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Zoe Alarhun
The Proactive Reappropriation Corporation
45
   |
Posted - 2011.11.04 06:49:00 -
[31] - Quote
Calapine wrote:Myrm isn't a bad ship, but not that impressive either. Triple-rep Myrm is a nice gimmick and it's rather vertisile due to it's lack of weapon bonus. But in the end it's a rather slow boat and who really is afraid of 5 medium drones, bonused or not...?
My favourite option for a fix would be to bump the bandwith up to 100m/bit. That opens the possiblity of using sentries (with rigs) or maybe a 3xheavy, 2xmed combo (bleh). It's still rather subtle and makes sure it wont endangers the Domis or Ishtars niche.
Cala
You realize people who use the myrm in pvp don't use a flight of 5 mediums ? They use 2x Heavies, 2x Mediums and 1x Light. Also the myrm is a ship that uses combined arms - Full rack of blasters (or auto's) + the above mentioned drones puts more than adequate damage to grind your way through enemy battlecruisers. And if you go dual rep (not triple) you can easily mount either ECCM or 2nd web to keep them in range.
Myrmidon is not a pure drone boat. It's a gun/drone boat. Do any of you actually fly the thing ? |
Onictus
Legendary Knights
Vorpal's Edge
17
|
Posted - 2011.11.04 08:16:00 -
[32] - Quote
Zoe Alarhun wrote:Calapine wrote:Myrm isn't a bad ship, but not that impressive either. Triple-rep Myrm is a nice gimmick and it's rather vertisile due to it's lack of weapon bonus. But in the end it's a rather slow boat and who really is afraid of 5 medium drones, bonused or not...?
My favourite option for a fix would be to bump the bandwith up to 100m/bit. That opens the possiblity of using sentries (with rigs) or maybe a 3xheavy, 2xmed combo (bleh). It's still rather subtle and makes sure it wont endangers the Domis or Ishtars niche.
Cala You realize people who use the myrm in pvp don't use a flight of 5 mediums ? They use 2x Heavies, 2x Mediums and 1x Light. Also the myrm is a ship that uses combined arms - Full rack of blasters (or auto's) + the above mentioned drones puts more than adequate damage to grind your way through enemy battlecruisers. And if you go dual rep (not triple) you can easily mount either ECCM or 2nd web to keep them in range. Myrmidon is not a pure drone boat. It's a gun/drone boat. Do any of you actually fly the thing ?
All assuming that you find a couple morons that are slower than the myrm, a plated myrm goes something like 740m/s with good nav skills and and a 1600mm plate, active myrms top out just under 1000m/s.
Oh and active myrms can't tank more than two BCs...ever
The reason people fit AC's is because they at least can shoot at something out towards point range, otherwise you are have the standard 10km for medium neutrons that no pilot will go into anyway because they know they are going to get webbed and scrammed.
So yeah, it'll grind as you put it through a battlecruiser, if they are dumb enough to get caught, otherwise they are sitting out at the edge of point range blasting your face in while you are busy manual sticking and praying that they were dumb enough to set orbit so you might be able to catch them long enough to get a web on them.
Unless you are talkiing gang work, where you a single plated myrm is basically heavy tackle so the ceptors get a break....also a job that an armor cane does better.
I may add that I fly both the Myrm and the cane ...frequently.
Emily Poast wrote:
And anyway, shield tanking a gallente boat is dirty and wrong.
Nano-hype with a rack of Neutrons is so so right when the occasion calls for it. |
Zoe Alarhun
The Proactive Reappropriation Corporation
45
|
Posted - 2011.11.04 09:14:00 -
[33] - Quote
Your statement that active myrms can't tank more than 2BC's is false - Prometheus has shown it in his videos' and there are vids on youtube of people doing the same. Overheated armor reps x 3 with Exile (? bad with names) booster = insane repping power. Besides saying it can't take 2 battlecruisers isn hardly a con when most shield fit harbs/hurricanes can't either. Even a plated they often fall before killing 2 battlecruisers as well. So how does this make the myrm worse?
Also you don't always need the speed - fights where you land on your people at the gate you can web/scram them and stay ontop of them. It's not always a case of landing on someone and then having them try to kite you. The fact of the matter is that people are dumb enough to get caught and sometimes the myrm pulsing it's overheated MWD gets you into pew pew range. You simply have to look at kilmails and fits posted to see the proof.
