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Rells
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Posted - 2006.02.10 18:04:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Rells on 10/02/2006 18:04:32
One of the thing that irritates many shoppers is prices that are so high that they leave you with the feeling of being violated. If you are like me, you might not mind paying 30% or even 100% above the build cost for some powerful items but there are some things in the game that are marked up 1000% above cost (cap 2s for example). When CCP says "BPO Lottery" they werent kidding! Those that win these choice BPOS have market control with a quasi monopoly. They get billions not for hard work or genius play but just for being stupidly lucky. Its like the real world economy beign run by only Lottery winners.
At the same time this has another effect. Since there are so few people with these BPOs there is little market for the things that these BPOs consume in the making. This renders POS owners to the point where they scratch out a desperate living if at all. The megopolies that have the BPOs can field all of their resources and dont need help from anyone else, leaving a thin market for moon products.
So what can be done about this without making Tech 2 as common as tech 1? The first thing is to seed those BPOs to the market. Now stop reaching for that reply button and hear me out. If you could save up and buy one of these BPOs as some large amount of money you could start up your own supply business. So what is to keep the market from becomming as saturated as the Tech 1 market? Simple, change the rarity on the component minerals and materials.
Each tech 2 item is controlled by the number of BPOs in the game and CCP monitors this. However it is very transient and it could be that one guy with 3 accounts owns all three BPOs. If he goes on vacation for a month the market price rockets. What is more, those that can afford the price simply cant find the items to buy; there is no way another producer can step in and fill the gap with higher priced items.
Controlling the price by controlling the rarity of the minerals and materials would be far more subtle and easily adjustible. You could slightly bump down the yield from moon harvesting 10% and see a 10% rise in the price of items made from that material. Other materials could go through even more radical reductions in yield. If you want to make an item rare, drop a component mineral to rarity.
What would this do to the market? Well instead of being able to do everything themselves, these mega corps would be much more compelled to buy materials off the market as they couldnt possibly field enough POSes to get all of that rare material they need. What is more, the profession of exploration and survey would be introduced with intrepid pilots selling off moon survey results of moons found to contain needed materials. The market of materials would be revived and the POS market with it.
To make the deal even sweeter I would change the T1 recipies to include small amounts of materials for each recipe. Instead of the whole economy balancing on overmined minerals, it would balance on player produced materials. This would further restore the T1 market to the point that producing would actually become compeditive agian rather than a flooded market. Furthermore, it would create much more demand for materials and massively diversify the marketplace. People would be compelled to trade with others as getting it all wouldnt be possible alone.
Now I know some people will fight with me over the fact that they will loose their trillion isk monopoly and I have to say I dont much care. They have had their run, made their trillions and now its time to do what is right for the game population at large.
The tools are all there. All it requires is some seeding and tooling with recipies and material rarity and the market of eve would get a whole new life with new professions and new opportnities for rich and poor alike.
Comments welcome, Debate welcome, Flames can be left outside please.
-- Rells
◄ Replacing Local with a practical alternative.
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Abbey Smallwood
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Posted - 2006.02.10 18:20:00 -
[2]
What you are, in short, suggesting is the t2 market becoming virtually identical to the t1 market, except that it requires some new mins?
You wasted 4 seconds reading this post and you'll never get those back. |
Berrik Radhok
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Posted - 2006.02.10 18:23:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Abbey Smallwood
What you are, in short, suggesting is the t2 market becoming virtually identical to the t1 market, except that it requires some new mins?
Would that really be so bad? Last I checked there are plenty of T1 producers that eke out a decent enough living.
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Baldour Ngarr
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Posted - 2006.02.10 18:23:00 -
[4]
I think most people (except the ones making billions for producing dirt-cheap items) would agree that more T2 blueprints need to be released. But there won't be much support for making them freely available on the market, at whatever cost.
