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Recent events, forum moderation, and the warning/ban system

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 25 post(s)
Dust Angel	Posted - 2006.02.01 23:22:00 - [91] Originally by: Meridius Originally by: Tharrn Originally by: Meridius You should be thanking the 'subject', if such a character wasn't banned this sort of thing would have continued. Instead people keep screaming double standard without realizing this is actually going to help everyone. Except of all the other people who have been banned and for whom no exception is made... Rules either need to be applied to everyone equally or to noone. If you read the thread you'd know that things are going to change so people don't get the perm ban hat over posts that are just outside the rules. Yes it's sad that it had to start with an 'infamous' character but hey, things have to start somewhere. But there are other "infamous" people who enjoy permabans ((That one guy and that one girl come to mind)). So they Took a step back in this case, but what about the other cases? thye either have to apply it evenly to all banned characters or to none. _____________________________________ Stressed out with empire politics? Sansha's Nation helps clear your mind.
DigitalCommunist	Posted - 2006.02.01 23:23:00 - [92] I think the reason why Wrangler said it won't ever happen again is because by the time a similar situation (as these are not common) comes up, the new updated rules will be in effect. People just assume the worst implications of that statement, which is why someone should slap Wrangler for being so vague :P

Wrangler	Posted - 2006.02.01 23:28:00 - [93] Originally by: DigitalCommunist I think the reason why Wrangler said it won't ever happen again is because by the time a similar situation (as these are not common) comes up, the new updated rules will be in effect. People just assume the worst implications of that statement, which is why someone should slap Wrangler for being so vague :P I'd prefer to be slapped to keep me awake considering I've been dealing with this for a lot of hours now. Ok, it is wrong of me to say something like this wont happen ever again, because we do have some freedom in what we do. Things are taken on a case by case basis, but the more we go from the policies we have (and FYI, we usually disregard policies when it's best for the players, not worse ie dont ban when we should ahve etc) we need to discuss it with CCP. However, I can almost hear people starting to discuss getting their or their friends old permabans revoked, and that won't happen. Obviously we've learned from this case, and we'll make sure we do our best to avoid situations like this in the future. I <3 Imaran, he is for teh sexeh winÖ But Eris Discordia beats them all Apart from Imaran, because he's Teh PwnÖ IBTL - Imaran click -Capsicum [Read the Rules!] - [Contact us]

Vince Draken	Posted - 2006.02.01 23:35:00 - [94] I guess my question is if the permabann is getting overturned for this guy, how is it fair to other players who have been permabanned? I am talking about another very visable members of the community who also wrote very long and detailed posts and roleplayed it very well. How can be altering the rules for one and not the rest possibly be fair and even justifyable? The above thoughts and statements are IC and should be taken as such.

Wrangler	Posted - 2006.02.01 23:37:00 - [95] Well, it might be fair and justifyable, and it might not be. However, remember that you don't have all information regarding this, and without that information you are not really qualified to determine the fairness. And no, we wont release all the details, since that is against our policy. I <3 Imaran, he is for teh sexeh winÖ But Eris Discordia beats them all Apart from Imaran, because he's Teh PwnÖ IBTL - Imaran click -Capsicum [Read the Rules!] - [Contact us]

Vince Draken	Posted - 2006.02.01 23:40:00 - [96] Edited by: Vince Draken on 01/02/2006 23:41:21 Edited by: Vince Draken on 01/02/2006 23:40:25 Right, I understand that and I dont think it would be fair to expect that of ccp/mods. My only concern is that changing the rules to fit one person, famous, infamous, or not midstream for just that one person means the rest of us are less important. Add: I do appreciate the fact that this is allowed to be discused though The above thoughts and statements are IC and should be taken as such.