Also the myrm has pretty decent damage projection because of it's drones. |
Onictus
Legendary Knights
Vorpal's Edge
17
|
Posted - 2011.11.04 10:05:00 -
[34] - Quote
Zoe Alarhun wrote:Your statement that active myrms can't tank more than 2BC's is false - Prometheus has shown it in his videos' and there are vids on youtube of people doing the same. Overheated armor reps x 3 with Exile (? bad with names) booster = insane repping power. Besides saying it can't take 2 battlecruisers isn hardly a con when most shield fit harbs/hurricanes can't either. Even a plated they often fall before killing 2 battlecruisers as well. So how does this make the myrm worse?
So your suggesting that you have to fly around millions in drugs in your head for a hull to work?
A shield harb or cane DOESN'T HAVE TO FIGHT IN SCRAM RANGE.....why is this hard? Plate is a gang fit, you BETTER have back up because you can't outrun your smell.
Zoe Alarhun wrote:Y
Also you don't always need the speed - fights where you land on your people at the gate you can web/scram them and stay ontop of them. It's not always a case of landing on someone and then having them try to kite you. The fact of the matter is that people are dumb enough to get caught and sometimes the myrm pulsing it's overheated MWD gets you into pew pew range. You simply have to look at kilmails and fits posted to see the proof.
Also the myrm has pretty decent damage projection because of it's drones.
LOL Drone damage projection, with what? Medium drone? or the a 2-2-1 heavy/medium/light set even than best case you are doing 350dps at 20km with 425mm and waiting 20seconds for your heavies to get the hell out there. If your target isn't a moron just just pops the drones with his.
Why must the myrm rely on its target being.........bad? Personally given the choice I just leave the ******* myrm(s) yes pluaral I have at least 6 of them because the hurricane can fill pretty much all of the same rolls.
...and I get to determine if I'm going to fight or run....because I don't have to rely on the other target making a mistake or being new to win toe to toe.
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Sylar Reuwich
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
0
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Posted - 2011.11.04 10:42:00 -
[35] - Quote
Onictus you realise a shield Myrm boasts more DPS and EHP than a shield cane right? Yeah the Cane is more agile but the Myrm also has a web. |
Onictus
Legendary Knights
Vorpal's Edge
17
|
Posted - 2011.11.04 10:52:00 -
[36] - Quote
Sylar Reuwich wrote:Onictus you realise a shield Myrm boasts more DPS and EHP than a shield cane right? Yeah the Cane is more agile but the Myrm also has a web.
I do.
I if you are fitting web and scam than most of the increase is on hull, which currently I prefer not to try to use as a secondary tank level. Also most of that DPS advantage is drones that can't keep up with a nano-cane at full speed, so its hit or miss.
I have equal skills shield and a armor tanking, but I have had pretty bad luck with shield tanking myrms with anything but 720mm Arties. Its been a minute since I fit a shieldy one to brawl, I should give that another go I guess, pretty sure that I have a couple unfit hulls floating around. |
Zoe Alarhun
The Proactive Reappropriation Corporation
46
|
Posted - 2011.11.04 11:56:00 -
[37] - Quote
I didn't say you need drugs for the hull to work - I said you can use drugs to allow you to tank up to 2-3 Bc's something I'm pretty sure the Cane/harb can't do. Myrm has plenty of mids - can fit scram + long point if you really want.
Also how much dps are you REALLY doing at 20Km with a cane ? At 20km you are at the edge of your maximum range with Fusion + 2 Tracking enhancers and with barrage you also deep into your second fall off so please don't tell me the Myrms damage projection at that range is crap.
I didn't say rely on the target being bad - I said not everyone is a perfect leet pvp warrior as they claim. Everyone makes mistakes and the myrm has many strengths all of it's own it can capitalize on. |
Onictus
Legendary Knights
Vorpal's Edge
17
|
Posted - 2011.11.04 12:00:00 -
[38] - Quote
Zoe Alarhun wrote:I didn't say you need drugs for the hull to work - I said you can use drugs to allow you to tank up to 2-3 Bc's something I'm pretty sure the Cane/harb can't do. Myrm has plenty of mids - can fit scram + long point if you really want.