Still, 8 cap recharger II bpo's when there were ~25,000 subscribers is one thing. The same 8 when there's 100,000 subscribers, and guess what? The price quadrupled.
Get some more blueprints in the game, for the love of Mike.
________________________________________________
"I tried strip mining, but I lost, and it's cold flying around in space naked." |
Alexis DeTocqueville
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Posted - 2006.02.10 18:27:00 -
[5]
The new devblog addresses this issue, I think.
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.02.10 18:29:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Berrik Radhok
Originally by: Abbey Smallwood
What you are, in short, suggesting is the t2 market becoming virtually identical to the t1 market, except that it requires some new mins?
Would that really be so bad? Last I checked there are plenty of T1 producers that eke out a decent enough living.
And this justifies screwing over all the T2 producers?
Some of them actually worked for their ISK, mind you. If you had 5 billion ISK that you worked months to earn, would you like it if CCP suddenly stole it from you? No, you'd quit the game and post a whine thread about it.
Come on people, stop posting these threads over and over. Tech 2 as a whole is fine. Perhaps we need more HAC and cap II BPOs.
--
Proud member of the [23].
The Tachikomas are DEAD! Click sig for video.
<3 Tachikomas -Eldo
But I'm the cutest of them all, and I'm not even a blue robot - Wrangler
I have seen you. You cannot deny it anymore - Vanamonde
You used to be one of the twenty three, now you are a part of me - Cortes
Immy > You All - Imaran
Tachikomas > All ~kieron |
Abbey Smallwood
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Posted - 2006.02.10 18:31:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Abbey Smallwood on 10/02/2006 18:33:55
Release them in events!. Ones which you have to do some detective work to even find out about. So as soon as you saw some green in local, you start following. When they log, you check whoever was in local, where they docked etc, who they were docked with, and all manner of other puzzle. The events team shouldn't bother attacking alliances with capitals, other alliances can, and will do that.
You wasted 4 seconds reading this post and you'll never get those back. |
Rells
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Posted - 2006.02.10 18:56:00 -
[8]
I love how people read the first paragraph and then think they are ready to reply. *sigh*
-- Rells
◄ Replacing Local with a practical alternative.
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Neon Genesis
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Posted - 2006.02.10 19:04:00 -
[9]
It's not a crisis, it's just forum whining, and that won't go awa no matter how much we cater to you.
There, i just contributed nothing to your thread |
Iberi
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Posted - 2006.02.10 19:06:00 -
[10]
Heh, I do not care about BPO owners future(if CCP will close BPO at all) and CCP does not care rather. Few accounts will be terminated? Big deal! Eve will loose nothing such "exodus".
I think, that BPO lottery must be just stopped and repplaced with something more viable and more predictable.
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.02.10 19:11:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Iberi
Heh, I do not care about BPO owners future(if CCP will close BPO at all) and CCP does not care rather. Few accounts will be terminated? Big deal! Eve will loose nothing such "exodus".
Heh, I do not care about miners future (if CCP will close asteroids at all) and CCP does not care rather. Few accounts will be terminated? Big deal! Eve will loose nothing such "exodus".
--
Proud member of the [23].
The Tachikomas are DEAD! Click sig for video.
<3 Tachikomas -Eldo
But I'm the cutest of them all, and I'm not even a blue robot - Wrangler
I have seen you. You cannot deny it anymore - Vanamonde
You used to be one of the twenty three, now you are a part of me - Cortes
Immy > You All - Imaran
Tachikomas > All ~kieron |
Gort
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Posted - 2006.02.10 19:14:00 -
[12]
Let's just give all the good BPOs to every player. Then they can just make the stuff for themselves "for free" or "at cost" or whatever sounds nice.
End of problem.
Actually, the number of "fixes" proposed is dizzying. I don't think the market can be as closely managed (to have just the prices desired) as people think.
