i.e at say 3,000 meters which in my case would be optimal, now taking into consideration if I am using lasers I have to be somewhere within that range otherwise I cant do nothing almost. But if I stay within the falloff range to my optimal then thats would be considered as a sweet spot. You have to experiement with some one to find the "sweet spot" so you know what you can do. This of course depends on so many factors such as weaponry and types of ammo/charges used. I'm still learning myself so once I have enough experience I'll be able to share what I know. FLY RECKLESS
Sabriz Adoudel Mission BLITZ 1010	Posted - 2013.10.22 01:19:00 - [23] - Quote Chance to not incur a miss due to distance is: 0 to Optimal Range: 1 More than optimal range by X falloffs: 0.5^(X^2) So if you are at optimal range plus 1.3 falloffs, your chance to not incur a miss due to distance is 0.5^1.69. Without a calculator handy, I'll estimate that at 32%. Basically: - Under optimal: never incur a miss - Between optimal and optimal plus 0.6 falloffs: occasionally incur a miss - O+0.6 F < distance < O+1.3 F: Often incur a miss - O+1.3 F < distance < O+2F: Usually incur a miss - O+2F < distance < O+2.5F: Almost never hit, but still worth firing - O+2.5F< distance: Never worth firing. There is a separate chance to incur a miss due to tracking https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=238931 - an idea for a new form of hybrid PVE/PVP content. The difference between an enemy and a friend is that you stab your enemies in the front.
J Dobrila Untwinked 0	Posted - 2013.10.22 08:42:00 - [24] - Quote Something that has not been pointed out yet despite twenty posts saying the same thing is that the in-game weapon tooltip "falloff" is in fact optimal+falloff, not the real falloff.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 17175	Posted - 2013.10.31 15:10:00 - [25] - Quote It's a bit late, but this post inspired me to get this whole mess off my chest GÇö basically a pretty detailed look at the turret and missile formulas and what they actually mean in terms of doing damage to your target. It might not really be GÇ£new citizenGÇ¥ material, but if you want to dive right into the nitty gritty details, it should all be there (and incidentally answer the question in the OP). GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0.
oOReikaOo Michiko The Scope Gallente Federation 221	Posted - 2013.10.31 15:11:00 - [26] - Quote Tippia wrote: It's a bit late, but this post inspired me to get this whole mess off my chest GÇö basically a pretty detailed look at the turret and missile formulas and what they actually mean in terms of doing damage to your target. It might not really be GÇ£new citizenGÇ¥ material, but if you want to dive right into the nitty gritty details, it should all be there (and incidentally answer the question in the OP). Holy thread revival batwoman http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfSDNPFCPfY


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