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Caleb Seremshur
Gladiators of Rage Fidelas Constans
125
|
Posted - 2013.10.26 21:07:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hello
I have an issue regarding the price for faction weapons in the LP store. In brief the cost in tags for these weapons is too high. Tag generation rates have suffered from a series of patches and game design changes but the lp store tag costs haven't been adjusted to compensate. What we see now is these weapons are disproportionately expensive to other weapons of the same type. This is not an issue of drop rates: players can physically build these modules and that needs to be accounted for.
I request a rebalance of their cost to increase availability as the end goal. Read my thread here for my thoughts on eve economy https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=263968&find=unread --- Mining in game, from the perspective of an IRL miner. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3503687&#post3503687 ----á for FW rebalance in 2013 |

wagashi
Aliastra Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2013.10.27 06:18:00 -
[2] - Quote
There is indeed a lot of tags that are required for each module,but the price of those tags still haven't gone up to ridiculous yet. you can source any of the tags at any of the market hub systems. also place buy orders at "staging systems" of FW corps. |

Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
12184
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 11:48:00 -
[3] - Quote
IMO Faction weapons generally are overpriced by about an order of magnitude. Given that they don't in practice outperform T2 (due to the effect of weapon specialisation skills) and can't use T2 ammo, they should have a target price of around double the equivalent T2 gear, triple at most.
That would actually make them a viable alternative to T2 rather than just vanity ornaments.
EDIT: And such a change would also allow them to serve as a useful alternative if we see runaway T2 materiel prices.
1 Kings 12:11
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Caleb Seremshur
Gladiators of Rage Fidelas Constans
127
|
Posted - 2013.10.28 23:19:00 -
[4] - Quote
Op updated with more info Read my thread here for my thoughts on eve economy https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=263968&find=unread --- Mining in game, from the perspective of an IRL miner. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3503687&#post3503687 ----á for FW rebalance in 2013 |

Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
12214
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 09:53:00 -
[5] - Quote
This really is a good idea, because faction weapons should be a usable alternative to T2. They're not OP, I can't see how this would break anything, and it has several beneficial consequences.
Before I try and escalate this, is there anything problematic that anyone can see with this? I've tried and I can't.
1 Kings 12:11
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Eliza Loney
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
3
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Posted - 2013.10.29 18:28:00 -
[6] - Quote
I would love to be able and use my LP to buy ships and modules directly ( at inflated LP costs of course)
That should encourage people to upgrade I-hubs more.
My other thoughts on tags:
Exchange tags for LP directly at a fixed rate based on the tag level ( or variable so CCP can adjust it as needed ) - All items would be LP only other than items that need other things like Nexus chips, Data cores, ammo etc
-OR-
Have 2 different prices on the same item, one with tags, one without.
- With tags would be a better LP / Tag ratio than the strait LP cost - The Tag market and gathering may pick up in response to better LP / Tag ratios - More people in faction warfare to gain access to the faction equipment
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Jasmine Assasin
State War Academy Caldari State
81
|
Posted - 2013.10.29 22:33:00 -
[7] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:This really is a good idea, because faction weapons should be a usable alternative to T2. They're not OP, I can't see how this would break anything, and it has several beneficial consequences.
Before I try and escalate this, is there anything problematic that anyone can see with this? I've tried and I can't.
Not that my opinion counts for much because ~NPC CORP~ but I can't really think of anything bad about this. Right now EVE-Central puts the average price of FN 250mm rail guns at something like 116m each. A rack of those would pay for a small fleet of fully fit Battlecruisers. To me that's broken. |

Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2541
|
Posted - 2013.10.30 00:47:00 -
[8] - Quote
Faction weapon imbalance is another issue that would ideally be rolled into a 'metacide' initiative for module balancing along the same lines as the tiericide of ship hulls we have already seen. Fozzie has indicated previously that such a balancing project might be on the cards eventually but if those plans can be made reality then the sooner the better. CCP: Not out to ruin your game, out to ruin their game. |

Caleb Seremshur
Gladiators of Rage Fidelas Constans
130
|
Posted - 2013.10.31 19:35:00 -
[9] - Quote
6 days since I posted this thread without anyone raising an issue. Can this now be put forward to CCP? Click here for LP store weapon cost rebalancing |