Regards,
Gort
Makeup artist for the dead |
Alexis DeTocqueville
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Posted - 2006.02.10 19:31:00 -
[13]
The issue might have more good ideas if it wasn't always cluttered with the indignant refrain of hyperbole from those who might stand to lose the ridiculous profit margins they're making.
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.02.10 19:40:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 10/02/2006 19:40:46
Originally by: Alexis DeTocqueville
The issue might have more good ideas if it wasn't always cluttered with the indignant refrain of hyperbole from those who might stand to lose the ridiculous profit margins they're making.
So doubling ones money in a year is a "ridiculous margin"?
Most BPOs don't even do that.
P.S. You've been trolling with that alt all day. When you get banned, remember, it will carry over to your main 
--
Proud member of the [23].
The Tachikomas are DEAD! Click sig for video.
<3 Tachikomas -Eldo
But I'm the cutest of them all, and I'm not even a blue robot - Wrangler
I have seen you. You cannot deny it anymore - Vanamonde
You used to be one of the twenty three, now you are a part of me - Cortes
Immy > You All - Imaran
Tachikomas > All ~kieron |
Taran Blake
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Posted - 2006.02.10 19:56:00 -
[15]
The only way I can see to stop the price gouging of T2 items is to introduce a mechanism where a producer can reverse engineer the BPO from a module.
To make it fair, you would need to make the process time and resources intensive.
For example, to upgrade a Cruise Missile Launcher 1 BPO to a Cruise Missile Launcher II you would need to upgrade the BPO through the intermediate grades of T1 Named units, ie acquire a Malkuth Cruise Launcher and reverse engineer the original BPO to that stage, and then repeat the process with the Limos, XT-9000 and Arbalest.
The higher the level of BPO upgrade would involve some sort of modifier to slow down the research process, either time or resources needed to progress to the next level of BPO.
It would break the monopolies of the cartels without the sudden invalidation of those people lucky enough to get the Lottery distributed T2 BPO's. They would get their initial enormous profits, but if the item is that useful, eventually other producers would research that item and eventually bring the prices down to a saner level.
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.02.10 19:57:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Taran Blake
The only way I can see to stop the price gouging of T2 items is to introduce a mechanism where a producer can reverse engineer the BPO from a module.
To make it fair, you would need to make the process time and resources intensive.
For example, to upgrade a Cruise Missile Launcher 1 BPO to a Cruise Missile Launcher II you would need to upgrade the BPO through the intermediate grades of T1 Named units, ie acquire a Malkuth Cruise Launcher and reverse engineer the original BPO to that stage, and then repeat the process with the Limos, XT-9000 and Arbalest.
The higher the level of BPO upgrade would involve some sort of modifier to slow down the research process, either time or resources needed to progress to the next level of BPO.
It would break the monopolies of the cartels without the sudden invalidation of those people lucky enough to get the Lottery distributed T2 BPO's. They would get their initial enormous profits, but if the item is that useful, eventually other producers would research that item and eventually bring the prices down to a saner level.
There are only two T2 cartels in EVE.
Two cartels are not a reason to change the system to screw over everyone else.
--
Proud member of the [23].
The Tachikomas are DEAD! Click sig for video.
<3 Tachikomas -Eldo
But I'm the cutest of them all, and I'm not even a blue robot - Wrangler
I have seen you. You cannot deny it anymore - Vanamonde
You used to be one of the twenty three, now you are a part of me - Cortes
Immy > You All - Imaran
Tachikomas > All ~kieron |
Taran Blake
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Posted - 2006.02.10 20:07:00 -
[17]
20 T2 BPO's distributed over 100,000+ registered players is reason enough.
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HippoKing
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Posted - 2006.02.10 20:07:00 -
[18]
the market is OK atm IMO, i can buy what i need for what its worth to me.
if i don't think its worth the asking price, i don't buy
sigs of the 23/24/25 hijack just as well -eris
yarrrr, i shall retake my sig -HippoKing
Not a chance, our 1337 sig haXx0r sk1llz are too powerful! - Wrangler
Ho-Ho-Hooooooo, Merry Saturday!11 - Immy
Yo ho ho and a bottle of BReeEEEEeee.... - Jacques ARRRRRRchambault |
Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.02.10 20:14:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Taran Blake
20 T2 BPO's distributed over 100,000+ registered players is reason enough.
20?