Wrangler	Posted - 2006.02.01 23:41:00 - [97] Originally by: Vince Draken My only concern is that changing the rules to fit one person, famous, infamous, or not midstream for just that one person means the rest of us are less important. I understand that it looks that way, and I know I can't tell anyone why it's not true, but trsut me, it isn't. I <3 Imaran, he is for teh sexeh winÖ But Eris Discordia beats them all Apart from Imaran, because he's Teh PwnÖ IBTL - Imaran click -Capsicum [Read the Rules!] - [Contact us]

Vince Draken	Posted - 2006.02.01 23:42:00 - [98] Originally by: Wrangler Originally by: Vince Draken My only concern is that changing the rules to fit one person, famous, infamous, or not midstream for just that one person means the rest of us are less important. I understand that it looks that way, and I know I can't tell anyone why it's not true, but trsut me, it isn't. Fair enough Thx for the reply The above thoughts and statements are IC and should be taken as such.
Dust Angel	Posted - 2006.02.01 23:44:00 - [99] Originally by: Wrangler Originally by: Vince Draken My only concern is that changing the rules to fit one person, famous, infamous, or not midstream for just that one person means the rest of us are less important. I understand that it looks that way, and I know I can't tell anyone why it's not true, but trsut me, it isn't. Its not? then what about the others who were permabanned for equally minor offences (forum sig size ect) and remained banned to this day? Its unfair to them that "the subject" gets unbanned while they dont. _____________________________________ Stressed out with empire politics? Sansha's Nation helps clear your mind.
Kular	Posted - 2006.02.01 23:46:00 - [100] Aside from the issues I brought up about forum features to view your warnings ect, more info on permabans would be nice. Basic stuff like. "Whats the Ideology behind permabanns in the first place?" Why do they exist at all instead of like 1month, 6months, 1 year.. After actually reading all the rules (haven't done that since I made a sig) I can't find anywhere the 10 warning rule being mentioned, or exxactly what constitutes a "serius" warning versus just a "warning" I know what you have stated as the rules, and it does say CCP reserves the right to set the rules as they go, but perhaps some documentation to go along with all this? I dunno, just rambling now never really thought much about this stuff before. For God, Empire, and Sarum!
DigitalCommunist	Posted - 2006.02.01 23:50:00 - [101] Obviously we can't go into details here, as its against the rules of the forum, and be shant be breaking any of those today ;) But my question is a bit complicated, so I'll try and make this clear. You say ISD has learned from the situation and will try and avoid it.. but it has happened before and you confirm no action will be taken in those cases. Its happened now, and action was taken. It will definitely happen again, whether or not you seek to avoid it, and action might be taken. What does that mean for the rest of us?
Avon	Posted - 2006.02.01 23:54:00 - [102] Originally by: Wrangler And no, we wont release all the details, since that is against our policy. Then again, so is unbanning people. Can I ask who is protected by not relesing details of moderation? I know for a fact that if my warnings were made public it wouldn't reflect as badly on me as it would on ISD. Actually, I would welcome it. I wonder how many other people that is true for? Is all the cloak and dagger meant to protect us from each-other, or is the reason to protect those in positions of responsibility from scrutiny and accountability from those they are meant to serve? I would like to see CCP, and ISD, adopt a more open and progressive policy with regards to moderation. On a side note, I think it may be unfair to press ISD on the issue we are not discussing. It seems likely that the descision was not theirs. Possible reasons for the turn-about? 1. The person we are not talking about turns out to be a dev. 2. The person we are not talking about is in a position to damage CCP in print. 3. The person we are not talking about used one of his sleeper agents to leave a note on Oveurs desk, simply stating "I know where you park your car, and the keys were in your bottom drawer. 4. CCP just played favorite. I would love to think 3 is true. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Selena Sellion	Posted - 2006.02.01 23:57:00 - [103] I tell you what would be REALLY nice. A 1 warning amnesty to EVERYONE, so that all permabans are unbanned but only have 1 warning left. What honest harm could it do? If they are BAAAD people theyll be banned again in no time. If they have learnt their lesson then unbanning them is justified. Also this way, you cant be accused of double standards.
