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Missile skills, devourer of SPs?

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Marcus Walkuris Aww yeahhh 21	Posted - 2013.11.03 10:46:00 - [1] - Quote Heyall, Wall of text incoming, lazy eyes scroll down for summary. So here we are close to a new expansion and the glorious news of weapon turrets no longer fitting into a tree is brought to us. Now someone can go straight to medium large or whatever turret size they please (no sarcasm intended). More flexibility in gunnery, while ship skills were put into more rigid skill-trees opposite to the upcoming gunnery remake. Little confusing this swap when a desire for more linear progression was expressed by CCP... Is this odd to anyone but me?? Do you look at missile skills and see one weapon system that has over 3x the investment vs profit ratio of gunnery, more so now then ever with much less versatility? Currently missile support skills combined have a total multiplier of 21x vs gunneries 18x. (obviously not adding capital specific support skill; Tactical Weapons Configuration or smart-bombs under missiles). Before specialization: Missile skills add up to a total of 18x excluding auto targeting and defender which in a sense fall under E-war and are a combined 5x. Capital missile skills add up to 14x double any gunnery capital turret type, and are still a joke. One should add the need for target painting as an extra support skill necessary for a complete missile support picture which add up to 12x multiplier with little pressure to MAX out but not to be scuffed at since it is vastly more SP effective then 6 individual weapon specialization at lvl4/5. Disregarding target painting would be a close equivalent of gunnery without tracking computers. Your bill at check out may vary: 21+18+14+12=65 or 21+18+12=51 for the most realistic representation of SP spent. Capital missiles are fubar leaving a most realistic 51x multiplier for sub capital missile skills or -12 for those that can't accept the reality of target painting at 39x. Gunnery support skills add up to 18x multiplier while opening up 3 weapon systems, all its damage/tracking modules are passively gained through universal/basic support skills. Another point of attention is that gunnery support skills have lower multipliers then missile support meaning maxing out skills does less then maxing missile support and is thus less needed. (this does not mean "OMG gunnery support skills need buffed" since the final damage numbers aren't magically reduced"). Before specialization's; Sub Capital Turret skills add up to 27x multiplication, which is 3 weapon systems. Capital turrets add 21x. Total at check out: 18+27+21=66 Or a more realistic -14 for one capital gunnery skill or -21=45 for sub-capital gunnery. A functional sub-capital equivalent of missile skills; one gunnery line which comes down to 9+18=27 a 27x multiplier compared to 51x with target painting or 39x without for missiles. Why mention SP invested before specialization skills? Simple, because those are very iffy numbers considering they are rarely trained to lvl5 and at lvl4 are still at 1/5th SP cost of lvl5 a beginning player will have specialization at lvl3 which again is 1/5th of lvl4. Gunnery takes much more SP in this regard small weapons 18x, medium 30x, heavy 48x. 18+30+48=96. Missiles:Small 6x, medium 10X, heavy 16x. Here you see exact 1/3 ratio akin to one turret type skill tree 6+10+16= 32 perfect sense. With all these skills at lvl 4 though you end up with 19.2x for gunnery and 6.4x for missiles, or 6.4 for any weapon system. Why not include capital gunnery or missiles, well they are horribly dominated by the ship skills the turret skills just follow ship choice. Maybe someone out there collects titans but from a serious SP comparison perspective this can't be factored let alone capital missiles as they are silly bad.
Marcus Walkuris Aww yeahhh 21	Posted - 2013.11.03 10:46:00 - [2] - Quote Summary. Final multiplication bills for those deciding on sub capital weapon systems: -Projectiles: 9+16=25 +6.4 for specializing to lvl4=31.4. (note that projectiles have no need for Controlled Bursts x2 multiplier.) -lasers and hybrids: 9+18=27 +6.4=33.4. -all of sub-cap gunnery specialized till 4: 96+19.2=115.2. -missiles:18+21=39 +6.4=45.4 +target painting skills at lvl4= 47.8. Final note: Outside support skills, missile skills costs exactly double the SP of a gunnery skill tree and these are your first lvl5 required skills pure and simple since they unlock techII and specialization skills. This means that the SP mountain for missiles is FAR FAR higher considering the realistic lvl3 skills that will dot the landscape of a beginners missile or gunnery skill-set in support skills, but much longer so in specialization skills. Therefor around specialization to lvl3 the closer missiles will come to costing a true 2x more instead of 1.5x and this is the immediate reality for a beginning player, even in support skills since you will have to deal with target painting and missile support of 12+21=33x vs 16x for projectiles and 18x for lasers/hybrids. Flying a caracal with RML you will notice one volley from all launchers only insta-pops elite frigs at MAX skills. There is much more a need to max out in missiles, since medium slot sized RML are governed by Light Missiles. Soon to be large sized RHML by heavy missiles. (The everything affects everything phenomena, perhaps stealth bomber torpedoes will soon fall under rockets!! ok silly...) In any case small lasers won't govern the smallest version of medium lasers, wouldn't it be wonderful to dance and sing!! Ehhh I mean if missiles were the same. I am not a fan of massive SP reimbursement but I am even less a fan of the current missile system in about 95% of its implementation. Currently it leaves a beginning player literally stuck in missiles once they go beyond a certain point of investment. You can invest 14.4x 1.7 mill of optimal SP training on missiles and switch to lasers and be as fast as maxing out missiles. But horribly wasting SP in the process, especially considering switching over to gunnery usually means a complete swap of ship skills. Anyone in favor of having a gunnery like straight forward "missile skill tree" instead of the "missile skill train-wreck/shrubbery??" Opinions, ideas appreciated!