Also how much dps are you REALLY doing at 20Km with a cane ? At 20km you are at the edge of your maximum range with Fusion + 2 Tracking enhancers and with barrage you also deep into your second fall off so please don't tell me the Myrms damage projection at that range is crap.
I didn't say rely on the target being bad - I said not everyone is a perfect leet pvp warrior as they claim. Everyone makes mistakes and the myrm has many strengths all of it's own it can capitalize on.
At 20km with a 425mm nano-cane with heavy HMLs and DPS drones over 400dps with a bit of manual flying no heat.
Not to mention that you wouldn't be using fusion for that, that is barrage range. ....maybe even hail once they do the ammo boost.
With fusion something like 250, on a normal nano-with dual neuts vice launchers. (not exactly cookie cutter). |
Zoe Alarhun
The Proactive Reappropriation Corporation
46
|
Posted - 2011.11.04 12:54:00 -
[39] - Quote
Actually it's closer 340ish taking into account fall off, tracking, missile explosion velocity. So in actual fact they are almost the same. Anyways we are looking at it from different perspectives - I am looking at it from a solo pilot view and you are looking at it from a gang view since the last solo kill you made is about 8 months ago. For solo having a stiff tank that can stand up to people when backup lands is fantastic. ECCM (which a dual rep myrm can happily fit) is fantastic. |
Sable Schroedinger
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.04 13:23:00 -
[40] - Quote
The main problem with active reps over passive is the point at which they collapse.
Yes a Harbi, Drake etc struggles to tank multiple ships and live, and thats OK. However, with an active tank you have a DPS threshold that if breached you might as well not be there. In a sense, buffer tanked ships have the same, but the difference is massive.
An active Myrm can tank most BCs 1v1 for as long as it has cap boosters.
2v1 and it will need drugs and overheat etc. (and even then I'm not totally convinced tbh) but since this decreases the cycle time of the reppers it means the cap boosters last much shorter periods and therefore, whilst you may on paper tank the DPS of 2 BC you will run out of cap boosters if they have good/reasonable tanks before you can take them out and so fold. Without drugs and overheating, the armour belt of the Myrm will fold before the reppers can cycle. So whilst you may get a rep in just as you're hitting structure your structure will be gone before the second cycle.
Active rep myrms have the following problems.
Like with most Gallente ships, most of its hitpoints are in its hull. So its repping in one of its lower hit point belts and if the DPS can get through that armour belt in less time that it takes for a repper to cycle, your tank will fold before you get to use it.
Since the hit point boost, reppers have to run for much longer in order to break even, and therefore buffers are more appealing outside of extremely limited situations (pretty much 1v1's, however they may occur).
Cap usuage of active reps is such that they only really work with cap boosters, and since cap boosters take up so much cargo space, its hard to impossible (dependent on ship) to pack enough to run reppers for long enough to break even with the aforementioned buffer. |
Onictus
Legendary Knights
Vorpal's Edge
17
|
Posted - 2011.11.04 13:33:00 -
[41] - Quote
Zoe Alarhun wrote:Actually it's closer 340ish taking into account fall off, tracking, missile explosion velocity. So in actual fact they are almost the same. Anyways we are looking at it from different perspectives - I am looking at it from a solo pilot view and you are looking at it from a gang view since the last solo kill you made is about 8 months ago. For solo having a stiff tank that can stand up to people when backup lands is fantastic. ECCM (which a dual rep myrm can happily fit) is fantastic.
Agreed, hence not many solo kills because generally I get outrun...or plain out ganked. There are a number of those in there as well, but by and large you are right I'm mostly a small gang pilot. hence my aversion to active repping. It simply doesn't work well enough to eat any signifigant alpha, when you know you are warping into 6-7 BCs and that you are likely to be fairly high on the primary tree.
For reference shooting, myself with my nano-cane against my dual rep (single TE) myrm the cane does twice the damage turret for turret, the equalizer being drones (the one case where mediums are warranted) since 5 valks evens the DPS race, and split sizes grouping is a loss because because the cane has the ability to outrun the ogres.
