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Eduard Khil XD
Viziam Amarr Empire
6
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 04:45:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hi. I'd like to start this post by saying I'm a big fan of James 315's writing, the work he does, and the concepts he presents. I don't know a huge amount about Erotica, or if he writes much, so for now I'll reserve my judgement about him.
However, I have a question for Erotica, James 315 and hisec scammers/gankers in general:
Do you often PvP where there is a risk of you losing? And if not, can what you do really be called PvP if there is only one side to the engagement?
Allow me to elaborate. Two fleets meet in a situation where they can engage freely. Battle commences, FCs make their plays, skill, strategy and other factors decide the winnerGÇö the fight is wrapped up. Every time you engage, you're putting your own assets and time on the line, as are your opponents. Who the enemy are is totally transparent. Finding their staging system is usually no problemGÇöyou can often attack said group at your leisure, or even follow them around if you hold a grudge.
Now enter the world of hisec ganking and scamming. There is no way to hold a grudge or retaliate against an alt that does not undock in ships that are significantly valuable, and the way most scammers behave, no way to scam them back.
Now, before you call me a supporter of risk free PvE or hisec, I'm not. In fact, EVE might be a better game if they just removed hisec altogether v0v. Risk free PvE income that can be used in PvP is imbalanced.
You'd probobly agree that when players do these kind of activities there is minimal risk of loss to them. There's no point in attacking their gank catalyst, and no way to find out their main.
Why should CCP work to preserve this kind of playstyle? If you are not in a conflict where your enemy can retaliate, why do you find it fun? Should you be allowed to perform any activity in EVE without repercussions/consequences? Why should you be allowed to use any method for scamming if you are completely detached from your PvP main? |

Lady Areola Fappington
New Order Logistics CODE.
813
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 04:53:00 -
[2] - Quote
I like explosions, and I'm playing an economic game with my victims. Sure, buy that replacement retty here, instead of wasting time flying to a hub. It's only a 25% markup, no biggy.
The follow-on to your question is, why shouldn't I blow them up, if I can? I'm playing a PVP game, with others who have agreed to PVP. Not my fault they chose to fly a ship that can't respond to my actions.
If we must, think back to the days of high piracy. Pirates and privateers didn't attack military ships. They went after lightly armed traders for the precise reason we do....they can't fight back. |

Erotica 1
Krypteia Operations CODE.
2317
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 04:54:00 -
[3] - Quote
I will respond and edit this better for you later. Right now I am doing a press conference, which is also posted to the general discussion crowd in another thread. |

Eduard Khil XD
Viziam Amarr Empire
6
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 04:55:00 -
[4] - Quote
I'm listening to the press conference, I like the sound of your voice (no homo) Do you guys have a PvP squad that I could join? |

Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
1646
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 04:58:00 -
[5] - Quote
The more chance your enemy has of winning the worse you are at pvp. |

La Nariz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1128
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 06:04:00 -
[6] - Quote
Eduard Khil XD wrote:I'm listening to the press conference ^^ That depends on your definition of PvP, Varius Xeral.
For example, if you begin a chess match with the same number of pieces and beat a good player, does that not show you are better at chess than if your opponent had a handicap?
~Space E-Bushido~ |

Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
7192
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 06:17:00 -
[7] - Quote
Show us on the wallet doll where Erotica1 touched you.... |

Ryhss
144
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 06:22:00 -
[8] - Quote
No, this new order does not pvp. They are spineless cowards picking on defenseless ships(drones don't count) |

ElQuirko
Jester Syndicate WHY so Seri0Us
2501
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 06:27:00 -
[9] - Quote
Ryhss wrote:No, this new order does not pvp. They are spineless cowards picking on defenseless ships(drones don't count) The poor defenceless carriers, drone BSs, ishtars, gilas, vexors, arbitrators, ishkurs, tristans and more! Won't somebody please think of the carriers, drone BSs, ishtars, gilas, vexors, arbitrators, ishkurs, tristans and more?! |

Ryhss
144
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 06:34:00 -
[10] - Quote
ElQuirko wrote:Ryhss wrote:No, this new order does not pvp. They are spineless cowards picking on defenseless ships(drones don't count) The poor defenceless carriers, drone BSs, ishtars, gilas, vexors, arbitrators, ishkurs, tristans and more! Won't somebody please think of the carriers, drone BSs, ishtars, gilas, vexors, arbitrators, ishkurs, tristans and more?! I've never seen them kill any of those. Targets are usually Retrievers, Hulks, Orcas, and Badgers.(you do realise my new order hatred is pure roleplay, right?) |