RavenPaine RaVeN Alliance 527	Posted - 2013.11.03 16:22:00 - [3] - Quote Long post is long... I have to say, I agree with you on some points. Especially when they are presented as individual points Some of your maths is confusing to me...but I did just wake up But in the big picture, I think missiles have nice individual paths. I never did rockets V until very recently. I never did Lights to V. I never did Heavy assaults to V. I trained the missiles I wanted, and the specs to IV as needed. Total SP: 10,000,000ish Gunnery on the other hand... I trained supports to V, and tiers to IV and along the way I discovered: You can have 10,000,000 SP in gunnery, and still not have ONE T2 GUN. No Smalls, no Mediums, no Large. Then I started up the spec tiers. Total SP: 18,000,000ish before Capital Turrets, 21mil+ after Cap guns. Imo, if you use a gun as a primary weapon system, you're going to get it to V anyway. Skipping a lower tier will save time, but not a lot in the big picture. TLDR; My gunnery SP has doubled my Missile SP. Gunnery is actually my second largest skill sync. Even though this is my Missile Guy http://eveboard.com/pilot/RavenPaine (My Gun guy has almost 4 times more sp in guns vs missiles)
Aliventi Stimulus Rote Kapelle 532	Posted - 2013.11.03 17:34:00 - [4] - Quote Some math and a solution. "tbh most people don't care about removing local from highsec. They want it gone from nullsec. I want to be able to solo roam hunt without everyone knowing I am there without them actually seeing me jump through the gate. Effortless intel is bad." ~Me
Marcus Walkuris Aww yeahhh 22	Posted - 2013.11.03 19:43:00 - [5] - Quote Thank you guys, hope it was a decent read. So RavenPaine I see some very nice skills. But yeah what I hear you say is something commonly said by people that started out in gunnery it never felt like that much of a grind. Which of course has to do with being able to fall back on a reliable weapon-system, 3 tiers of 1 skill for 2 ranges. Missile skills have suffered from non viable or super focussed skills for a very long time now, and the individual path of "straight to cruise missiles" has distracted from this for a very long time now. You can just jump into a raven and not look back but taking support skills alone into consideration you are spending the same if not more (due to the missile tracking skills patching a mayor hole in design), For someone starting in missile skills however this is quite the headache, switching over to gunnery isn't a smart choice at all there is no cherry picking because your main weapon-system is extremely support skill hungry. The cherry pick concept is literally a gun/drone user phenomena. I started in missiles and it was depressing so I switched to drones, best choice I ever made to tare off the moldy bandage. The large launchers/BS race has been a common point of "point and laugh at missile user trolls". Not even saying that is what you are saying, but the truth has always been that if you skip to large, you jump into tracking issues and target painting. Even if you do this, support skills are at a 21x multiplier, 8x is 2 mill SP or a month at optimal SP per hour. Gunnery support is between 16x to 18x which is multiplier 1x more or less then leveling a small and medium turret. If you don't do this, you have a normal progression akin to gunnery, but vastly slower especially in the beginning phases, wether you start out belt ratting or missioning this progression is unescapable when sticking to missiles from the start. To make matters worse with gunnery a switch from hybrids to lasers is a joke compared to missiles to gunnery, to illustrate the hurdle of support skills. You are looking at double the SP in missiles at completion and then start on gunnery, you just did missiles you can't progress anywhere else but gunnery and drones, realistically having ventured into drones at this point. Drones being the better choice since they still mix even though missile boats use way less drones to the point of being borderline pointless below BS size, which missile skills naturally funnel you towards from an SP efficiency standpoint. Once a newb starts in missiles it is a bear-ificating process, especially when vets tell you missiles are faster to train... You end up wearing the clothes given to you since missiles just downright take longer. I figure the way to deal with this would be to lower missile through uniformity. Their support skills as well to be about a third of gunnery support, and moving them into a rebranded gunnery with certain gunnery skills performing a dual function for missiles and turrets. Aliventi, nice post I liked it and will likely post there. Although I disagree and always have with the quicker specialization of missiles view shared by most. Ahh another beautiful wall :D.....
