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Heather Maywether
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2013.11.17 00:36:00 -
[1] - Quote
I have one problem and one problem only with the people I fly with atm. Most of them are armour pilots. That's all fine and good, but when I want to take a few caracals out and kite some people, it's a bit grating. I'm going out with said guys tomorrow in a small armour gang. Problem with small gangs is that they fight outnumbered a lot. I'm perfectly fine with this, it makes life interesting, but I want to fight and stand a chance of winning while outnumbered. So yeah, how do we do this when we can't out run/out manoeuvre them? I've got a couple of ideas. Splitting the enemy up would help, but is easier said than done when you're flying something as agile as a sack of potatoes. ECM drones would help too (don't want to bring a Falcon, lest I burn in the hate of my enemies).
Before a certain someone comes in and tells us that kiting is the only option and anyone not flying a cruiser capable of pulling 5.6Km/s is a waste of isk and pixels, that's just not an option at this present time.
Thanks in advance for any replies. |

Deen Wispa
Justified Chaos
587
|
Posted - 2013.11.17 00:46:00 -
[2] - Quote
Hi- Other than proper scouting and telling your FC to don't fight completely outnumbered, there is no viable option other than those you listed.
Have you considered trying shield rails thoraxes, arty ruptures, or nano omens? Some are better than others but perhaps a decent compromise if you want to make the transition to shield easier on the armor guys High Five. Yeah! C'est La Eve . |

Chessur
Strontless Mistakes Fatal Ascension
263
|
Posted - 2013.11.17 01:08:00 -
[3] - Quote
Heather Maywether wrote:I have one problem and one problem only with the people I fly with atm. Most of them are armour pilots. That's all fine and good, but when I want to take a few caracals out and kite some people, it's a bit grating. I'm going out with said guys tomorrow in a small armour gang. Problem with small gangs is that they fight outnumbered a lot. I'm perfectly fine with this, it makes life interesting, but I want to fight and stand a chance of winning while outnumbered. So yeah, how do we do this when we can't out run/out manoeuvre them? I've got a couple of ideas. Splitting the enemy up would help, but is easier said than done when you're flying something as agile as a sack of potatoes. ECM drones would help too (don't want to bring a Falcon, lest I burn in the hate of my enemies).
Before a certain someone comes in and tells us that kiting is the only option and anyone not flying a cruiser capable of pulling 5.6Km/s is a waste of isk and pixels, that's just not an option at this present time.
Thanks in advance for any replies.
The only way to fight out numbered, and win in an armor situation- is to use very scary ships. Ships that will cause people to either
A. Not fight you or B. Blob you even harder
The trick is to somehow keep these ships out of sight, until you can bait the other gang into attacking.
IE.
Curse Bhallgorn Armageddon Loki / Prot Archon
However there is option C. Use oversized AB's and have the disengage ability, while still armor tanking like a bausssss
Im talking
100MN Sacs / Guardians 100MN Arguror Navy 100MN SFI 100MN scythe Fleet
Lastly you could use ships that people underesitmate in an RR format, don't use obvious logi- to make yourself look more engaeable.
Vexors Arbis Arguror Navy
But you are correct- Nanoing is 100% better, and anything not nanoing is a waste of pixles. |

Taoist Dragon
Bastion of Mad Behaviour
687
|
Posted - 2013.11.17 01:23:00 -
[4] - Quote
Nano'ing is not 'better' just easier as you don't have to work as hard to setup the engagement becasue you have the speed to compensate for a bad setup etc. That is why it is favoured. Most people don't work for their kills so they pick the 'easiest' method not the best.
There is no 'best' in eve. Get that out of your head and you'll do a lot better and have more fun. Otherwise you'll just end up whining like a lot of the posters here on the forums.
Having said that if nano/kitey stuff if your thing then find some people who do that if your current group doesn't want to try it out or skill up for it.
And since a lot of the armour modules/rigs had their speed penalties reduced/removed you can fit a decent active armour tank without affecting your speeds.
The omen, nomen, SFI can sport good speed as well have an active armour tank etc. That is the Way, the Tao.
Balance is everything.
http://taoistdragon.blogspot.com.au/ |