Snagletooth Johnson
Snagle Material Services CAStabouts
26
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 06:34:00 -
[11] - Quote
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:I like explosions, and I'm playing an economic game with my victims. Sure, buy that replacement retty here, instead of wasting time flying to a hub. It's only a 25% markup, no biggy.
The follow-on to your question is, why shouldn't I blow them up, if I can? I'm playing a PVP game, with others who have agreed to PVP. Not my fault they chose to fly a ship that can't respond to my actions.
If we must, think back to the days of high piracy. Pirates and privateers didn't attack military ships. They went after lightly armed traders for the precise reason we do....they can't fight back.
They did occasionally attack military ships, just not very often. Most pirate ships could give any naval vessel on it's own a run for it's money and then some. They went after traders not because they were easy targets, but because that's where the money was, or (quite often) they were ordered to. Many pirates/privateers weren't independent outlaws, but were private contractors that work for their respective governments to harass the enemies supply lines during times of "peace." |

Stimfisk Lennelluc
Lucid Dreamers Get Off My Lawn
33
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 06:36:00 -
[12] - Quote
I peeveepee |

Ryhss
144
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 06:41:00 -
[13] - Quote
Stimfisk Lennelluc wrote:I peeveepee I just pee. |

Baali Tekitsu
B0SSAURA xXPlease Pandemic Citizens Reloaded Alliance.Xx
368
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 06:46:00 -
[14] - Quote
#mypvpisbetterthanyours |

Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
1432
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 06:48:00 -
[15] - Quote
Marvel at my PvP-ness! |

Lady Areola Fappington
New Order Logistics CODE.
813
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 07:30:00 -
[16] - Quote
Snagletooth Johnson wrote:
They did occasionally attack military ships, just not very often. Most pirate ships could give any naval vessel on it's own a run for it's money and then some. They went after traders not because they were easy targets, but because that's where the money was, or (quite often) they were ordered to. Many pirates/privateers weren't independent outlaws, but were private contractors that work for their respective governments to harass the enemies supply lines during times of "peace."
The main goal of of pirates rarely was, or even still is, the kill, or even the plunder. It was then the prize money given to them for every ship they brought back. in modern piracy, it's the ransom money.
You're playing to the fantasy of high seas piracy, not to the reality.
We play in a world where death doesn't happen, and the most efficient way to plunder a target is to destroy it. My goal is to force my targets to buy new ships at my nicely inflated price.
Why do freighter gankers kill freighters? That's where the money is. Why do miner gankers gank barges...economic incentive of some kind (Yes there are people who want to see the world burn but if you're looking for logic, here it is.).
What confuses me, is why "carebears" stick up so fiercely for their direct competition. A gank is only bad if it happens to you, and statistically, you aren't the target. Miner Tentpeg and Miner Snaplink are in a belt chewing ore. If I kill Tentpeg, then Snaplink has more ore to collect and sell.
Personally, I'd love having a group around willing to pop my direct competition. Some miners grasp that, and lend us a covert hand. Others complain on the forum.
As for "not being real PVP", I personally consider anything done in EVE to be PVP. Just because it doesn't fall into your eBushido definition, doesn't change the fact that it's a person acting against another in a competitive nature. |

