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RIP Fun PVE Vargur

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Zor'katar Matari Recreation 204	Posted - 2013.11.20 12:27:00 - [1] - Quote If you liked it before, why not fly it the same way as before Rubicon? If you ignore Bastion, you get more EHP than before, but slightly less tank due to the weaker cap. You're a bit slower, but let's face it... you're at BS speed, which is bad any way you slice it. And both lock range and scan res are better than before... the latter significantly. Plus you get the MJD bonus, which means you can pretty much end up anywhere you want to on the field in a little over a minute. Don't scoff at Bastion, though. I pulled Serpentis Assault as my first mission last night... it is SO nice to be able to set up and completely ignore damps. That was a hell of a fun mission. Profitable, too.
Zor'katar Matari Recreation 204	Posted - 2013.11.20 12:31:00 - [2] - Quote Quish McQuiddy wrote: Yes - and on a vargur 50km is at the 100 dps range of autocannons. Try it. Hmm? A bastioned AC Vargur with a TE and two range-scripted TCs does ~700 dps at 50k, and that's with T2 gyros.
Zor'katar Matari Recreation 204	Posted - 2013.11.20 13:15:00 - [3] - Quote Kagura Nikon wrote: Zor'katar wrote: Hmm? A bastioned AC Vargur with a TE and two range-scripted TCs does ~700 dps at 50k, and that's with T2 gyros. NOPE. it does NOT! VArgur only do full dps at point blank range!!! It does, actually. Raw DPS for an AC Vargur is almost 1000. Graph it in Pyfa... it's still getting around 700 at 50k.
Zor'katar Matari Recreation 204	Posted - 2013.11.20 13:26:00 - [4] - Quote Lloyd Roses wrote: > Use Autocannons > Load regular close range ammo > MJD 100k away > complain that you don't apply damage at range anymore, ignore the TE nerf, blame everything on the hull. Way to go! To be fair, at 750dps with 4 faction Gyros, I'm pretty sure he's using Artillery. Lloyd Roses wrote: @Vargur in Bastion: The Bastionmod is only necessary for challenging pve, like soloing c4/c5 anoms, running Instrumental cores (yes, pve with 2k+ incoming dps) It does not make any sense to fit a bastionmodule on a L4-marauder, putting aside the immunity to NPC-ewar. That's a pretty massive thing to put aside in some missions. Bastion is plenty useful in L4s from the standpoint of freeing up slots formerly used for tank to put them to better use. I suppose if you were already running a 2-slot tank, though, then it would be pretty underwhelming.
Zor'katar Matari Recreation 204	Posted - 2013.11.20 13:29:00 - [5] - Quote Kagura Nikon wrote: With barrage, that is what you need to reach 90 km falloff (that would be needed to loose only 30% of dps at 50 km) the vargur then only does raw 700 dps with the guns. Barrage? Ew. Kagura Nikon wrote: Republic fleet amo for 800mm guns, 3 gyro T2 1 TC 1 TE. BAStion module And your falloff is 63 km!!! That way you are doing roughly 550 dps at 50km. Ok, now try 4 Gyro, 1 TE, 2 scripted TC, and a Burst Aerator rig, all T2. That's a bit more realistic, especially with the slots that are freed up by Bastion bonuses.
Zor'katar Matari Recreation 204	Posted - 2013.11.20 13:51:00 - [6] - Quote Kagura Nikon wrote: Ever heard of stack penalties? Old vargiur piltos that knew what they were doign woudl not waste so much modules on useles stack nerfed attributes. They would put also stuff for speed.. to blitz faster . Getting clsoer faster was way more efficient way of increasign dps than fighting a 4th level stack nerf for a tiny bit more falloff (remember bastion modules suffer stack nerf). And when I was an old Vargur pilot, I stuck to 3 Gyros for that reason. But now that we have the new Vargur, the rules have changed a bit. Yes, stacking penalties are a thing, but the DPS bonus of the fourth Gyro is non-negligible, and there really isn't anything better to do with the fifth low slot, since 2 TC + 1 TE is superior to 2 TE + 1 TC, and the Bastion module frees up mids to make that an easy trade. If mobility was a big thing for you, you're far more likely to have been flying a Machariel. The Vargur's draw for me has always been the salvage-as-you-go factor, and as such, sitting in one spot collecting wrecks for my salvage drones to munch has always been my MO. Being able to MJD into position and then project more damage out to tractor range is a huge boon.
Zor'katar Matari Recreation 207	Posted - 2013.11.20 20:53:00 - [7] - Quote Quish McQuiddy wrote: In a way - those who say they like it are maybe the kind of people who do missions for isk and nothing else. I do them for light non PVP relief, a bit of isk and sec repair, I fly flew the vargur for the fun - anyone who used it had to fly it to apply their DPS, not sit still with missiles, sentries or poor tracking lasers. Thats why its RIP for me. I fly missions for fun/catharsis, personally, and last night I actually enjoyed Assault for the first time ever. I know several people have said it already, but seriously... have you considered a Machariel? It's similar to a Vargur but with more focus on mobility. Sounds like it's exactly what you're going for.
Zor'katar Matari Recreation 207	Posted - 2013.11.21 12:18:00 - [8] - Quote Quish McQuiddy wrote: A cruiser beats this beasts DPS - its overtanked undergunned. I'd love to see a projectile cruiser that can come close to 1000 dps.
Zor'katar Matari Recreation 207	Posted - 2013.11.21 13:37:00 - [9] - Quote Kagura Nikon wrote: When the vargur becomes the WORSE marauder it is a nerf. Its ismple. OP was complaining about pre-Rubicon Vargur vs. current Vargur. Comparing Vargur to other marauders is an entirely different conversation.
Zor'katar Matari Recreation 207	Posted - 2013.11.22 04:00:00 - [10] - Quote Julie Thorne wrote: The reason why a lot of people are happy with the changes is that they changed their setups and their tactics too. I already had MWD, 2x TC, 1x TE, 4x gyro, Burst Aerator II fitted, and I hardly ever had issues with my tank or cap. There is not much to improve on this. Drop an invulnerability field for an MJD? That is practically nothing. I would rather have the speed back. So make it 3 TCs and swap the TE for an Overdrive. On an AB, it's all of 4m/s slower than the pre-Rubicon Vargur. On an MWD it's actually marginally faster.