Mashie Saldana BFG Tech 770	Posted - 2013.11.03 23:03:00 - [6] - Quote Marcus Walkuris wrote: P.S. Raven at 18mill SP your sub-cap gunnery is maxed essentially. Missiles are at over half the SP of gunnery for less then a third of gunnery's usefulness. No that is halfway to the 36m sp required to max out subcap gunnery. Mashie Saldana Dominique Vasilkovsky
Marcus Walkuris Aww yeahhh 23	Posted - 2013.11.04 01:10:00 - [7] - Quote Mashie Saldana wrote: Marcus Walkuris wrote: P.S. Raven at 18mill SP your sub-cap gunnery is maxed essentially. Missiles are at over half the SP of gunnery for less then a third of gunnery's usefulness. No that is halfway to the 36m sp required to max out subcap gunnery. OHh absolutely, note I say "essentially" maxed. It is not the hard cap for sure, but specializing till lvl4 is by and large the unofficial goal for being "essentially" maxed as most would not go further. Of course in a fair gunnery to missile comparison, one ought to divide by 3. This post is built entirely on the premise of going for lvl4 in specialization as the last level has some of the lowest returns in EvE. Missiles have no more specialization skills then one line of gunnery, but double the initial investment and more support skills with higher returns/pressure to max out especially the 2 tracking skills. It is extremely SP hungry more so for a low SP player then anything, and through the lens of a division by 3 still boggles the mind. The specialization skill multiplier for missiles is a perfect 1/3 split at 32x. The skills before specialization for missiles take 39x in skill multiplication (8x standing for 2mill SP) 51x considering the real need for target painting, versus a 22x before specialization skills for gunnery, considering a 1/3 split in shared support skills and the individual turret tiers. I didn't choose to look at it from a retrospective view like that, because it doesn't fairly reflect the hurdle one faces during progression.
Mashie Saldana BFG Tech 771	Posted - 2013.11.04 09:46:00 - [8] - Quote It would be interesting to see you add the drone skill tree as well into this comparision as they are as similar to turrets as missiles are. Mashie Saldana Dominique Vasilkovsky
Sable Moran Moran Light Industries 253	Posted - 2013.11.04 13:10:00 - [9] - Quote I'm not entirely sure I can see the problem here, possibly it's just that I don't have enough tea in my bloodstream yet. You're saying that you see this (what ever it is) especially a problem for new characters but here's a little anecdote for you to mull over. I have a character which is Amarr and lazors all the way, no missile skills at all, zero SP in that category. Until recently. I noticed that there are some nice T2 missile boats for Amarr and decided to train the relevant skills. Them being all support skills and rocket + light missiles. I decided to train them all to level 4. The character has a per+wil remam and +3 implants. The first missile skill I bought 21.09.2013 18:56 (I checked the wallet) and it's safe to assume that I started training that skill pretty much immediately after buying it. After 22 days and 21 hours I had all the support skills at level 4, the Missile Launcher Operation skill at 5 because it was a prerequisite for one of the support skills and rockets at level 4. Add a day and a half for light missiles level 4 which I trained a bit later. The character is now happily spewing missiles all over the place and stuff seems to die quite nicely. So about three weeks until one can use missiles at about 80% of maximum efficiency. Frankly I don't see the problem for new guys. In absolute terms three weeks isn't that long. And in comparison to gunnery skills, why would there be a need to have the training times be similarly long? Or in anyway similar? Again I suppose I'm asking what exactly is the problem you perceive here. Sable's Ammo Shop at Alentene V - Moon 4 - Duvolle Labs Factory. Hybrid charges, Projectile ammo, Missiles, Drones, Ships, Need'em? We have'em, at affordable prices. Pop in at our Ammo Shop in sunny Alentene.