Erotica 1
Krypteia Operations CODE.
2320
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 08:36:00 -
[17] - Quote
Eduard Khil XD wrote:Hi. I'd like to start this post by saying I'm a big fan of James 315's writing, the work he does, and the concepts he presents. I don't know much about Erotica or if he writes well, so I'll reserve my judgement about him.
However, I have a question for Erotica, James 315 and hisec scammers/gankers in general:
Do you often PvP where there is a risk of you losing? And if not, can what you do really be called PvP if there is only one side to the engagement?
Allow me to elaborate. Two fleets meet in a situation where they can engage freely. Battle commences, FCs make their plays, skill, strategy and other factors decide the winnerGÇö the fight is wrapped up. Every time you engage, you're putting your own assets and time on the line, as are your opponents. Who the enemy are is totally transparent. Finding their staging system is usually no problemGÇöyou can often attack said group at your leisure, or even follow them around if you hold a grudge.
Now enter the world of hisec ganking and scamming. There is no way to hold a grudge or retaliate against an alt that does not undock in ships that are significantly valuable, and the way most scammers behave, no way to scam them back.
Now, before you call me a supporter of risk free PvE or hisec, I'm not. In fact, EVE might be a better game if they just removed hisec altogether v0v. Risk free PvE income that can be used in PvP is imbalanced.
You'd probobly agree that when players do these kind of activities there is minimal risk of loss to them. There's no point in attacking their gank catalyst, and no way to find out their main.
Why should CCP work to preserve this kind of playstyle? If you are not in a conflict where your enemy can retaliate, why do you find it fun? Should you be allowed to perform any activity in EVE without repercussions/consequences? Why should you be allowed to use any method for scamming if you are completely detached from your PvP main?
I actually addressed some of your questions in my press conference. The TL/DR version is:
1. I am a terrible pilot and lose ships all the time. Look at my killboard. Note my terrible fits and some of the locations, far from Jita.
2. I did propose some ideas for adjustments to Concord and ganking, as well as freighter fitting. I think you would like some of my ideas and some gankers will be pissed for what I had to say- but they are some honest ideas of mine I'd like seeing debated.
3. I did address my disdain for scammers or other spammers for rolling characters to evade blocks. I have done well by building a brand despite the thousands of blocks. I also proposed some ideas for debate (that I have previously brought up on the forums) for a sort of spam tax and ad cost which would totally change Jita, quite possibly costing me billions. But even though it may cost me, I still think would improve the game for more people than it would negatively affect me.
4. I support the sandbox and all playstyles- or rather all activities, even if I have strong opinions personally on some.
*edit* Thanks for the good questions. I look forward to discussing these and others live with you sometime.
Warm Regards,
-Ero |

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5127
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 09:16:00 -
[18] - Quote
ganking shouldn't be a playstyle stop all ganking now |

Sipphakta en Gravonere
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
378
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 09:25:00 -
[19] - Quote
In practically 100% of the PvP fights I participate in, my enemy has big weapons and powerful friends on his side, so powerful that I always lose my ship. My ~elite PvP~ skills however are so good that I always come out ahead in the ISK war! |

JC Anderson
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
948
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 09:27:00 -
[20] - Quote
Ankblahblah however you spelled her name was downright anti pvp uber carebear. Yet she did win a csm seat with the second highest vote count of all candidates...
Then she started throwing spoons at other csm. |

Brusanan
Sardaukar Merc Guild General Tso's Alliance
145
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 10:15:00 -
[21] - Quote
Eduard Khil XD wrote:I'm listening to the press conference ^^ That depends on your definition of PvP, Varius Xeral.
For example, if you begin a chess match with the same number of pieces and beat a good player, does that not show you are better at chess than if your opponent had a handicap? Everyone starts with the same pieces in Eve too. Everyone starts with a noobship and 5k ISK in their wallet.
But seriously, that's a terrible analogy. Eve isn't a zero-sum game and the only win conditions are goals set by the players themselves. Erotica 1 for CSM! |

Lady Areola Fappington
New Order Logistics CODE.
817
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 11:06:00 -
[22] - Quote
JC Anderson wrote:Ankblahblah however you spelled her name was downright anti pvp uber carebear. Yet she did win a csm seat with the second highest vote count of all candidates...
Then she started throwing spoons at other csm.
SpoonGate BestGate IMHO. Didn't she get kicked off CSM for divulging NDA stuff? Just goes to show how out of bounds carebears behave, I guess. The risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP). |

Sabriz Adoudel
Mission BLITZ
1143
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 11:26:00 -
[23] - Quote
I have a fair number of solo kills of PVP ships. I'd have more if it were not for the pesky tendency of lowsec folks to escalate.
"I'm losing this 1v1, better call in four mates so I don't lose my Astarte to a solo opponent."
Them calling in friends isn't 'bad sportsmanship'. It's good tactics, and it's caused me a fair few losses.
Likewise in my New Order operations, picking a soft target is simply good tactics, and they advance the strategic objectives of the NO. Low losses, high impact - that is not 'bad PVP', it's good PVP. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=238931 - an idea for a new form of hybrid PVE/PVP content. The difference between an enemy and a friend is that you stab your enemies in the front. |