Caleb Seremshur
Gladiators of Rage Fidelas Constans
150
|
Posted - 2013.12.21 14:42:00 -
[10] - Quote
Observed the new RHML launcher addition to cal navy LP store. It costs the same number of tags to produce 5 of these as it costs to produce a BPC for 5 run 200mm railgun
That's a battleship weapon for as cheap as 200mm railguns (cruiser weapon). How does this make sense at all? Click here for LP store weapon cost rebalancing |

Nariya Kentaya
Always Negative
752
|
Posted - 2013.12.22 19:16:00 -
[11] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:This really is a good idea, because faction weapons should be a usable alternative to T2. They're not OP, I can't see how this would break anything, and it has several beneficial consequences.
Before I try and escalate this, is there anything problematic that anyone can see with this? I've tried and I can't. IMHO, faction weapons should outperform T2, but only until specialization 3 or 4 for the T2 weapon, as fara s weapons go, the ONLY kind of modules that should ever perform better or equal to T2 at lvl 5 spec is DED or officer gear, faction should be allowed T2 ammo but become weaker compared to T2 after spec 3 or 4. hell, kinda on the fence on whether faction should perform so much better as it does than T2 for the other module types as well, makes T2 kinda silly in a lot of cases, where the "benefit" of that faction is a better module for triple or quadruple the cost, but extra fitting room to make an overall vastly superior fit than if you had used T2, making it a huge benefit. but whatever, CCp will do whatever the hell they please. |

Caleb Seremshur
Gladiators of Rage Fidelas Constans
150
|
Posted - 2013.12.23 03:30:00 -
[12] - Quote
Cost should never be used as a balancing factor. What you pay for an item on the market is your decision alone. The point of contention here comes from the manufacturing cost from the LP store - taken against the raw stats performance of the item and finally the supply of materials from the source.
As I detailed above - the supply of tags for these items used to be part of FW plexing, in addition to mission farming. Now though the issue is much harder since those FW tags have been removed and all that remains are FW missions and regular missions. The average player will not farm tags from FW missions surely because of the immense danger that being in low sec and running a mission alone represents but also because of the loss of potential LP gain and the delay in the rewards from that mission alone. Running missions like that in small fleets cuts in to everyones profits - it's a really badly designed system. High sec mission running will produce tags 'eventually' thanks to getting oodles of useless pirate tags first. I guess you could go to a border system from one high-sec to another and start farming the NPC police that come to kill you but that seems slow and inefficient. At least non-FW gankers will get concorded i guess.
Thirdly and lastly are the raw performance for faction weapons over t1/t2/officer weapons. Not much to say here, grab the compare tool next time you're in game and take a look. It depends on what faction you're taking the weapon from and what kind of weapon you want. Faction weapons should definitely NOT have access to t2 ammo - the only reason to train t2 specialization is because of the t2 ammo. Faction weapons in my opinion are really our meta5 weapons while t2 are our meta 6 items. It would more accurately represent the kind of dedication to their training that when fully decked to level 5 specialization a t2 blaster outperforms a faction blaster.
Once again though i leave those technical details to the balancing staff, my concern here is making the supply of faction weapons easier - such that they aren't 30 or 40 million for a small neutron fed navy because they don't *have* to be that costly as compensation for the effort of making them. Even pirate faction weapons which share identical stats are often significantly cheaper only because they're so much easier to acquire. LP store weapon cost rebalance |

Super Chair
Project Cerberus Caldari State Capturing
579
|
Posted - 2013.12.24 09:55:00 -
[13] - Quote
I would actually like that CCP carry the same attitude they have with faction ships (they want to see more of them in space). I support making faction weapons (and at least all navy faction modules) more accessible (much more volume and cheaper (2-3 times the price of the T2 module, not 100x in some cases). Perhaps remove a large portion (if not all) of the tag costs? It could follow similarly to the difference between FW and highsec NPC corp LP store prices as it is with the ships. I don't even think you would need to rebalance the faction weapons that much. There should a choice between using faction and tech II. You lose the ability to use tech 2 ammo (which is a big deal) but you don't really gain that much from a faction weapon to justify the cost as it is now, slightly higher rates of fire (which are almost the same as T2 because of specialization skills), lower fitting, more ammo capacity, etc. Project Cerberus is recruiting for the US Timezone, click here |