Marcus Walkuris Aww yeahhh 23	Posted - 2013.11.04 14:55:00 - [10] - Quote Mashie Saldana wrote: It would be interesting to see you add the drone skill tree as well into this comparision as they are as similar to turrets as missiles are. Well drones have a much different dynamic all together since it can be a primary and a secondary weapon-system. This means regardless of how much it costs it can still be run along side other weapon systems while being your primary source of damage as well. Gunnery/missile splits have essentially been removed, even if you can a spare high slot on a minnie ship for a rocket launcher it wont have a bonus for it. You wont loose out on anything training drones as they just go alongside gunnery or missiles. Sable the scenario you illustrate is exactly the opposite of what I am talking about. When you are a new player there are many classic motions you go through. You spread out your SP too much, not exactly sure what you want and then when you get an idea you invest. Should you have chosen missiles you don't just swap over anything, you will most likely be stuck deeply into caldari ship and shield skills, which have range bonuses for hybrid weapons.... This is the funnel effect missile boats have, the most useful ones are caldari based, caldari ships don't like hybrid weapons as much as advertised and missiles take more investment then gunnery, you stick to it or throw your arms up. Every SP counts and switching to gunnery is just a waste as people learn and grow into missiles, and become familiar with its tracking issues they tend to try to fix it. Your scenario of switching to missiles to cherry pick is not so doable if you started with missiles and haven't maxed support, There is no pressure to switch to missiles either as you are referring to your alt. Rockets and light missiles are the least problematic skills in missiles and actually give a warped sense of the bigger picture due to the lack of tracking issues. Should you go for medium sized missiles you will start feeling the pressure to venture into target painting, and how important the tracking/painting skills are will become apparent within a day of flying cruisers and up. This is where you are at after playing EvE for 3 months or so, a long time not knowing what you are doing. You don't just que up 22 days and turn the computer off, you grow into a skill set you have no experience with at all. For missiles these are a matter of you skill them or suck, gunnery has insane comparative leeway from kiting ,npc direct approaches and better tracking + the flexibility of 2 turret types (long/short range) per tier. On top of that it is not rocket science (or is it? :D) to know anyone new aims for cruisers or BS to secure a stable means of income. Income requires efficiency and going for say; lvl5 HAM's and getting techII, 5% damage and a quick -6% rate of fire from specialization is your only logical goal aside from support and the relevant ship skills since they are the force multiplier skills. Hope that clarifies.

Mashie Saldana BFG Tech 771	Posted - 2013.11.04 15:35:00 - [11] - Quote As a new Gallente player you can go pure drones all the way from frig to BS without touching gunnery or missiles. Hence the interest to see the SP investment required in comparision to guns and missiles. I cooked a dedicatd bomber alt a few years ago, it was rather painless to get into T2 torps with max support. After all the pre-requisite missile skills were only needed at base level 3. Had it been a tree similar to the current gunnery one it would have taken a few more months. The reason the missile skill tree looks like it does is because missiles were supposed to be support weapons just like drones in the original design. Mashie Saldana Dominique Vasilkovsky
Marcus Walkuris Aww yeahhh 23	Posted - 2013.11.04 17:57:00 - [12] - Quote Mashie Saldana wrote: As a new Gallente player you can go pure drones all the way from frig to BS without touching gunnery or missiles. Hence the interest to see the SP investment required in comparision to guns and missiles. I cooked a dedicatd bomber alt a few years ago, it was rather painless to get into T2 torps with max support. After all the pre-requisite missile skills were only needed at base level 3. Had it been a tree similar to the current gunnery one it would have taken a few more months. The reason the missile skill tree looks like it does is because missiles were supposed to be support weapons just like drones in the original design. That is quite interesting a read, one I personally was not familiar with. Missiles as a support system, quite interesting it puts certain things into perspective. I mean the tracking mechanics make much more sense now. I knew that missiles used to have an actual AoE and literally explode, but not that it was more of a support thing. It makes it more clear a anti-drones support system, and it being a support system was supposed to balance out the fact it has AoE damage. I've heard stories of how BS used to blow up multiple frigs with missiles which yeah little too much of a good thing. Combat related Drones skills come down to a total multiplier of 31x before specialization, and without capital drone skills. Just to reiterate that although it has 4 x5 specialization skills, they only provide a 2% damage increase which is quite a bit inferior to both gunnery and missiles -2% in rate of fire. Carrier drone skills are a massive 32x multiplier total, but... They are rather unique. Point of reference again a 8x multiplier stands for 2 mill SP and a month at perfect SP per hour. 31+20+32=a lot, or 83x. (this is all on uniwiki under skills btw). Also note that drones has the most futile skills to max out as far as I understand like advanced drone interfacing, and the mentioned faction specific drone specialization SP/effect ratio. Also drones ignore all faction boundaries in their function and work alongside gunnery and missiles making it incomparable to missiles and gunnery imho. A bomber alt is another example of what doesn't compare. When we as older players build another character it is always with ease. Furthermore, a bombers engagement profile for the most part forgives a lot of when it comes to non perfect missile support as you can go for an aggressive target painter build+speed/sig tank. It isn't like a medium sized missile launcher vs fast cruisers/multiple frigates, or PvE scenarios of very mixed signature/speed sizes. It remains like comparing fixing your current car to buying a second car. Missiles are your starter car that just doesn't want to work, leaving you low on funds when you need a second vehicle. P.S. I recommend any beginning player to start with drones and then go for gunnery and decide what they want before they go for sentry drones. You need drones no matter what you do as a combat focussed character, well just about.
