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What is better than the CNR at level 4 sansha and blood raider missions?

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Fragem666 Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2013.11.08 14:26:00 - [1] - Quote My main is currently in a micro jump drive CNR and is skilling to make it more effective. Question I have is there an upgrade? I'm looking at either the NIghtmare or Paladin. I'm really tired of missiles and want pretty lasers to shoot.
stoicfaux 3326	Posted - 2013.11.08 14:35:00 - [2] - Quote Paladin come Rubicon. It's just silly. Pulse: 871 DPS in Bastion mode with a range of 95km + 12km. Yes, that's 95km optimal with pulse lasers. Tank is 400+ in Bastion mode with a MAR II. 73% to 79% resists across the board. Yes, I said MAR II. The MAR and the lasers have 10 minutes of cap. You can make it effectively cap stable if you drop the Burst Aerator for a slight loss in DPS. [Rubicon Paladin, New Setup 1] Heat Sink II Imperial Navy Heat Sink Imperial Navy Heat Sink Imperial Navy Heat Sink Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Medium Armor Repairer II Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Large Micro Jump Drive 100MN Microwarpdrive II Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L Small Tractor Beam II Small Tractor Beam II Small Tractor Beam II Bastion Module I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Energy Burst Aerator II Salvage Drone I x5 Hobgoblin II x10 tl;dr You would have to try really, really, really hard to screw up a Rubicon Paladin. OTOH, a Dominix can get 800 thermal DPS with 100km optimal as well.
Fragem666 Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2013.11.08 14:45:00 - [3] - Quote Excuse me if I'm wrong wouldn't this make suiciding a paladin much easier since they can't move.
Nolen Cadmar Nexus Ore Technologies and Excavations Surely You're Joking 13	Posted - 2013.11.08 14:54:00 - [4] - Quote While running missions in a gunboat, you probably don't move anyways.
stoicfaux 3326	Posted - 2013.11.08 15:21:00 - [5] - Quote Fragem666 wrote: Excuse me if I'm wrong wouldn't this make suiciding a paladin much easier since they can't move. Yes. And no. Bastion mode adds 30% to hull resists as well. You're looking at 74k ehp against void ammo. Plus, you don't need to bling out a Paladin to get ridiculous numbers so is it profitable to suicide gank a paladin? Speaking of bling, if you're willing to pop an extra 110M isk, you can swap the MARII for a Corpum C-Type MAR (more tank) and drop one of the EANMs for a DCII (8m45s of cap.) For 95k ehp against void...
Sexy Cakes Have A Seat 495	Posted - 2013.11.08 15:46:00 - [6] - Quote Nightmare will still do more DPS than a Paladin.
Arcosian Arco's Advanced Industries 127	Posted - 2013.11.08 15:51:00 - [7] - Quote Just be aware that if you DC while in bastion your ship will NOT warp off. CCP still hasn't said if this is intended or not so completely relying on bastion for one's tank is in my opinion going to result in the loss of a ship sooner or later.
stoicfaux 3326	Posted - 2013.11.08 16:00:00 - [8] - Quote Sexy Cakes wrote: Nightmare will still do more DPS than a Paladin. Only if you include sentry drones. OTOH, the tach Paladin has a noticeable range advantage (70km optimal versus 45km), but the Nightmare has a tracking advantage. So, meh.
Dorororo Keroro Platoon 11	Posted - 2013.11.08 16:15:00 - [9] - Quote stoicfaux wrote: Paladin come Rubicon. It's just silly. Pulse: 871 DPS in Bastion mode with a range of 95km + 12km. Yes, that's 95km optimal with pulse lasers. Tank is 400+ in Bastion mode with a MAR II. 73% to 79% resists across the board. Yes, I said MAR II. The MAR and the lasers have 10 minutes of cap. You can make it effectively cap stable if you drop the Burst Aerator for a slight loss in DPS. [Rubicon Paladin, New Setup 1] Heat Sink II Imperial Navy Heat Sink Imperial Navy Heat Sink Imperial Navy Heat Sink Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Medium Armor Repairer II Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Large Micro Jump Drive 100MN Microwarpdrive II Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L Small Tractor Beam II Small Tractor Beam II Small Tractor Beam II Bastion Module I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Energy Burst Aerator II Salvage Drone I x5 Hobgoblin II x10 tl;dr You would have to try really, really, really hard to screw up a Rubicon Paladin. OTOH, a Dominix can get 800 thermal DPS with 100km optimal as well. You seem to keep repeating this bad idea of putting a MARII on a Paladin in multiple threads. 400 dps tank, while stationary, is not going to be enough for some missions unless you always waste time MJDing away to 100+km. It also has the down side of complete toilet paper tank outside of Bastion, meaning you can never ever come out of Bastion while under fire. There is no reason not to put a LAR II on it, and using a MAR II also completely wastes the 100% bonus from Bastion in terms of armor/cap. Sacrificing tank for DPS is a good idea, sacrificing tank for no additional benefit is pointless.