Heather Maywether
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.11.17 01:34:00 -
[5] - Quote
My usual ship of choice is actually the Nomen (Or Omen because I'm poor, though it's much worse at the job) with eanms and an MAAR. It's fun and shockingly fast for an armour boat and projects like a boss. I'm just not sure active tanks would work when you're looking at gangs of up to ten people. Could be wrong though, usually am.
And I'm not after a "best" anything, just a way to not whelp our ships when we inevitably take a fight with bad odds.
One approach I had in mind against a particular bunch of guys who pretty much perma camp this one gate was to warp to the gate at distance, then warp off. They've shown in the past they'll follow me/us, especially if we can make them believe we're running. People will always chase someone they believe to be running scared. Warp to my chosen celestial at range, and then when they burn after me they've separated themselves and done my hard work for me.
But that's an ideal engagement under ideal circumstances for my fleet. Ideal engagements don't often happen. |

Vordak Kallager
Mafia Redux Phobia.
539
|
Posted - 2013.11.17 01:36:00 -
[6] - Quote
2 Oneiros, 4+ Deimos, 2 Ashimmu. Enjoy and have fun. o/o/ If you're feeling baller, go with a solOneiros. Sa souvraya niende misain ye. |

Baali Tekitsu
B0SSAURA xXPlease Pandemic Citizens Reloaded Alliance.Xx
398
|
Posted - 2013.11.17 01:49:00 -
[7] - Quote
Answer is a mad active tank or remote repair setup. Try Hyperions or Dominixes for instance. If your budget is a bit lower you might have success with RR Vexors or Prophecies. RATE LIKE SUBSCRIBE |

Taoist Dragon
Bastion of Mad Behaviour
687
|
Posted - 2013.11.17 02:27:00 -
[8] - Quote
Heather Maywether wrote:My usual ship of choice is actually the Nomen (Or Omen because I'm poor, though it's much worse at the job) with eanms and an MAAR. It's fun and shockingly fast for an armour boat and projects like a boss. I'm just not sure active tanks would work when you're looking at gangs of up to ten people. Could be wrong though, usually am.
And I'm not after a "best" anything, just a way to not whelp our ships when we inevitably take a fight with bad odds.
One approach I had in mind against a particular bunch of guys who pretty much perma camp this one gate was to warp to the gate at distance, then warp off. They've shown in the past they'll follow me/us, especially if we can make them believe we're running. People will always chase someone they believe to be running scared. Warp to my chosen celestial at range, and then when they burn after me they've separated themselves and done my hard work for me.
But that's an ideal engagement under ideal circumstances for my fleet. Ideal engagements don't often happen.
TBH this pretty much the way to go in breaking up any gang really. It is all about how you 'setup' your fight. Rather than a straight up brawl. That is the Way, the Tao.
Balance is everything.
http://taoistdragon.blogspot.com.au/ |

Heather Maywether
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.11.17 02:40:00 -
[9] - Quote
Taoist Dragon wrote:TBH this pretty much the way to go in breaking up any gang really. It is all about how you 'setup' your fight. Rather than a straight up brawl.
Good to know I had the right sort of idea. Oh and, Vordak, that comp looks just brutal. If only we had the ISK for that. Though I bet getting a fight would be tough. I ran into something sorta similar camping a (usually empty) gate not long back in my Nomen. Couldn't even burn back to gate before they alpha'd straight through me. |

Milton Middleson
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
397
|
Posted - 2013.11.17 10:40:00 -
[10] - Quote
If you really want to fight outnumbered and not just kite around like a douchebag and chestbeat about killing light tackle, heavy armor brawlers in a spider set up or with logistics support is often the way to go. You are, however, committed, so if they bring more stuff than you can handle, you're probably going to die, so be wary of picking fights in/near someone's home system.
Also, e-war. You have free midslots. Use them. |
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Roime
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
3664
|
Posted - 2013.11.17 11:03:00 -
[11] - Quote
RAH+MAAR+800mm plate on Gallente ships, T2 or T1. Start the fight on your terms.
Or dual rep Deimoses. Gallente ships without plates or resist rigs are very agile.
Notify-á-á You cannot do that while warping. |