Aivo Dresden Red Federation RvB - RED Federation 107	Posted - 2013.11.08 11:40:00 - [13] - Quote Mashie Saldana wrote: As a new Gallente player you can go pure drones all the way from frig to BS without touching gunnery or missiles. I have all the sub cap drone skills maxed, with the racial specializations on IV. That puts me just under 10mill SP. Although, there are several rank 5 skills you could leave at 4. Stuff like Durability, Electronic Warfare Drone Interfacing and possible Heavy drones too, since they are a little meeeh and just never use them when you already have Sentries. You could get away with having 6mill Sp in Drones.
Kitty Bear Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam Disturbed Acquaintance 976	Posted - 2013.11.08 13:32:00 - [14] - Quote Mashie Saldana wrote: It would be interesting to see you add the drone skill tree as well into this comparision as they are as similar to turrets as missiles are. Drones are a little weird ... well I think so anyway. In how they apply effects Sentry Drones = Turrets other Drones = Missiles from a skill training aspect, i'd say they have more in common with missiles than they do with the current gunnery skill system Ewar/Utility Drone skills are entirely optional Heavy Drone Skill is optional as well The drone tree is mostly Rank 5 skills, so it's not a quick/cheap time investment.
Marcus Walkuris Aww yeahhh 25	Posted - 2013.11.08 15:10:00 - [15] - Quote Aivo Dresden wrote: I have all the sub cap drone skills maxed with the racial specializations on IV. That puts me just under 10mill SP. Although, there are several rank 5 skills you could leave at 4. Stuff like Durability, Electronic Warfare Drone Interfacing and possible Heavy drones too, since they are a little meeeh and just never use them when you already have Sentries. You could get away with having 6mill Sp in Drones. Yes exactly I stipulated that earlier. I will have to be really SP saturated to consider drone durability 5, or even faction specific drone specialization 4 as I believe it has no effect on sentries and is still equal to a 1x multiplier in training time for 2% damage. I am at 5 mill SP in drones and around 7 mill I will be done with it for the longest time. Sentry drones need only electronic warfare drone interfacing upped as I personally find that one of the lvl 5 skills. Kitty Bear wrote: The drone tree is mostly Rank 5 skills, so it's not a quick/cheap time investment. While I agree with that analogy, it doesn't have to be either. I mean heavy drones are all but outdated in most cases and only function by the merits of hull bonuses. So the more realistic skill path that is currently available is actually super fast. Think about it, in the drone skill tree; Navigation, Sharpshooting, drones, scout drone operations are x1's, combat drone operations is a x2. Say you wish to go for sentry drones, the only skill in this line up that needs to be lvl 5 is drones, and sharpshooting+drone interfacing at 4. Then you can do some serious damage with faction sentry drones/modules, and sentry drone interfacing at lvl4 while you max out the relevant support skills for techII modules, all x2 and x1 to lvl5. This is dead cheap if you consider none of these skills affect application aside from sharpshooting, and damage through sentry drone and drone interfacing. Drones realistically is the cheapest of all weapon-systems with the widest range of uses, you can max your potential damage with sentries at less then 4 mill SP, or a realistic 13x multiplier, 3.25 mill. (drones 1x, scout drones 1x, sharpshooting 1x, drone interfacing 5x, sentry drone interfacing 5x, with drone durability at 3 not added to the equation but an easy train as well as combat drone operations lvl1 x2 multiplier). The only disclaimer is that it is highly implausible that you will have the best attributes for drone SP, but it should still be faster under those circumstances. Which is why I always recommend new players to go drones/gallente first and gunnery after if they still don't know. I thought about making a newbie skill route for a while I might still do it, but I have no connections to websites or the skills to do it myself. Doesn't help I have no EFT atm without a windows computer, although I could do it without at this point.