Zor'katar Matari Recreation 222	Posted - 2013.12.03 16:50:00 - [11] - Quote Nolak Ataru wrote: Rubicon brought these nifty little modules called "Mobile Tractor Units" with ranges of 100km+. And as a AC boat you're always fighting in falloff. Thats the problem with ACs, no matter what boat you choose. Also MJD increases optimal and falloff, as well as boosting tank so you can drop a mod for another TC/TE. You can only reasonably use one mobile tractor at once, which is a really slow way to do it (especially at range). If you're leaving them behind to return and clean up later that's fine, but for loot/salvage as you go, 3 tractors and a flight of salvage drones is going to keep up much better. Yes, ACs are always fighting in falloff. But with ridiculous 70km+ falloffs, if you pick the right spot to set up you're still going to be applying at least as much DPS on average as best-case-scenario arties. Even with a relatively tanky close range Bastion fit, you're already stacking so many range modules that the Bastion bonus is tiny and any more modules aren't going to help significantly. There's certainly nothing wrong with using an arty Vargur if that's your thing. It'll work just fine. But ACs still feel like the stronger option to me. (I reserve the right to change my mind on a mission-by-mission basis, but haven't yet found one where I felt arties would work better.)
Zor'katar Matari Recreation 223	Posted - 2013.12.05 16:09:00 - [12] - Quote Ghost Phius wrote: A ton of asstalking and just straight up bullshit in this thread for sure. Thank you for your contribution.
Zor'katar Matari Recreation 230	Posted - 2013.12.10 22:07:00 - [13] - Quote Kagura Nikon wrote: even with 70 km falloff. Vargur is far far less effective than golem and paladin ( I do not have a kronos to comapre, have only the other 3). I only undock the vargur for a single misson now.. Buzz kill. Its the only one the vargur completes faster than the other 2. In the others, its WAY slower. shrug I'll take your word for it. I'm only trained in Minmatar so far, so I couldn't really care less about the other ones. All I know is that Rubicon improved the Vargur for me. Kagura Nikon wrote: Falloff is nOT range. at 70 km you are doign HORRIBLE DPS. If your falloff is 70 km, you should try to fight at 25 km to have a GOOD dps. Anythign further than that and you do less dps than a paladin does at 70 km and less than a golem does at 200 km Huh? Falloff is not range? Of course it is. And no, no one's suggesting to run a 70km falloff ship with a 70km engagement range, so you can forget that strawman. But at 48km (edge of tractor range) on a reasonable Vargur fit, you still get around 70% of max DPS, which is nothing to sneeze at, especially since it only increases as things get closer (and you have lots of leeway there with the great tracking).

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