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Gadfly Hawke	Posted - 2006.02.14 21:30:00 - [1] It occurs to me that the loot given up by rats could easily support a substantial manufacturing industry all by itself. Most of my stuff I acquired as loot, and what I try to sell frequently has no buyers, which implies that most other people are getting their stuff from loot as well. I'm curious about who manufactures this stuff. Is it CCP? Does CCP buy it off the market, manufactured by player corps? In other words, where does this manna come from?
F'nog	Posted - 2006.02.14 21:54:00 - [2] It comes from wizards with pointy hats. No one manufactures them, they just appear when you kill something. Originally by: Bl4zer But, cmon, this is the Eve forums, we don't let facts get in the way of pointless speculation.
Gadfly Hawke	Posted - 2006.02.14 23:35:00 - [3] Edited by: Gadfly Hawke on 14/02/2006 23:35:22 No, they don't just appear when you kill something. That would be manufacture by CCP, which I doubt is the case. Such a system would threaten the system EVE is built on, which is production. This would depress the EVE economy. If CCP buys them (most likely) from the market, then ratting is what amounts to a subsidy for manufacturing, which turns into a subsidy for the related activities as well. Such purchases would be financed by the various taxes and fees that CCP imposes on transactions. To have CCP doing the manufacture would negate the player driven market. The real question is the mechanics that CCP uses to make its purchases. Is it computer decisions, or are the GMs making the purchase decisions, based on the balance of player manufactured goods in the market? To know this might provide useful information to an enterprising EVE entreprenuer. -----
Livia Tarquina	Posted - 2006.02.14 23:48:00 - [4] I'd assume they are spawned like the rats themselves.
Brastagi	Posted - 2006.02.14 23:54:00 - [5] Ah another conspiration theory --------- "I'm gonna take away your reality and replace it with mine" Adam -Mythbuster
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2006.02.14 23:54:00 - [6] Originally by: Gadfly Hawke Edited by: Gadfly Hawke on 14/02/2006 23:35:22 No, they don't just appear when you kill something. That would be manufacture by CCP, which I doubt is the case. Such a system would threaten the system EVE is built on, which is production. This would depress the EVE economy. If CCP buys them (most likely) from the market, then ratting is what amounts to a subsidy for manufacturing, which turns into a subsidy for the related activities as well. Such purchases would be financed by the various taxes and fees that CCP imposes on transactions. To have CCP doing the manufacture would negate the player driven market. The real question is the mechanics that CCP uses to make its purchases. Is it computer decisions, or are the GMs making the purchase decisions, based on the balance of player manufactured goods in the market? To know this might provide useful information to an enterprising EVE entreprenuer. ----- Um... Its just like loot in any other game. Spawned when the NPCs die. -- Proud member of the [23]. The Tachikomas are DEAD! Click sig for video. <3 Tachikomas -Eldo But I'm the cutest of them all, and I'm not even a blue robot - Wrangler I have seen you. You cannot deny it anymore - Vanamonde You used to be one of the twenty three, now you are a part of me - Cortes Immy > You All - Imaran Tachikomas > All ~kieron POKEMON -eris Jacques was 'ere Capsicum still is \| Jorauk was, but got hungry and left Everytime you turn down a duel, 1 unit of chicken appears on market -zhuge liang
Corunna ElMan	Posted - 2006.02.14 23:56:00 - [7] Originally by: Gadfly Hawke No, they don't just appear when you kill something. Um, yes, they do. I'd guess this is your first MMO and you're unaccustomed to the notion of loot tables and drops. Tell me this: Ever seen a BPO or BPC for a Gistii MWD? Or a named Officer item? Ever gotten a BPC drop for a Succubus? Who makes those things? Obviously not the players - so there goes your theory. I'm not here to win any popularity contests. I couldn't care less what you think of me - all that matters is this: Can you defend your opinions?