...also assuming that its not an armor cane that is just going to come in and neut you to death.
i'm not at work now and have access to simulation finally...always handy when theory crafting. There are simply to many stats to remember all of them off the top of your head. |
Zoe Alarhun
The Proactive Reappropriation Corporation
46
|
Posted - 2011.11.04 13:53:00 -
[42] - Quote
I prefer blaster Myrm to be honest with you - Blaster myrm with her drones does delicious om nom nom damage. Eccm help **** off annoying ECM when you hitting 50+ sensor strength. Dual web is also a nice alternative for hunting smaller game. In all the Brutix might need a *slight* boost but the myrm is fine - especially now that they are decreasing the fitting requirements and one will be able to fit a full rack of ions instead of the traditional ion + electron combination.
Mind you dual rep brutix is still pretty brutal though - I was rather surprised at how good seeing as prevailing forum wisdom is "brutix is bad!". |
Onictus
Legendary Knights
Vorpal's Edge
17
|
Posted - 2011.11.04 13:56:00 -
[43] - Quote
Zoe Alarhun wrote:I prefer blaster Myrm to be honest with you - Blaster myrm with her drones does delicious om nom nom damage. Eccm help **** off annoying ECM when you hitting 50+ sensor strength. Dual web is also a nice alternative for hunting smaller game. In all the Brutix might need a *slight* boost but the myrm is fine - especially now that they are decreasing the fitting requirements and one will be able to fit a full rack of ions instead of the traditional ion + electron combination.
Mind you dual rep brutix is still pretty brutal though - I was rather surprised at how good seeing as prevailing forum wisdom is "brutix is bad!".
Fly Brutix's fairly frequently, its definitely FUUUUUU damage if you can get in range. |
Sable Schroedinger
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
0
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Posted - 2011.11.04 15:52:00 -
[44] - Quote
used to fly the brutix many years ago but abandoned it as the tank was too thin for my liking. If they changed the active rep bonus to an armour hit point one, then I'd probably look at it again. |
Sydney Nelson
Nelson Universal Aerospace
11
|
Posted - 2011.11.04 17:26:00 -
[45] - Quote
The problem Brutix has is speed.
You have the shortest-range weapon combined with an armor tanked brick.
How anyone gets into range (without getting lucky) is beyond me.
With a boost to base-speed or, as someone else recomended, a bonus to MWD/AB boost, some of our blaster-boats might actually work.
With blasters you have to get into range before you're out-of cap and armor. Right-now blaster boats can't do this (at least not without getting a lucky warp-in). Winmatar pilots just laugh thier asses-off blasting-away with ACs, kitting the sh!t out of you.
With more speed and the buff to rail damage coming, who knows? We might even see rail-kiting as a viable strategy for some of these Gallente ships. Can you imagine the kiting slug-fest between a fast Rail-Brutix and a Cane? The Brutix could maintain range until the cap runs-out, then it's anybody's guess.
As of right-now I think nano/od/shield fits are the most viable for Brutix, Hype, etc.
If CCP gave them more base-speed, or a bonus to MWD/AB boost, then they would have enough speed without nanos, and have the lows left-ever to fit an active tank.
If you want to be ballzy and go with very little tank, you could fit nanos/od/speed-rigs and have one of the fastest ships around.
I REALLY like the idea of giving a bonus for MWD boost. I would be like having a turbo-charger. You're not naturally the fastest ships, but when you need to get in-range, you can burn a bunch of cap and actually GET THERE!
IMO this is the best fix for hybrid boats proposed yet. |
Emily Poast
The Whipping Post
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.04 18:39:00 -
[46] - Quote
Yes, they just need to make armor tanking (active or buffer) more viable for blasterships. Removing the speed/mass penalties for rigs and plates would be a good start. |
Hertz Sabezan
FLIC OU NINJA
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.04 19:21:00 -
[47] - Quote
Gallente are getting buffs this winter. Asking for a brutix buff is too much, every tier 1 BC are sorta useless, or at least overshadowed by their tier 2 counterparts. If you buff the brutix to make it 'viable', buff the Ferox, Prophecy and Cyclone; which are probably less common in space than the brutix. It has at least its niche, i.e. one of the best ship to suicide gank hulks. |
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