Maybe more like 15000?
--
Proud member of the [23].
The Tachikomas are DEAD! Click sig for video.
<3 Tachikomas -Eldo
But I'm the cutest of them all, and I'm not even a blue robot - Wrangler
I have seen you. You cannot deny it anymore - Vanamonde
You used to be one of the twenty three, now you are a part of me - Cortes
Immy > You All - Imaran
Tachikomas > All ~kieron |
Baldour Ngarr
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Posted - 2006.02.10 20:22:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Taran Blake
20 T2 BPO's distributed over 100,000+ registered players is reason enough.
20?
Maybe more like 15000?
I presume he means twenty of a specific blueprint.
That or he's just dumb. Which, given the usual content of these boards, is of course a strong possibility 
________________________________________________
"I tried strip mining, but I lost, and it's cold flying around in space naked." |
The Ratfink
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Posted - 2006.02.10 20:26:00 -
[21]
Edited by: The Ratfink on 10/02/2006 20:26:17
The Enslaver[/b] is willing to donate his Cap II Recharger BPO and Zealot BPO to British Space Corperation for a very reasonable price to help this supply demand problem anyone else intrested convo him in game
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Shaelin Corpius
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Posted - 2006.02.10 20:27:00 -
[22]
As big as the playerbase is in eve. The T2 BPO lottery and the number of orginial bps that are being released is silly. 8 bpos for 100,000 accounts. Thats 0.008% of the population has the ability to produce an item/ship that over %50 of the population uses. Thats a very poor economic model. Tech 2 has been out for a while now, and needs to start being produce much more heavily. Spread the wealth a bit. Unless you own a T2 bpo, running posses is almost silly.
This is why people are creating monopolies with the bpos. Hence why the prices have skyrocketed.
The RnD needs to change to Bpcs, and more of them released quicker, like you get offers for your regular agents.
The game cannot progress efficiently without a complete change on how research agents work.
Tech 3 is a just a dream until t2 gets a little luvvin.
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Taran Blake
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Posted - 2006.02.10 20:41:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Baldour Ngarr
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Taran Blake
20 T2 BPO's distributed over 100,000+ registered players is reason enough.
20?
Maybe more like 15000?
I presume he means twenty of a specific blueprint.
That or he's just dumb. Which, given the usual content of these boards, is of course a strong possibility
20 copies of a specific T2 BPO in circulation is what I meant. I don't spend enough time forum whoring to know the exact number of BPO's per T2 item that was release. If it's 8 copies then its even worse than I had thought.
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.02.10 20:44:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Taran Blake
Originally by: Baldour Ngarr
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Taran Blake
20 T2 BPO's distributed over 100,000+ registered players is reason enough.
20?
Maybe more like 15000?
I presume he means twenty of a specific blueprint.
That or he's just dumb. Which, given the usual content of these boards, is of course a strong possibility
20 copies of a specific T2 BPO in circulation is what I meant. I don't spend enough time forum whoring to know the exact number of BPO's per T2 item that was release. If it's 8 copies then its even worse than I had thought.
A few old fast-building items have just 8.
Most have 20 or more.
I can't even fill my hand with a list of T2 items that have supply issues. Imp cloak II, HACs, command ships, and cap IIs... that's it. The rest are just fine.
--
Proud member of the [23].
The Tachikomas are DEAD! Click sig for video.