Kaladr	Posted - 2006.02.15 00:15:00 - [8] Deep in 0.0 there are 10/10 complexes like the Centus Assembly Plant. Thats where they get all their ships and loot from :) ---- EVE-Central.com Coss-Region Market Browser \| Obsidian Technologies - Manufacturing and Logistics
Gadfly Hawke	Posted - 2006.02.15 01:20:00 - [9] Originally by: Corunna ElMan Tell me this: Ever seen a BPO or BPC for a Gistii MWD? Or a named Officer item? Ever gotten a BPC drop for a Succubus? Who makes those things? Obviously not the players - so there goes your theory. No, I've never seen those things. I assume that they're dropped by higher rats than I've killed. But I have seen lots of 125mm rail guns, Nosfertus, etc. These items are, I assume, manufactured by players. And if I've seen a lot of them in my small experience of killing rats, I conclude that the sum of them dropped throughout the galaxy must be a very large number. If these items are produced by players (or do players only produce ships and ammo?), then randomly spawning them is depressing to the EVE economy. So, I don't think CCP would do that. Instead, to subsidize the economy and make it a little easier for people to spend ISK for goods, CCP drops (except for a few elite items) goods that it buys from the market. If this isn't the case then CCP is acting to depress the EVE economy. Or so it seems to me. ----
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2006.02.15 01:21:00 - [10] Originally by: Gadfly Hawke Originally by: Corunna ElMan Tell me this: Ever seen a BPO or BPC for a Gistii MWD? Or a named Officer item? Ever gotten a BPC drop for a Succubus? Who makes those things? Obviously not the players - so there goes your theory. No, I've never seen those things. I assume that they're dropped by higher rats than I've killed. But I have seen lots of 125mm rail guns, Nosfertus, etc. These items are, I assume, manufactured by players. And if I've seen a lot of them in my small experience of killing rats, I conclude that the sum of them dropped throughout the galaxy must be a very large number. If these items are produced by players (or do players only produce ships and ammo?), then randomly spawning them is depressing to the EVE economy. So, I don't think CCP would do that. Instead, to subsidize the economy and make it a little easier for people to spend ISK for goods, CCP drops (except for a few elite items) goods that it buys from the market. If this isn't the case then CCP is acting to depress the EVE economy. Or so it seems to me. The items are not produced by players. Most tech 1 and all tech 2 items are produced by players. Loot-only items aren't. -- Proud member of the [23]. The Tachikomas are DEAD! Click sig for video. <3 Tachikomas -Eldo But I'm the cutest of them all, and I'm not even a blue robot - Wrangler I have seen you. You cannot deny it anymore - Vanamonde You used to be one of the twenty three, now you are a part of me - Cortes Immy > You All - Imaran Tachikomas > All ~kieron POKEMON -eris Jacques was 'ere Capsicum still is \| Jorauk was, but got hungry and left Everytime you turn down a duel, 1 unit of chicken appears on market -zhuge liang
Gadfly Hawke	Posted - 2006.02.15 01:28:00 - [11] Originally by: Dark Shikari Loot-only items aren't. Is a 125mm rail gun or a Nesferatu loot-only items?
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2006.02.15 01:33:00 - [12] Originally by: Gadfly Hawke Originally by: Dark Shikari Loot-only items aren't. Is a 125mm rail gun or a Nesferatu loot-only items? Tech 1 items drop in loot also. That's why I said not all tech 1 is player-made. NPCing in a way is very similar to mining--both give you minerals--one in the form of ore, and the other in the form of cheap tech 1 items. -- Proud member of the [23]. The Tachikomas are DEAD! Click sig for video. <3 Tachikomas -Eldo But I'm the cutest of them all, and I'm not even a blue robot - Wrangler I have seen you. You cannot deny it anymore - Vanamonde You used to be one of the twenty three, now you are a part of me - Cortes Immy > You All - Imaran Tachikomas > All ~kieron POKEMON -eris Jacques was 'ere Capsicum still is \| Jorauk was, but got hungry and left Everytime you turn down a duel, 1 unit of chicken appears on market -zhuge liang
Gadfly Hawke	Posted - 2006.02.15 02:59:00 - [13] Edited by: Gadfly Hawke on 15/02/2006 02:59:44 Originally by: Dark Shikari NPCing in a way is very similar to mining--both give you minerals--one in the form of ore, and the other in the form of cheap tech 1 items. That makes sense. Both are a form of subsidy of production by CCP. ----
Joe Mozart	Posted - 2006.02.15 06:05:00 - [14] Edited by: Joe Mozart on 15/02/2006 06:05:23 Yes it's the reason that economies in MMOs are hyper-inflationary. If you look at multi-server MMOs, like WoW or EQ, you'll find that market prices for the same item are higher on older servers than on newer servers.
Corunna ElMan	Posted - 2006.02.15 08:07:00 - [15] Originally by: Gadfly Hawke No, I've never seen those things. I assume that they're dropped by higher rats than I've killed. But I have seen lots of 125mm rail guns, Nosfertus, etc. These items are, I assume, manufactured by players. The point I was trying to make is this: Since there are clearly and indisputably items which are game-generated and not crafted, why would there be any reason to believe that CCP would waste time working the market to "put" loot in NPC ships? First of all, how would they even do that? The standard "loot drop" tables suffice much better than writing some code to assign purchased modules to rats. I hope you realize that even if CCP did as you originally suspected, it wouldn't be any better for the economy. It doesn't matter whether they "print" 2000 ISK to buy a module, or just generate it, the effect is the same - adding wealth to the economy with no value to back it up. But don't feel too bad - players print money to order all the time - it's called running missions :) Economies in MMOs don't work the same way they do in the real world. IRL, money stays within a closed system, no matter how vast that system may seem. In game, money comes from "nowhere" and more is generated than is removed from the system - leading to overinflation of the monetary unit and a drastic devaluation of wealth. So far, it hasn't been too bad - I watched what it did to SWG, but I think CCP has been a little more careful and aware of the situation. I'm not here to win any popularity contests. I couldn't care less what you think of me - all that matters is this: Can you defend your opinions?