Aivo Dresden Red Federation RvB - RED Federation 107	Posted - 2013.11.08 15:25:00 - [16] - Quote You need Drone Interfacing 5 though. That's arguably one of the best drone skills there is. It's a flat 20% damage PER LEVEL for all drones. This includes sentries. EDIT: Ok, I see you added that in. Good stuff! :) EDIT2: To be honest, all of this is kind of situational and depends largely on what you're planning on killing. You can do some very selective training. There's really no reason why you would do all those skills in one go.
Marcus Walkuris Aww yeahhh 25	Posted - 2013.11.08 15:35:00 - [17] - Quote Made it a second post to avoid wall of text... Kitty Bear wrote: Drones are a little weird ... well I think so anyway. In how they apply effects Sentry Drones = Turrets other Drones = Missiles from a skill training aspect, i'd say they have more in common with missiles than they do with the current gunnery skill system Ewar/Utility Drone skills are entirely optional Heavy Drone Skill is optional as well. I think you could say that, I don't know how drones track when they are on their target it seems they track like missiles but with wrecking hits. Speed+sig size which makes sense cause they always orbit, with different speed per faction type. So they have travel time and track according to the missile model but with wrecking hits like gunnery. Or in the case of sentries they are like gunnery, so yes a fair assessment I reckon. They are so very different from both though in the fact they can be destroyed themselves with such more severe consequences. Which in PvE situations can translate into being able to tank with your drones if you have Remote Rep fitted, especially with faction navy drones. And the travel time of-course making for brawlers, with sentries being the sniper counterpart.
Kitty Bear Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam Disturbed Acquaintance 977	Posted - 2013.11.08 16:56:00 - [18] - Quote yep, which is why I think drones are a little weird
Ransu Asanari Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables 33	Posted - 2013.11.09 11:07:00 - [19] - Quote I'm glad to see the discussion on the skillpoints disparity - it seems many of us feel this way, and the back and forth on the RHML module seems to show there isn't a solid plan behind it. I'd rather see CCP wait and fix missiles properly, rather than introduce new modules only to have to fix them later. I've started a thread in the Jita Park Speakers Corner about this - maybe we can push this to get some focus around the need for some attention to the missiles weapon system.
Marcus Walkuris Aww yeahhh 26	Posted - 2013.11.09 18:37:00 - [20] - Quote Ransu Asanari wrote: I'm glad to see the discussion on the skillpoints disparity - it seems many of us feel this way, and the back and forth on the RHML module seems to show there isn't a solid plan behind it. I'd rather see CCP wait and fix missiles properly, rather than introduce new modules only to have to fix them later. I've started a thread in the Jita Park Speakers Corner about this - maybe we can push this to get some focus around the need for some attention to the missiles weapon system. I liked BC,destro as a universal skill much more especially with BC new degree of pointlessness at this point in game. IT essentially gave you a sampler if you weren't sure about committing to a certain factions play-style. Tiericide in gunnery isn't my cup of tea at all. I'd much rather see tiers and missiles the same as gunnery. Not going to happen of course, but with the addition of 6 mill SP to grind 24x multiplier from the separation of BC/destroyer skills. You would think that missiles are next to be dealt with, or so did naive me.

Marcus Walkuris Aww yeahhh 59	Posted - 2013.12.19 20:18:00 - [21] - Quote Bump, getting some likes here and there but no replies. Not dead entirely but no bumpage.
Lilan Kahn The Littlest Hobos 181	Posted - 2013.12.20 14:44:00 - [22] - Quote You dont need the same level of training in missiles as you do in gunnery.
Marcus Walkuris Aww yeahhh 59	Posted - 2013.12.20 14:57:00 - [23] - Quote Lilan Kahn wrote: You dont need the same level of training in missiles as you do in gunnery. Ok, how do you mean? Your analyses is a bit short :P..
Lilan Kahn The Littlest Hobos 181	Posted - 2013.12.20 17:10:00 - [24] - Quote Marcus Walkuris wrote: Lilan Kahn wrote: You dont need the same level of training in missiles as you do in gunnery. Ok, how do you mean? Your analyses is a bit short :P.. in order to get large t2 guns you need ALL the previous levels at 5, then specs at 4. missiles you just skip to what ever "size" of missiles you want train that to the previous sizes to 3 then that 5 and then go yoink plug in the spec book.