DigitalCommunist	Posted - 2006.02.01 23:59:00 - [104] Originally by: Avon Possible reasons for the turn-about? 1. The person we are not talking about turns out to be a dev. 2. The person we are not talking about is in a position to damage CCP in print. 3. The person we are not talking about used one of his sleeper agents to leave a note on Oveurs desk, simply stating "I know where you park your car, and the keys were in your bottom drawer. 4. CCP just played favorite. I would love to think 3 is true. 1. Hell no. 2. Yes, the person we are not talking about is. But very unlikely that course of action would ever be taken, so not a factor. 3. zips up - sleeper agents, what? 4. No idea I really have no clue, actually. So lets just leave it at that.
Nooey	Posted - 2006.02.02 00:03:00 - [105] A lack of transparency is unhealthy, surely that is plain to see. Community thoughts fester in the darkness of secrecy. Don't become the enemy CCP. ____________
Avon	Posted - 2006.02.02 00:06:00 - [106] Edited by: Avon on 02/02/2006 00:08:14 Originally by: DigitalCommunist Originally by: Avon 3. The person we are not talking about used one of his sleeper agents to leave a note on Oveurs desk, simply stating "I know where you park your car, and the keys were in your bottom drawer. 3. zips up - sleeper agents, what? Sorry, I just had this lovely mental image of TomB suddenly sitting bolt upright, talking in a robot voice, and mooching around CCP HQ all shifty like. I'll get right back on my medicaton. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
j0sephine	Posted - 2006.02.02 00:06:00 - [107] "However, I can almost hear people starting to discuss getting their or their friends old permabans revoked, and that won't happen. Obviously we've learned from this case, and we'll make sure we do our best to avoid situations like this in the future." Perhaps too naive question, but what exact mindset is behind this "we will never ever ever ever ever allow people banned post on this forum post again. ever. no, really. not even on their death bed" stance? How exactly does the community benefit from removal of posting rights of old members with no chance ever to contribute again? I mean, scrolling back few pages, reasons were given why this kind of permanent moderation can cause problems for players. If what you say is correct -- that this thread has really no relevance, and the community management is basically locking themselves up in the ivory tower of "we make no mistakes" and just carrying on with year+ delayed ideas of how things are to be run ... then it's pretty disappointing to be honest. And i don't see any sign anyone learned anything from this case either, when you say yourself it has no impact whatsoever on how the moderation will be performed.
Hellspawn01	Posted - 2006.02.02 00:12:00 - [108] Originally by: Wrangler Well, it might be fair and justifyable, and it might not be. However, remember that you don't have all information regarding this, and without that information you are not really qualified to determine the fairness. And no, we wont release all the details, since that is against our policy. I dont understand why we talk about an issue without you giving us all details? ------ BlogÖ WTS Core-X EM hardener
Hellspawn01	Posted - 2006.02.02 00:20:00 - [109] Originally by: Avon 1. The person we are not talking about turns out to be a dev. A dev cant get 10 forum warnings. ------ BlogÖ WTS Core-X EM hardener
DigitalCommunist	Posted - 2006.02.02 00:24:00 - [110] Originally by: Hellspawn01 Originally by: Avon 1. The person we are not talking about turns out to be a dev. A dev cant get 10 forum warnings. Actually he can, if he uses his player char. I'm sure theres a few out there who will testify to this
MadGaz	Posted - 2006.02.02 00:26:00 - [111] Any way to find out how many bans you've had so far? I've lost count.