Danny John-Peter
Snuff Box
344
|
Posted - 2013.11.17 12:45:00 -
[12] - Quote
MWD Ishtars and Zealots with MWD Oneiroses.
Everything in that gang will pull 2k/s before heat or implants and will project out to 40k.
Contrary to popular belief you don't actually need to go 5k/s to kite most gangs, this comp can kite reasonably well, and when caught and forced to brawl will still benefit from insane EHP/Resists and Close range DPS.
Whats not to like.
|

Machiavelli's Nemesis
Angry Mustellid
353
|
Posted - 2013.11.17 12:46:00 -
[13] - Quote
AAR Deimoses are the future and, in fact, the present.
Other than that, what the dude further up the page said about bringing logi counters, neuts and stuff. |

Pookoko
Sigma Sagittarii Inc.
44
|
Posted - 2013.11.18 05:24:00 -
[14] - Quote
Only works in really small scale, say < 5 ships, but having a slave set often surprises the opponents as they think they can handle your ship because they have the number on their side, but then they find out your tank is way much more than what they initially thought.
Other than that, Snake set is great for low-sec. I have been flying pretty much anything with snake set for long time (except BS hulls, for which I use slave set). Especially with active armor rig changes that did away with the velocity penalty, you can hit some surprising speed with active tanked snaked armor ship. I caught a few Cynabals & Vagabonds in my snaked/active tanked Brutix in my time.
I know you are more asking for fleet comps and tactics, but if you haven't done so already, do consider investing in pirate implants, they make a lot of difference if you are fighting out numbered,
|

Flyinghotpocket
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
200
|
Posted - 2013.11.18 05:39:00 -
[15] - Quote
Heather Maywether wrote:Problem with small gangs is that they fight outnumbered a lot. I'm perfectly fine with this, it makes life interesting, but I want to fight and stand a chance of winning while outnumbered. So yeah, how do we do this when we can't out run/out manoeuvre them?
you need reps. take it from the pros at fighting outnumbered while in armor gangs. |

Batelle
Komm susser Tod
363
|
Posted - 2013.11.18 17:22:00 -
[16] - Quote
bring some MWD oneiros Fighting is Magic |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
796
|
Posted - 2013.11.19 13:33:00 -
[17] - Quote
Armor gangs doe snto need to be ultra slow gangs.
You can be still mobile enough. Example? make a gang of 3-4 navy omens. THey are good kiters.
Also armro gangs need to rely more on special effects from mid slots. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

Maximus Decimal
Biohazard. WINMATAR.
21
|
Posted - 2013.11.19 17:19:00 -
[18] - Quote
The problem with armor gangs is that they are more often than not fighting at close range, and the ability to negate incoming dps is limited. You must solely rely on your tank/logi, one way round this is e-war. Armor ships tend to utilize the small sig radius that comes with not having shield modules/rigs, and often use afterburners in place of MWDs, so tracking disruption is preferred, but sensor damps with scan res dampening scrips can also be put to good use. ECM is a fantastic way of negating incoming dps or dealing with enemy logistics, however ECM ships are normally very thin and shouldn't really be up close if they can help it.
Other than your fleet composition and fittings there are a few ways you can potentially 'win' an engagement with a larger gang using hit and run/ninja warfare tactics, not to be confused with guerrilla warfare tactics. Unfortunately these tactics are best employed using shield fitted ships due to their fast align times, though it is not impossible with armor fleets, you just have to be on the ball and predict enemy movements.
As a smaller gang you will never engage on enemy terms and always have the field set up to your advantage, 99% of the time larger gangs will take the fight if they are not setting the terms (because of numbers advantage) you can use this to your advantage. 'using their weight against them' - by forcing them to warp onto and off grid multiple times. IE. by chasing you. Eventually they will leave a straggler behind that you can pounce on. If you set it up correctly and you have enough DPS to destroy your target and GTFO before the backup arrives you can ultimately keep doing this until the enemy fleet is at a satisfactory 'weight' for you to engage in an open fight or until they decide they have had enough chasing you and ping-ponging around the system. Chipping away at their fleet. Patients is required for this method and it is not 100% fool proof. As an FC you must predict and assume that they are predicting you also.
I hope you have found this helpful.
MD |