Hasan al-Askari Mujahideen
Islamic Movement of Minmatar
2
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Posted - 2014.02.16 12:02:00 -
[14] - Quote
it does need to be nerfed or updated to make it eazer to cash out, also another way to add more tags is to have players in fw drop rank tags, it would give a reason to hunt down players. |

Sean Parisi
Fugutive Task Force A T O N E M E N T
504
|
Posted - 2014.02.21 16:07:00 -
[15] - Quote
Agreed. Lets give us more realistic fitting options. More options for using our lp as well as encouraging the lp isk sink. I would love to see faction modules used more. Without ridiculous pricing. |

X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
2058
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Posted - 2014.02.21 16:24:00 -
[16] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:This really is a good idea, because faction weapons should be a usable alternative to T2. They're not OP, I can't see how this would break anything, and it has several beneficial consequences.
Before I try and escalate this, is there anything problematic that anyone can see with this? I've tried and I can't. The original BPO holders of T2 weapon systems will see their profits drop to only healthy levels. |

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
3565
|
Posted - 2014.02.21 17:04:00 -
[17] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:This really is a good idea, because faction weapons should be a usable alternative to T2. They're not OP, I can't see how this would break anything, and it has several beneficial consequences.
Before I try and escalate this, is there anything problematic that anyone can see with this? I've tried and I can't.
I completely concur that faction modules could use a serious rebalancing pass. At the moment, they generally come across with somewhat jumbled attributes, sometimes being better then t2, sometimes worse, sometimes just different.
I think asking CCP to spend some time rebalancing them, from their attributes to their build costs would be generally a good thing. I don't know where I prioritize it, but it is an area of game play that needs tweaking.
To be honest, this is not a small project, and shouldn't be treated in such a manner.
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Bull Crap
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
0
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Posted - 2014.02.24 22:39:00 -
[18] - Quote
They should give additional attribute bonus to faction mods if they go on the corresponding faction ship, like a 5% bonus. That would make those faction guns more usable and other seemingly useless faction mods. |

Caleb Seremshur
Capital Storm. The Storm Collective
202
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 01:36:00 -
[19] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Malcanis wrote:This really is a good idea, because faction weapons should be a usable alternative to T2. They're not OP, I can't see how this would break anything, and it has several beneficial consequences.
Before I try and escalate this, is there anything problematic that anyone can see with this? I've tried and I can't. The original BPO holders of T2 weapon systems will see their profits drop to only healthy levels.
It is worth mentioning that faction weapon bpcs are another isk sink and require multiple sources of labour to create. If faction weapon build costs should face a rebalance then including data/relic site materials would be a good addition on top of mining and tags. LP store weapon cost rebalance |

Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
13955
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 08:40:00 -
[20] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Malcanis wrote:This really is a good idea, because faction weapons should be a usable alternative to T2. They're not OP, I can't see how this would break anything, and it has several beneficial consequences.
Before I try and escalate this, is there anything problematic that anyone can see with this? I've tried and I can't. The original BPO holders of T2 weapon systems will see their profits drop to only healthy levels.
I doubt it tbh. Faction weapons generally use less cap and fitting, and have a lower skill requirement in return for a little less dps, no T2 ammo and less availability. Most doctrines will still be based on t2 imo.
1 Kings 12:11
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Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries VOID Intergalactic Forces
73
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 15:15:00 -
[21] - Quote
The reason for faction prices being so high is you don't need the advanced training to use the but they can function on around that if t2. T2 ammo isn't all that, it's very limiting except for so missiles, there is no middle ground for a lot of t2 ammo, which is also why faction ammo cost more than t2 ammo. Example is artillery has quake at a very short range, then tremor at very long range, on the other hand you can get every flavor of ammo type as republic navy and have a wide range of distance and damage types "Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mine" -Dr. Smith |