Vince Draken	Posted - 2006.02.02 00:28:00 - [112] Originally by: Selena Sellion I tell you what would be REALLY nice. A 1 warning amnesty to EVERYONE, so that all permabans are unbanned but only have 1 warning left. What honest harm could it do? If they are BAAAD people theyll be banned again in no time. If they have learnt their lesson then unbanning them is justified. Also this way, you cant be accused of double standards. I totaly agree with this. There then would be no conflicting view points or charges of favortism. As the OP points out, there is no downside. The above thoughts and statements are IC and should be taken as such.
Hellspawn01	Posted - 2006.02.02 00:34:00 - [113] Edited by: Hellspawn01 on 02/02/2006 00:34:35 Originally by: DigitalCommunist Originally by: Hellspawn01 Originally by: Avon 1. The person we are not talking about turns out to be a dev. A dev cant get 10 forum warnings. Actually he can, if he uses his player char. I'm sure theres a few out there who will testify to this If its a dev¦s player char, then why would he/she risk getting him/her forum banned? And if its a dev, how would you know? ------ BlogÖ WTS Core-X EM hardener
MadGaz	Posted - 2006.02.02 00:35:00 - [114] Originally by: Hellspawn01 Edited by: Hellspawn01 on 02/02/2006 00:34:35 Originally by: DigitalCommunist Originally by: Hellspawn01 Originally by: Avon 1. The person we are not talking about turns out to be a dev. A dev cant get 10 forum warnings. Actually he can, if he uses his player char. I'm sure theres a few out there who will testify to this If its a dev¦s player char, then why would he/she risk getting him/her forum banned? And if its a dev, how would you know? You'd be surprised.
Kyle Chimko	Posted - 2006.02.02 00:46:00 - [115] thank you! and i must say eve is the only game i have come across where the employees actually listen to the community and care about them. Sure there are a whole buch of games out there that i am too ignorant to recognize but from what i have come across eve is greater at it :D.
w0rmy	Posted - 2006.02.02 00:55:00 - [116] Did you know... You can be banned from the forums for saving a mods email address in your addressbook with a name of 'Mohammed Saeed al-Sahaf'
Kahn Moquil	Posted - 2006.02.02 00:57:00 - [117] The idea of a general amnesty for permabans isn't bad in my opinion. Maybe with a few exceptions for people who were banned for the most serious of offences (threatening with RL violence, that sort of stuff). What are the mods/devs thoughts on this amnesty being granted once the new moderating system is in place? The banned people will either have learned their lesson by now (and perhaps grown up a couple of years in some cases), or will get banned again in a short amount of time if they can't control themselves. Doing this would make a lot of people happy I suppose. I'd like to add that I have the utmost respect for the mods. Think of their decisions what you like, but remember that these are people spending a lot of their own time trying to keep our beloved forums from turning into a mudhole of ranting and flaming.
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2006.02.02 00:58:00 - [118] Originally by: Wrangler Originally by: Vince Draken My only concern is that changing the rules to fit one person, famous, infamous, or not midstream for just that one person means the rest of us are less important. I understand that it looks that way, and I know I can't tell anyone why it's not true, but trsut me, it isn't. Wrangler, I simply do not believe you, I'm afraid. No, I'm not going to do something stupid over it, but it does decrease the respect I hold for CCP by a measurable degree. Digital Communist> The Jin-Mei are probably more profficient in training for Tofu and Noodles than Spaceship Command
MadGaz	Posted - 2006.02.02 01:08:00 - [119] Edited by: MadGaz on 02/02/2006 01:08:42 thread does not exist my arse
Alex Kynes	Posted - 2006.02.02 01:15:00 - [120] Might as well share my 2 ISK on this subject. In my opinion permanent bans are a bad form of a default punishment in any online community due to the fact that people tend to be more, lets say, socially aggressive and honest to themselves, there. And, like stated previously by someone else, forums are a huge part of this game. Banning someone temporarily from forums is like gagging him/her. It's unpleasent at the best. Permanently banning someone is like cutting ones tongue out. It's brutal. EvE today is what people, the community, have made of it. Cutting someone off from the community should only be reserved for the most extreme cases of forum abuse when it is clear the the person in question is not here to contribute anything. /AK

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