Marcus Walkuris Aww yeahhh 59	Posted - 2013.12.20 18:59:00 - [25] - Quote Lilan Kahn wrote: Marcus Walkuris wrote: Lilan Kahn wrote: You dont need the same level of training in missiles as you do in gunnery. Ok, how do you mean? Your analyses is a bit short :P.. in order to get large t2 guns you need ALL the previous levels at 5, then specs at 4. missiles you just skip to what ever "size" of missiles you want train that to the previous sizes to 3 then that 5 and then go yoink plug in the spec book. Respectfully though, I just did the math showing how you will spend more SP under just about any circumstance for equivalent launcher sizes. For example if you take your exact scenario, and this has all been explained in my primary post. If you decide to go for cruise missiles, a missile skill that would not suffer from not maxing missile speed+flight time like 'short ranged missile systems all do' which saves SP. That put aside, you can not realistically claim anyone will seriously fly techII cruise missiles with no other skills then 'missile launcher operations' at lvl1. You may rebut saying you can fly with lvl 3 support skills. But the tracking issues inherent to missiles require you to max out on 'guided missile precision&target navigation prediction' 5x&2x multipliers, do this and you can start on cruise missiles. You need target painting skills at 4, that alone would be a 5x multiplier. Total plus the 'cruise missile launcher' skill 12+5=17x multiplier. You want to duct tape and soldered wire through target painting(lvl 3) its 13x but it would make an unfair comparison. With the same leniency towards gunnery you would have to train 'gunnery lvl5=1x, motion prediction lvl5=2x, medium hybrid lvl5=3x, small hybrid lvl5=1x, controlled bursts lvl4=0.4x' and you can tackle large blaster training. Total of 7.4+5 for large hybrids=12.4. You can't argue a minimalist skillset for BS hulls for all the obvious reasons so if you imagine every other skill at lvl 4 for each you will still come up short with missiles since they have a 21x multiplier total for support skills while you have only 1 techII weapon-type unlocked. For gunnery that number is 6 as well as support skills for 12 more not counting capital weapons. 12,4= a month 2 weeks and 1,2 or so days at optimal SP acquisition, a long range weapon system would add a 2x multiplier 14,4 against 17x for missile, furthermore for fairness sake I didn't compare to projectile weapons which are closest to missiles (capless, good damage selection), which happen to be far more SP efficient then both lasers and blasters. This COMPLETELY ignores a natural progression for a newbie missile user who would train probably light missiles first, possibly HAML. Meanwhile essentially assuming they come into the game being FULLY aware of how to use their SP in the most efficient manner. While gunnery has a natural progression of small>medium>large, a missile beginner can completely screw himself getting lost in the woods, trying out different weapon systems that are a GIVEN for gunnery. NO possible way to be more SP efficient by skipping a launcher size. Also, if you opt to try a different weapon system you start all over. With gunnery you can go to other gunnery lines. This has all been spelled out tbh. But even at this minimalist comparison there is no comparison.
Lilan Kahn The Littlest Hobos 181	Posted - 2013.12.20 20:16:00 - [26] - Quote get over it already, gunnery used to be the hardest to train for almost 10 years
Marcus Walkuris Aww yeahhh 59	Posted - 2013.12.20 20:23:00 - [27] - Quote Lilan Kahn wrote: get over it already, gunnery used to be the hardest to train for almost 10 years It has always been easier as I have demonstrated in my initial post. Would you fly large blasters with nothing but 'gunnery' at lvl1 just because you can if you could do so tomorrow? It is an absolute ridiculous argument and the fact it has never been blown out of the water in the first place is just a lack of basic mathematic understanding. As in 1+1=2. This one liner debate you are starting which I thought would be a rational comparative discussion is unbecoming.
IIshira School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 293	Posted - 2013.12.20 21:40:00 - [28] - Quote Mashie Saldana wrote: As a new Gallente player you can go pure drones all the way from frig to BS without touching gunnery or missiles. Hence the interest to see the SP investment required in comparision to guns and missiles. I cooked a dedicatd bomber alt a few years ago, it was rather painless to get into T2 torps with max support. After all the pre-requisite missile skills were only needed at base level 3. Had it been a tree similar to the current gunnery one it would have taken a few more months. The reason the missile skill tree looks like it does is because missiles were supposed to be support weapons just like drones in the original design. I did exactly this on one of my pilots. Had almost perfect drone skills but no guns. I don't think missiles are too SP intensive. The problem is now that all the tears about having to work your way up from small to large T2 guns caused CCP to remove this requirement. People said "It's not fair because missile pilots don't have to do this". What they didn't look at was missile pilots have to train an entire separate base skill to 5 in order to use both short and long range T2 launchers. This isn't the case with gunnery since one skill covers both. You don't need "Large Railguns" to 5 then train "Large Blasters" to 5 to use both. Well now that CCP did this it balanced the scale towards gunnery being easier to train. Now let's make missiles easier... You'll have people complaining "Missiles are too easy to train... It's not fair!" So what then reduce the SP needed for gunnery??