Batelle
Komm susser Tod
380
|
Posted - 2013.11.19 17:35:00 -
[19] - Quote
The best armor gangs I ever flew in were 10-20 man spider-RR battleship gangs. Like 7 megathrons, 10 navy megas, and a handful of amarr BS. We had no tackle, no logi, no ewar, no one ever fought us, we never caught anyone. This i think this was around fall 2009 and we would roam around pureblind mostly. One time we got up to YAO in Deklein and camped the station. No one undocked and we just bullshitted on teamspeak and did epic battleship conga lines for literally 20 minutes. I can't remember exactly which NC alliance owned the station at the time; this was after triumvirate's second time up there (i think) and before goons lived there.
Pretty sure you can't do that with an armor gang these days.
Actually the BEST armor gang I was in we used to bash a large hisec pos. We had few logi and a bunch of closerange ships to take out guns. We had like.. 15 people for a faction medium tower. Despite having neut batteries and ewar, they couldn't break our tank, but we also couldn't incap guns faster than they could bring them in and anchor+online them (totally broken btw), despite doing multiple orbits of the shields to get each gun. We eventually slowboated 300km away to escape scram range and lost zero ships.
TL;DR armor is slow, requires you to go in expensive and with high sp, and people will run from you or blob you, as with anything else. Fighting is Magic |

Pinky Feldman
Gank Bangers
662
|
Posted - 2013.11.20 09:15:00 -
[20] - Quote
Maximus Decimal wrote:The problem with armor gangs is that they are more often than not fighting at close range, and the ability to negate incoming dps is limited. You must solely rely on your tank/logi, one way round this is e-war. Armor ships tend to utilize the small sig radius that comes with not having shield modules/rigs, and often use afterburners in place of MWDs, so tracking disruption is preferred, but sensor damps with scan res dampening scrips can also be put to good use. ECM is a fantastic way of negating incoming dps or dealing with enemy logistics, however ECM ships are normally very thin and shouldn't really be up close if they can help it.
Other than your fleet composition and fittings there are a few ways you can potentially 'win' an engagement with a larger gang using hit and run/ninja warfare tactics, not to be confused with guerrilla warfare tactics. Unfortunately these tactics are best employed using shield fitted ships due to their fast align times, though it is not impossible with armor fleets, you just have to be on the ball and predict enemy movements.
As a smaller gang you will never engage on enemy terms and always have the field set up to your advantage, 99% of the time larger gangs will take the fight if they are not setting the terms (because of numbers advantage) you can use this to your advantage. 'using their weight against them' - by forcing them to warp onto and off grid multiple times. IE. by chasing you. Eventually they will leave a straggler behind that you can pounce on. If you set it up correctly and you have enough DPS to destroy your target and GTFO before the backup arrives you can ultimately keep doing this until the enemy fleet is at a satisfactory 'weight' for you to engage in an open fight or until they decide they have had enough chasing you and ping-ponging around the system. Chipping away at their fleet. Patients is required for this method and it is not 100% fool proof. As an FC you must predict and assume that they are predicting you also.
I hope you have found this helpful.
MD
M8 armor gangs at least in the cruiser size are all about damage mitigation.
The moar you cry the less you pee |
|