Caleb Seremshur
Capital Storm. The Storm Collective
207
|
Posted - 2014.03.19 23:52:00 -
[22] - Quote
I see what you're saying but none of that is strictly true is it.
If you plug in to pyfa a given fit and then copy it, modify it to have faction weapons and then directly compare when at all v skills the t2 ship will perform just as good if not slightly better.
The advantage of faction weapons is their lower fittings. The rof and other stats are really high but not so high to be game breaking. Also I will lean back on my op and state again that the effort to build a faction weapon is quite considerable but that the market sells pirate weapons with identical stats for often much less. Just compare fn 200mm rail gun vs ss rail gun and notice the price difference.
I can't really say much more than I already have so when I get home I'll build some ships in pyfa and transliterate their stats on to here. Can not do very much on my phone here. LP store weapon cost rebalance |

Caleb Seremshur
The Atomic Fallout Kids
287
|
Posted - 2014.06.09 04:35:00 -
[23] - Quote
Ok so months later I've given some more time for things to work themselves out.
http://s83.photobucket.com/user/MrBenis/media/Factionvsnon-factionfit_zpsdf5ec6eb.jpg.html
The above is two identically fit cerbs, with one being modified to use mostly faction modules. Salient points are as follows.
T2 fit cerb is 1% over PG. T2 cerb is 0.4% over cpu.
DPS stats compare at 610 for the faction, 593 for the t2 cerb with CN kinetic HAM. A difference of 2.8% EHP is 20.8 faction, 19.5 t2. A difference of 6.35%. The faction cerb is 2.5% faster.
T2 fit is 21m in mods. To make it use no fitting mods requires only changing to a meta 3 scram and plugging in a 2% pg implant. I personally swapped to a 3% grid implant because they're more common. Total fitting in this case is circa 19mil + the 3% implant. Combined cost is 214mil.
Faction cerb is 436mil in mods. That is not a typo. For 20.7x the amount of money for a t2 fit you get 2.8% more dps, 6.35% more ehp and move less than 3% faster. You also don't need a grid implant. Lucky you.
Notice that I deliberately left out crazy over-priced things like CN BCS and CN invuls because pithum invuls are better and cost nearly the same, CN BCS would net you 35 dps more. The extra 35 dps increases the difference to 8.1% dps. The difference in cpu would allow you to remove the overclocker thus giving you access to a t2 EM rig if you wish. At this point your fit is 912 mil at a cost of 755million in mods.
Fits like that are ALOD specials but they shouldn't need to be. The combination of tags, LP and the effort required in farming them topped off with getting the right missions in the first place combine together to make some of the least cost efficient modules in the game. As stated earlier in the thread and throughout the forums in many places there are pirate faction drops with identical stats that are sometimes 1/4 the price of a FW store weapon.
I think that this problem is severe and it impacts the game for everyone wishing to kit out their ships. It affects the game negatively because much like the just-passed pirate implant rebalance which saw HGs increased to +4 in order to make them a more desirable alternative to +5 clones insofar as encouraging active use over passive training clones I really think dropping the price on FW weapons and mods could see a couple of major benefits to the economy. It would see people using LP items with much greater frequency and as we know they're an ISK sink which will help everyone in the long term. It will see an incentive to run more FW missions to collect tags thus reducing the appeal of afk farming by a margin. It will give people who like to do things themselves the chance to build their own ship in a very true sense. T3 production is out of the question for many solo players but a FW ship powered by FW modules is certainly achieveable.
I want people to remember that this is a game about risk vs reward and that in the case of FW items the risk of loss is far higher than the reward they bring. This is not some flash-in-pan theory, the market clearly supports it through the ludicrous pricing and FW item stores are sorely out of date by nearly 4 years. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=348015 T3 OHing subsystem review and rebalance https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=290346 LP faction weapon store costs rebalancing
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Valentine al-Askari
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2014.06.18 12:22:00 -
[24] - Quote
i know there has been a lot of talk and a good bit the threds asking for this change I would like to see this happen
for a Caldari Navy Warp Disruptor you need 38 Federation Navy Fleet Captain Insignia I 61Federation Navy Fleet Major Insignia I thats kinda insane just to get them |

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
4007
|
Posted - 2014.06.18 14:58:00 -
[25] - Quote
CCP is planning to rebalance modules in the upcoming future. Now, this might mean 6 months, or it might mean 2 years, but winter is coming. I'm very certain they will examine the build costs and stats at that time. |

Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
13
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Posted - 2014.06.19 21:26:00 -
[26] - Quote
Caleb Seremshur wrote:Ok so months later I've given some more time for things to work themselves out. http://s83.photobucket.com/user/MrBenis/media/Factionvsnon-factionfit_zpsdf5ec6eb.jpg.htmlThe above is two identically fit cerbs, with one being modified to use mostly faction modules. Salient points are as follows. T2 fit cerb is 1% over PG. T2 cerb is 0.4% over cpu. DPS stats compare at 610 for the faction, 593 for the t2 cerb with CN kinetic HAM. A difference of 2.8% EHP is 20.8 faction, 19.5 t2. A difference of 6.35%. The faction cerb is 2.5% faster. T2 fit is 21m in mods. To make it use no fitting mods requires only changing to a meta 3 scram and plugging in a 2% pg implant. I personally swapped to a 3% grid implant because they're more common. Total fitting in this case is circa 19mil + the 3% implant. Combined cost is 214mil. Faction cerb is 436mil in mods. That is not a typo. For 20.7x the amount of money for a t2 fit you get 2.8% more dps, 6.35% more ehp and move less than 3% faster. You also don't need a grid implant. Lucky you. Notice that I deliberately left out crazy over-priced things like CN BCS and CN invuls because pithum invuls are better and cost nearly the same, CN BCS would net you 35 dps more. The extra 35 dps increases the difference to 8.1% dps. The difference in cpu would allow you to remove the overclocker thus giving you access to a t2 EM rig if you wish. At this point your fit is 912 mil at a cost of 755million in mods. Fits like that are ALOD specials but they shouldn't need to be. The combination of tags, LP and the effort required in farming them topped off with getting the right missions in the first place combine together to make some of the least cost efficient modules in the game. As stated earlier in the thread and throughout the forums in many places there are pirate faction drops with identical stats that are sometimes 1/4 the price of a FW store weapon. I think that this problem is severe and it impacts the game for everyone wishing to kit out their ships. It affects the game negatively because much like the just-passed pirate implant rebalance which saw HGs increased to +4 in order to make them a more desirable alternative to +5 clones insofar as encouraging active use over passive training clones I really think dropping the price on FW weapons and mods could see a couple of major benefits to the economy. It would see people using LP items with much greater frequency and as we know they're an ISK sink which will help everyone in the long term. It will see an incentive to run more FW missions to collect tags thus reducing the appeal of afk farming by a margin. It will give people who like to do things themselves the chance to build their own ship in a very true sense. T3 production is out of the question for many solo players but a FW ship powered by FW modules is certainly achieveable. I want people to remember that this is a game about risk vs reward and that in the case of FW items the risk of loss is far higher than the reward they bring. This is not some flash-in-pan theory, the market clearly supports it through the ludicrous pricing and FW item stores are sorely out of date by nearly 4 years.
T2 guns with max skills give more damage with same ammo as faction guns with max skills. Only missiles are an exception here where the faction launcher are better with max skills than T2.
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Caleb Seremshur
The Atomic Fallout Kids
300
|
Posted - 2014.06.19 22:21:00 -
[27] - Quote
At sustained dps using faction ammo otherwise they're outperformed by speciialist ammos. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=348015
T3 OHing subsystem review and rebalance https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=290346
LP faction weapon store costs rebalancing
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Anthar Thebess
541
|
Posted - 2014.06.26 12:54:00 -
[28] - Quote
Price of tags is dictated by players. It is like moon goo. Why r64 are so expensive, people should be selling it cheaper. Support Needed : Jump Fuel Consumption |

Caleb Seremshur
The Atomic Fallout Kids
311
|
Posted - 2014.06.26 13:55:00 -
[29] - Quote
Anthar Thebess wrote:Price of tags is dictated by players. It is like moon goo. Why r64 are so expensive, people should be selling it cheaper.
Read the thread properly.
I said tag sources have been nerfed while lp store costs are too high.
Thanks for playing. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=348015 T3 OHing subsystem review and rebalance https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=290346 LP faction weapon store costs rebalancing
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