<3 Tachikomas -Eldo
But I'm the cutest of them all, and I'm not even a blue robot - Wrangler
I have seen you. You cannot deny it anymore - Vanamonde
You used to be one of the twenty three, now you are a part of me - Cortes
Immy > You All - Imaran
Tachikomas > All ~kieron |
Sadayiel
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Posted - 2006.02.10 20:51:00 -
[25]
READ DEV BLOG easy fast and there explain how they plan to implement a way to self research by yourself some bpc tech 2 without the need of the original bpo.
This will seed the market with a few ammount more of tech 2 items without a chance to perma saturate market with them.
Suicide it's man way to tell God.
You can't fire me so I quit |
Taran Blake
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Posted - 2006.02.10 20:51:00 -
[26]
T2 is overpriced for what it does most of the time, and I generally only use it in specific instances where there isn't a T1 equivalent, for Covert Ops and Interceptors.
I can afford the stuff with no problems, but their current cost is in no way in line with their relatively small performance bonuses.
The other problem is that a major percentage of the T2 BPO's are in the hands of 0.0 Alliances, which reserves their production for members or close allies only, so the actual pool of T2 items is much smaller than base numbers suggest.
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.02.10 20:54:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Taran Blake
T2 is overpriced for what it does most of the time, and I generally only use it in specific instances where there isn't a T1 equivalent, for Covert Ops and Interceptor
I can afford the stuff with no problems, but their current cost is in no way in line with their relatively small performance bonuses.
The other problem is that a major percentage of the T2 BPO's are in the hands of 0.0 Alliances, which reserves their production for members or close allies only, so the actual pool of T2 items is much smaller than base numbers suggest.
So you can't afford 300k for a target painter II? Or 1m for a multispec II? Or 400k for a quad light beam II? Or 1m for a medium beam II? Or 600k for a remote sensor damp II?
Come on. Those are damn reasonable IMO.
--
Proud member of the [23].
The Tachikomas are DEAD! Click sig for video.
<3 Tachikomas -Eldo
But I'm the cutest of them all, and I'm not even a blue robot - Wrangler
I have seen you. You cannot deny it anymore - Vanamonde
You used to be one of the twenty three, now you are a part of me - Cortes
Immy > You All - Imaran
Tachikomas > All ~kieron |
Rells
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Posted - 2006.02.10 20:58:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Berrik Radhok
Originally by: Abbey Smallwood
What you are, in short, suggesting is the t2 market becoming virtually identical to the t1 market, except that it requires some new mins?
Would that really be so bad? Last I checked there are plenty of T1 producers that eke out a decent enough living.
And this justifies screwing over all the T2 producers?
Some of them actually worked for their ISK, mind you. If you had 5 billion ISK that you worked months to earn, would you like it if CCP suddenly stole it from you? No, you'd quit the game and post a whine thread about it.
Come on people, stop posting these threads over and over. Tech 2 as a whole is fine. Perhaps we need more HAC and cap II BPOs.
Do I smell a T2 producer with a 1000% markup license to print isk? There will be those people in he thread. Look for the most unreasonable folk.
-- Rells
◄ Replacing Local with a practical alternative.
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Taran Blake
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Posted - 2006.02.10 20:59:00 -
[29]
I fly Caldari, and I am not gonna spend 10 mil a pop on a Ballistic Control System II for a throwaway ship when it barely gives me 3% increase over the basic T1 version.
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Snake Jankins
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Posted - 2006.02.10 21:00:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Snake Jankins on 10/02/2006 21:00:43
Originally by: Baldour Ngarr
I think most people (except the ones making billions for producing dirt-cheap items) would agree that more T2 blueprints need to be released. But there won't be much support for making them freely available on the market, at whatever cost.
I fully agree to this. Economic freedom is one thing, but balance is also important. If things develop in a direction that was never intended and that's bad for the game, then there need to be some corrections. Ok, it's up to the devs to decide, if we are already at this point.
Well, changes of the R&D system are already in work, so I think we (the t2 customers) can relax a bit.
___________
'Only ships can be assembled, this is a Frigate.' |
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