Super Chair
Project Cerberus Caldari State Capturing
559
|
Posted - 2013.11.20 11:09:00 -
[21] - Quote
Flyinghotpocket wrote:Heather Maywether wrote:Problem with small gangs is that they fight outnumbered a lot. I'm perfectly fine with this, it makes life interesting, but I want to fight and stand a chance of winning while outnumbered. So yeah, how do we do this when we can't out run/out manoeuvre them?
you need reps. take it from the pros at fighting outnumbered while in armor gangs.
^ this
Amarrian Vengence is one of the best corps out there that can fight heavily outnumbered and still come out on top. There are so many setups you can use to fight outnumbered. You can use the obvious logi choice or take it from pocket and use something unorthodox such as RR sacs/RR vengences. :D Project Cerberus is recruiting for the US Timezone, click here |

Desudes
The Scope Gallente Federation
63
|
Posted - 2013.11.20 12:01:00 -
[22] - Quote
Resist up like crazy and brawl with logi. Remember to eccm ^_^ and random ewar \o/ Excuse me, but what the f*ck are you desu? |

Flyinghotpocket
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
200
|
Posted - 2013.11.20 20:58:00 -
[23] - Quote
Super Chair wrote:Flyinghotpocket wrote:Heather Maywether wrote:Problem with small gangs is that they fight outnumbered a lot. I'm perfectly fine with this, it makes life interesting, but I want to fight and stand a chance of winning while outnumbered. So yeah, how do we do this when we can't out run/out manoeuvre them?
you need reps. take it from the pros at fighting outnumbered while in armor gangs. ^ this Amarrian Vengence is one of the best corps out there that can fight heavily outnumbered and still come out on top. There are so many setups you can use to fight outnumbered. You can use the obvious logi choice or take it from pocket and use something unorthodox such as RR sacs/ RR vengences. :D
daw lord the revengeance video! made obsolete by inquisitors! same as the RRmaller video from way back in the old days of militia.
spider tanking is a very common why of armor tanking and going outnumbered however there are many approachs as super has said, limitless choices to be made if you have a specific gang idea in mind send me an evemail and ill give you my imput on it. |

Milton Middleson
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
398
|
Posted - 2013.11.20 21:10:00 -
[24] - Quote
tbh the best way to brawl outnumbered, armor or shield, is to just severely outship your opponents and not mention it after the fact. |

Pinky Feldman
Gank Bangers
662
|
Posted - 2013.11.21 14:25:00 -
[25] - Quote
Milton Middleson wrote:tbh the best way to brawl outnumbered, armor or shield, is to just severely outship your opponents and not mention it after the fact.
"Dude of course we had to use [insert ship type 2-3 levels higher than opponents]! We were fighting [number of people in local] and we only had x in our fleet."
Everyone who has ever fought outnumbered ever.
The moar you cry the less you pee |

Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire
325
|
Posted - 2013.11.21 16:50:00 -
[26] - Quote
Pinky Feldman wrote:Milton Middleson wrote:tbh the best way to brawl outnumbered, armor or shield, is to just severely outship your opponents and not mention it after the fact. "Dude of course we had to use [insert ship type 2-3 levels higher than opponents]! We were fighting [number of people in local] and we only had x in our fleet." Everyone who has ever fought outnumbered ever.
Outshipping is kind of mandatory to win outnumbered. It doesn't need to be a simply better ship, but a ship more adept at handling that situation. For example, attacking a fleet of railgus with AB-vexors might turn into a wonderful sucess, but only as you *outshipped* them and forced them to engage in a situation more suitable for your gang. It's mostly rock-paper-scissors.
Creating good conditions on grid is also crucial, try comparing 2 raildeimos and an EAF 100off a gate, with hostiles jumping through and having to burn to you and compare again to you having to start the fight at 0. Two gangs and depending on the start situation two fundamentally different results.
Could even go further, active tanked eos+kronos (eos running links) can easily take on a small camp of 5-6 HACs(BCs) and a few other ships, but bring a bhaalgorn or two geddons and those active tanks will run out of boosters a lot earlier, they could also warp in an oneiros or scimitar at range and just save their crew at no risk at all while waiting for you to run dry. LF EU-wormhole corp. PVP only. I don't mind local reps at all. |
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