Shinshi Casoyako	Posted - 2006.02.15 08:56:00 - [16] Gadfly Hawke, can you fix me up with someone who can build the following for me? Partial and Local hull conversion cargo expander Malkuth and arbalast standard missile launchers 150 mm prototype rail gun A C5-l Shield booster (large prefered but other are ok aswell) let me know, cheerz . Seriously Have I Not Said How I Can Assist Some One You Are Killing Online?
Adira Saxx	Posted - 2006.02.15 09:59:00 - [17] Us players can create tech 1 items. We can create tech 2 items. We, as far as I know, can never under any circumstances get a BPO for any named tech 1 items - and these things are among the most popular in the game. I can't help but this it's strange. All the good items are out of player control, leaving us with just the very most basic itms to manufacture. I never could figure out how CCP was thinking on this one... A.S.
Kaladr	Posted - 2006.02.15 10:29:00 - [18] T2 is usualy better than T1-named if you can fit it (for the rat drop items, not the officer/faction mods). Yes, T2 has higher fitting requirements, but you have the skills to back them up, so its usualy not a problem. The deadspace and officer loot items are RARE. They're ultra special. They're not in constant supply. Hence their prices are sky high. You don't generaly equip a PVP ship with them since you will lose them, and the few extra % doesn't help you when you just became primary target. You want something sustainable, that you can replace in 5 minutes for a reasonable amount of cash. Hence T2 and T1 items sell much more frequently than T1-named. ---- EVE-Central.com Coss-Region Market Browser \| Obsidian Technologies - Manufacturing and Logistics
F'nog	Posted - 2006.02.15 11:57:00 - [19] Originally by: Shinshi Casoyako Gadfly Hawke, can you fix me up with someone who can build the following for me? Partial and Local hull conversion cargo expander Malkuth and arbalast standard missile launchers 150 mm prototype rail gun A C5-l Shield booster (large prefered but other are ok aswell) let me know, cheerz Those are all loot-only items since they have "names." No one can build them. Originally by: Bl4zer But, cmon, this is the Eve forums, we don't let facts get in the way of pointless speculation.
Suhadi	Posted - 2006.02.15 12:04:00 - [20] Originally by: Kaladr T2 is usualy better than T1-named if you can fit it (for the rat drop items, not the officer/faction mods). Yes, T2 has higher fitting requirements, but you have the skills to back them up, so its usualy not a problem. The deadspace and officer loot items are RARE. They're ultra special. They're not in constant supply. Hence their prices are sky high. You don't generaly equip a PVP ship with them since you will lose them, and the few extra % doesn't help you when you just became primary target. You want something sustainable, that you can replace in 5 minutes for a reasonable amount of cash. Hence T2 and T1 items sell much more frequently than T1-named. Actually there are a surprising number of named T1 items which are better than their T2 counterparts, which may explain why some of them are more expensive. They can be better for fitting or cap usage for example, while having otherwise identical stats to T2 items. --------------------------------------------------
Malicious Afterthought	Posted - 2006.02.15 12:10:00 - [21] Apologies if I'm misunderstanding, but are the following statements correct? Tech 1 items (eg 125mm Railgun I) are loot drops and can be manufactured by players. Tech 2 items (eg 125mm Railgun II) are only manufactured by players. Named items (eg 125mm Compressed coil gun) are only loot drops and cannot be manufactured by players. Thanks in advance.
Rodge	Posted - 2006.02.15 13:16:00 - [22] Originally by: Malicious Afterthought Apologies if I'm misunderstanding, but are the following statements correct? Tech 1 items (eg 125mm Railgun I) are loot drops and can be manufactured by players. Tech 2 items (eg 125mm Railgun II) are only manufactured by players. Named items (eg 125mm Compressed coil gun) are only loot drops and cannot be manufactured by players. Thanks in advance. Don't apologise. You're exactly correct [ 2005.04.17 00:34:30 ] Nagilam > u better leave Rodge, u will not gank any1 else 2nite......
Gadfly Hawke	Posted - 2006.02.15 14:59:00 - [23] Thanks for the info! I learned a bit about the various game items! I'll at least know not to go looking for BPs for some items that I might like to manufacture. ----

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