Lilan Kahn The Littlest Hobos 181	Posted - 2013.12.20 21:51:00 - [29] - Quote IIshira wrote: Mashie Saldana wrote: As a new Gallente player you can go pure drones all the way from frig to BS without touching gunnery or missiles. Hence the interest to see the SP investment required in comparision to guns and missiles. I cooked a dedicatd bomber alt a few years ago, it was rather painless to get into T2 torps with max support. After all the pre-requisite missile skills were only needed at base level 3. Had it been a tree similar to the current gunnery one it would have taken a few more months. The reason the missile skill tree looks like it does is because missiles were supposed to be support weapons just like drones in the original design. I did exactly this on one of my pilots. Had almost perfect drone skills but no guns. I don't think missiles are too SP intensive. The problem is now that all the tears about having to work your way up from small to large T2 guns caused CCP to remove this requirement. People said "It's not fair because missile pilots don't have to do this". What they didn't look at was missile pilots have to train an entire separate base skill to 5 in order to use both short and long range T2 launchers. This isn't the case with gunnery since one skill covers both. You don't need "Large Railguns" to 5 then train "Large Blasters" to 5 to use both. Well now that CCP did this it balanced the scale towards gunnery being easier to train. Now let's make missiles easier... You'll have people complaining "Missiles are too easy to train... It's not fair!" So what then reduce the SP needed for gunnery?? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5xvkAPXB9c
Marcus Walkuris Aww yeahhh 59	Posted - 2013.12.20 22:46:00 - [30] - Quote IIshira wrote: I did exactly this on one of my pilots. Had almost perfect drone skills but no guns. I don't think missiles are too SP intensive. The problem is now that all the tears about having to work your way up from small to large T2 guns caused CCP to remove this requirement. People said "It's not fair because missile pilots don't have to do this". What they didn't look at was missile pilots have to train an entire separate base skill to 5 in order to use both short and long range T2 launchers. This isn't the case with gunnery since one skill covers both. You don't need "Large Railguns" to 5 then train "Large Blasters" to 5 to use both. Well now that CCP did this it balanced the scale towards gunnery being easier to train. Now let's make missiles easier... You'll have people complaining "Missiles are too easy to train... It's not fair!" So what then reduce the SP needed for gunnery?? Well my post actually stipulated the fact that missile skills have never been "easier to train". Simply due to the overinflation of actual SP needed from the reliance on target painting and as you mentioned earlier needing 2-3 skills to level 5 to have 2-3 sorts of techII launchers in a size group. But this still leaves higher SP support skills+target painting for anything over light missiles. This leaves you with missiles only and not 2 other gun systems like gunnery. IT is all around poor design, and it should be changed. This is not a whine for ez SP, just equality and a crusade against stupidity. It is working because I don't seem to be getting any kind of pretend arguments in the light of the undeniable SP disparity. My personal preference would go out to see missile and gunnery support skills merged together. With certain support skills adding a double function while retaining certain missile skills. So rapid firing and rapid launch one skill higher training multiplier for example. Other skills like 'target navigation prediction&guided missile precision' stay the same but fall under the joined support skills. Edit: Just examples, thinking about it tracking skill merger might be better with separate rate of fire skills, any case just an idea there. I think the phoenix is like the most beautiful example of what kind of mutant red headed stepchild the missile tree has become under its current mismanagement. So I agree with your statement missile skills are not too SP intensive, except for the undeniable reliance on target painting being a form of hidden SP cost that I think needs fixed through proper modules for missile users. And I'll go as far as having never understood the incessant whining about gunnery somehow taking too much SP, and missiles are ez-mode. What they meant is missiles are for PvE where they work so you are a bear, or skilling missiles will turn you into a bear cause PvP tends to suck that way. I miss the old gunnery progression and wish that model would've came to the missile skill tree in a copy paste fashion. I see this cherry-pick nonsense as immersion breaking and view it to be bad for player retention in the long run.



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