Nolen Cadmar Nexus Ore Technologies and Excavations Surely You're Joking 13	Posted - 2013.11.08 16:39:00 - [10] - Quote Dorororo wrote: You seem to keep repeating this bad idea of putting a MARII on a Paladin in multiple threads. 400 dps tank, while stationary, is not going to be enough for some missions unless you always waste time MJDing away to 100+km. It also has the down side of complete toilet paper tank outside of Bastion, meaning you can never ever come out of Bastion while under fire. There is no reason not to put a LAR II on it, and using a MAR II also completely wastes the 100% bonus from Bastion in terms of armor/cap. Sacrificing tank for DPS is a good idea, sacrificing tank for no additional benefit is pointless. Agreed. LAM II is needed. I would want to tank most missions outside of bastion. Particularly difficult room, enter Bastion. Popped too many triggers, enter Bastion. Gank squad shows up, enter Bastion. IMO, Bastion should not be REQUIRED in order to survive. It should be used for its other benefits: EWAR imunity & range in particular. Always better to have 2x tank just incase.

Arcosian Arco's Advanced Industries 127	Posted - 2013.11.08 16:39:00 - [11] - Quote It really depends on the type of PVE the OP is doing. If he is running anoms in null then a MJD paladin would probably be the better choice due to the extra range although he would be taking a big risk of getting tackled with bastion locking him in place and the warp speed changes coming with rubicon. If he is just running L4s then a non MJD/Bastion paladin or a nightmare would be the better choice since the NPC usually spawn within 50km of the gate. He also won't have to mess with burning back to gates after he MJD out or worry about DC with bastion and potentially losing his ship. I have made many posts comparing the nightmare and paladin and the truth of it is they are practically the same ship the only difference is one uses shields and the other armor tanks. The differences in DPS, tank, and mission completion times will be hardly noticeable and if you want to nitpick then you really can't say which ship is better since the nightmare will be better in missions where the enemy is close thanks to it's tracking bonus and the paladin will be better in mission where range comes into play and thanks to bastion giving ewar immunity it will be the ship of choice for sansha blockade and vengeance. Either ship can run missions just fine and you would have to really screw something up to lose one. My advice to the OP is to look at your skills and see which one takes the least amount of time and use that one.
FlinchingNinja Kishunuba Crunchy Crunchy Zero Hour Alliance 190	Posted - 2013.11.08 16:48:00 - [12] - Quote stoicfaux wrote: Sexy Cakes wrote: Nightmare will still do more DPS than a Paladin. Only if you include sentry drones. OTOH, the tach Paladin has a noticeable range advantage (70km optimal versus 45km), but the Nightmare has a tracking advantage. So, meh. Nightmare has much lower SP requirement as well and can use the shield skills OP should already have.
Batelle Komm susser Tod 301	Posted - 2013.11.08 19:05:00 - [13] - Quote Fragem666 wrote: Excuse me if I'm wrong wouldn't this make suiciding a paladin much easier since they can't move. Maybe a little bit. You can use bastion mode to tank the gank, or you can use your MJD to escape. I think if you're worried about ganks you can MJD as soon as you enter each pocket (also to position yourself to MJD to the next gate), making those catalysts have to fly 100km to come get you. Which means you will have a good chance to have enough time to exit bastion, and MJD further away, and warp out.