Pak Narhoo
Splinter Foundation
1153
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 11:28:00 -
[24] - Quote
ugh, wrong thread, cary on, cary on. /o\ |

Erotica 1
Krypteia Operations CODE.
2347
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 11:30:00 -
[25] - Quote
Let's get back to the OP's original post, which was nicely written and asks good questions. Can I get everyone on this thread to join me for a discussion of the matter soon? I think we can have a good chat on comms and bond some. See Bio for isk doubling rules. -áIf you didn't read bio, chances are you helped fund those who did.
-á11/11/13 -áNow Running for the Next CSM. -áVote for the Sandbox. -áVote for Erotica 1 |

Mhax Arthie
170
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 11:36:00 -
[26] - Quote
Erotica 1 wrote: 1. I am a terrible pilot and lose ships all the time. Look at my killboard. Note my terrible fits and some of the locations, far from Jita. ...
Hell NO! As much as I love you I cannot accept intruders in our brave Teribad Shitfit Flying Circus club. Your not even close to be terrible nor have a clue what that means. So please, just stay out of this! |

JC Anderson
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
948
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 11:40:00 -
[27] - Quote
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:JC Anderson wrote:Ankblahblah however you spelled her name was downright anti pvp uber carebear. Yet she did win a csm seat with the second highest vote count of all candidates...
Then she started throwing spoons at other csm. SpoonGate BestGate IMHO. Didn't she get kicked off CSM for divulging NDA stuff? Just goes to show how out of bounds carebears behave, I guess.
Yepyep. :/
And then she went and got involved in real world politics as an elected official.
No I'm not joking. O.O |

Lady Areola Fappington
New Order Logistics CODE.
819
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 11:44:00 -
[28] - Quote
JC Anderson wrote:Lady Areola Fappington wrote:JC Anderson wrote:Ankblahblah however you spelled her name was downright anti pvp uber carebear. Yet she did win a csm seat with the second highest vote count of all candidates...
Then she started throwing spoons at other csm. SpoonGate BestGate IMHO. Didn't she get kicked off CSM for divulging NDA stuff? Just goes to show how out of bounds carebears behave, I guess. Yepyep. :/ And then she went and got involved in real world politics as an elected official. No I'm not joking. O.O
Carebears, man...and us evil bad scammers, griefers, gankers, and legitimate ISK doublers are supposed to be bad guys.... The risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP). |

Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
1447
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 11:44:00 -
[29] - Quote
JC Anderson wrote:Lady Areola Fappington wrote:JC Anderson wrote:Ankblahblah however you spelled her name was downright anti pvp uber carebear. Yet she did win a csm seat with the second highest vote count of all candidates...
Then she started throwing spoons at other csm. SpoonGate BestGate IMHO. Didn't she get kicked off CSM for divulging NDA stuff? Just goes to show how out of bounds carebears behave, I guess. Yepyep. :/ And then she went and got involved in real world politics as an elected official. No I'm not joking. O.O
Oh, dear...
Link, if you have one? Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |

JC Anderson
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
948
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 11:51:00 -
[30] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:JC Anderson wrote:Lady Areola Fappington wrote:JC Anderson wrote:Ankblahblah however you spelled her name was downright anti pvp uber carebear. Yet she did win a csm seat with the second highest vote count of all candidates...
Then she started throwing spoons at other csm. SpoonGate BestGate IMHO. Didn't she get kicked off CSM for divulging NDA stuff? Just goes to show how out of bounds carebears behave, I guess. Yepyep. :/ And then she went and got involved in real world politics as an elected official. No I'm not joking. O.O Oh, dear... Link, if you have one?
Her real life campaign video for the Piratenpartij.
I do know she actually won a seat in that election. But I have no idea what she is actually saying in the video itself. ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sZXB8HtLBo
And her CSM Campaign video where she also won a seat.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJI7bUtKMdg
She was rabidly anti PVP (Aside from Faction Warfare) and even more-so against pirates. She actually went as far as to say all pirates in EVE should be locked up in real life.
Then she won a CSM spot.. Go figure.... With the 2nd highest amount of votes between all candidates... Was quite strange. Then she ended up being crazy with a side of spoons and topped with an NDA violation. |
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