Cipher Jones The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars 956	Posted - 2013.11.08 20:03:00 - [14] - Quote Machariel, Typhoon Fleet Issue, Rattlesnake. Those are the ones I fly That I know about.
stoicfaux 3334	Posted - 2013.11.08 20:59:00 - [15] - Quote Dorororo wrote: You seem to keep repeating this bad idea of putting a MARII on a Paladin in multiple threads. 400 dps tank, while stationary, is not going to be enough for some missions unless you always waste time MJDing away to 100+km. It also has the down side of complete toilet paper tank outside of Bastion, meaning you can never ever come out of Bastion while under fire. There is no reason not to put a LAR II on it, and using a MAR II also completely wastes the 100% bonus from Bastion in terms of armor/cap. Sacrificing tank for DPS is a good idea, sacrificing tank for no additional benefit is pointless. The MJD is there just because Marauders have a MJD bonus in Rubicon. I don't see much of a need for it in level 4s, and wouldn't fit one. YMMV. As for the apparent over-reliance on Bastion mode, that's what the MWD is for. IIRC, 110km is about the max range you'll need to deal with in level 4s. With a 95km optimal, you can sit still in Bastion mode, wipe out the pocket, and then MWD to the next gate (if movement to the next gate is even required.) As someone who flew a Vargur/Golem with a ~350 tank (Pithum C-Type MSB,) the only movement I did involved moving to the next gate and pre-aligning for warp. If ~350 tank is the minimum for level 4s, then getting ~400 tank with something as basic as a MARII and a couple of EANMIIs means that the Paladin is super-tanked. Which means it is trivial to boost the tank with cheap deadspace MARs and/or faction EANMs while still having the convenience of being cap-stable-ish. IMHO, between the 95k optimal and MARII tank, the Rubicon Paladin is potentially a candidate for a nerf in both categories. (Unless it's successful in PvP, in which case CCP will probably leave it as is.) tl;dr - The whole point of the fit is to point out that you would have to try hard to screw up a Paladin fit in Rubicon.
stoicfaux 3334	Posted - 2013.11.08 21:11:00 - [16] - Quote Nolen Cadmar wrote: Dorororo wrote: You seem to keep repeating this bad idea of putting a MARII on a Paladin in multiple threads. 400 dps tank, while stationary, is not going to be enough for some missions unless you always waste time MJDing away to 100+km. It also has the down side of complete toilet paper tank outside of Bastion, meaning you can never ever come out of Bastion while under fire. There is no reason not to put a LAR II on it, and using a MAR II also completely wastes the 100% bonus from Bastion in terms of armor/cap. Sacrificing tank for DPS is a good idea, sacrificing tank for no additional benefit is pointless. Agreed. LAM II is needed. I would want to tank most missions outside of bastion. Particularly difficult room, enter Bastion. Popped too many triggers, enter Bastion. Gank squad shows up, enter Bastion. IMO, Bastion should not be REQUIRED in order to survive. It should be used for its other benefits: EWAR imunity & range in particular. Always better to have 2x tank just incase. Then drop the MJD, and fit a LARII and Heavy Cap Booster II. That's a 333 tank against EM/Therm or 952 tank in Bastion mode. You can even drop the EANMs for active hardeners and get 435 tank (1242 in Bastion.) Again, it's really hard to screw up a Rubicon Paladin. MWD, LAR, Heavy Cap Booster, Pulse Paladin? No worries. MWD, LAR, Heavy Cap Booster, Tachyon Paladin? Yes, but you need CPU friendly faction hardeners or a 3% CPU implant.
Ifly Uwalk Empire Tax Collection Agency 1041	Posted - 2013.11.09 01:24:00 - [17] - Quote Cipher Jones wrote: Machariel, Typhoon Fleet Issue, Rattlesnake. Those are the ones I fly That I know about. Me? CNR, and... . . . uh, yeah - CNR. vOv
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE 365	Posted - 2013.11.09 08:22:00 - [18] - Quote Dorororo wrote: You seem to keep repeating this bad idea of putting a MARII on a Paladin in multiple threads. 400 dps tank, while stationary, is not going to be enough for some missions unless you always waste time MJDing away to 100+km. It also has the down side of complete toilet paper tank outside of Bastion, meaning you can never ever come out of Bastion while under fire. There is no reason not to put a LAR II on it, and using a MAR II also completely wastes the 100% bonus from Bastion in terms of armor/cap. Sacrificing tank for DPS is a good idea, sacrificing tank for no additional benefit is pointless. I sit still with a ~300 omnitank currently, and most of the time I could get away with pulsing it but I'm lazy and have cap rigs so it effectively permaruns. with the dps of the paladin the tank is really an afterthought. the medium rep means I can just turn it on and forget about tank. and so what if I mjd (I doubt I'll ever equip one to my paladin), I'll be doing 955@100+52 or 1051@83+52 with tachys. as for the nightmare, I doubt I can cram more damage mods on that, maybe an extra tracking comp. and between the tracking and optimal bonus I'm pretty sure I'd rather have the optimal.
Lilan Kahn The Littlest Hobos 180	Posted - 2013.11.09 11:56:00 - [19] - Quote navy geddon pwns nightmare
Dudley Schwartz Magic Hamsters 117	Posted - 2013.11.09 12:21:00 - [20] - Quote Lilan Kahn wrote: navy geddon pwns nightmare errrm.. no.

Gimme more Cynos Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 79	Posted - 2013.11.09 12:22:00 - [21] - Quote Dorororo wrote: stoicfaux wrote: Paladin come Rubicon. It's just silly. Pulse: 871 DPS in Bastion mode with a range of 95km + 12km. Yes, that's 95km optimal with pulse lasers. Tank is 400+ in Bastion mode with a MAR II. 73% to 79% resists across the board. Yes, I said MAR II. The MAR and the lasers have 10 minutes of cap. You can make it effectively cap stable if you drop the Burst Aerator for a slight loss in DPS. [Rubicon Paladin, New Setup 1] Heat Sink II Imperial Navy Heat Sink Imperial Navy Heat Sink Imperial Navy Heat Sink Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Medium Armor Repairer II Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Large Micro Jump Drive 100MN Microwarpdrive II Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L Small Tractor Beam II Small Tractor Beam II Small Tractor Beam II Bastion Module I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Energy Burst Aerator II Salvage Drone I x5 Hobgoblin II x10 tl;dr You would have to try really, really, really hard to screw up a Rubicon Paladin. OTOH, a Dominix can get 800 thermal DPS with 100km optimal as well. You seem to keep repeating this bad idea of putting a MARII on a Paladin in multiple threads. 400 dps tank, while stationary, is not going to be enough for some missions unless you always waste time MJDing away to 100+km. It also has the down side of complete toilet paper tank outside of Bastion, meaning you can never ever come out of Bastion while under fire. There is no reason not to put a LAR II on it, and using a MAR II also completely wastes the 100% bonus from Bastion in terms of armor/cap. Sacrificing tank for DPS is a good idea, sacrificing tank for no additional benefit is pointless. 400 DPS tank is plenty.. for every Lv 4 mission - only AE Bonus might get a little rough, but should be fine considered that you probably one-shot those pesky sentries and CM batteries.. those numbers are pretty hilarious btw - 400 dps with a single MAR II is crazy :D And yes, I'm dead serious. My current CNR has roughly 290 dps permatank, combined with arround 1k DPS. Now consider the overkill missiles produce while beeing lazy (I am lazy) and you will end up with roughly 800 dps. those numbers work against every single lv 4 mission - just fine.
FlinchingNinja Kishunuba Crunchy Crunchy Zero Hour Alliance 191	Posted - 2013.11.09 12:29:00 - [22] - Quote Lilan Kahn wrote: navy geddon pwns nightmare Fit?
Lilan Kahn The Littlest Hobos 180	Posted - 2013.11.09 14:28:00 - [23] - Quote FlinchingNinja Kishunuba wrote: Lilan Kahn wrote: navy geddon pwns nightmare Fit? pulses scorch 5 sents 3 heats 1 drone dmg some tank some cap win
Batelle Komm susser Tod 315	Posted - 2013.11.10 19:40:00 - [24] - Quote 400dps sustained tank is quite nice, but its not particularly good if you don't have any ability to burst tank and are also battleship-sized.
Texty State War Academy Caldari State 80	Posted - 2013.11.11 01:54:00 - [25] - Quote Those saying 400dps tank isn't enough are probably those who fit 3 * CCCs on their CNRs.
Ireland VonVicious Vicious Trading Company 214	Posted - 2013.11.11 02:45:00 - [26] - Quote Get a RS. Let your Curators do the pretty laser for you in the blood/sansha missions without wasting your missile skills. Plus: No fear of EW. It does the other missions wonderfully too.
Gimme more Cynos Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 80	Posted - 2013.11.11 11:44:00 - [27] - Quote Batelle wrote: 400dps sustained tank is quite nice, but its not particularly good if you don't have any ability to burst tank and are also battleship-sized. Why do you need higher burst tank? Existing buffer on battleships should provide enough EHP to survive till you've killed enough NPC's.. Atleast, that's what I've experienced. As I said - I'm flying with roughly 290 dps sustained permatank. Burst-tank is not higher, and I haven't met a mission where damage exceeded 60% of my shields yet. Yeah, CNR has a bit of an extra buffer, but my future golem will make up for that with increased resists and stronger reps, so I can't really see why you'ld need more burst-tank, provided you do enough damage.


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