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Ulstan
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Posted - 2003.09.03 14:49:00 -
[31]
"Blackbird + 4 sensor dampeners -> (0.5^4)*254,8 = 16km.
Blackbird + 3 sensor dampeners -> (0.5^3)*254,8 = 32km."
How is this a problem?
The only range you need is 20km. Anything longer than that is essentially wasted until CCP gives us long range warp scramblers.
If a blackbird runs 4 sensor dampeners, then he has 2 slots left - he needs a warp jammer and a stasis web. No web = you can just afterburn or MWD your way out :)
That means he has no shield booster whatsoever. Which means any drones you have, which are unaffected by EW, can tear the bb apart.
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Dragon Emperor
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Posted - 2003.09.03 15:34:00 -
[32]
you guys said sensor booster is the counter for sensor dampener must have no experience with ew. no sensor booster CAN'T counter sensor dampener, you need at least 2 sensor booster to counter 1 sensor dampener and sensor booster itself is med slot modual too, get the idea?
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Dragon Emperor
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Posted - 2003.09.03 15:34:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Dragon Emperor on 03/09/2003 15:51:27
 Quote:
"Blackbird + 4 sensor dampeners -> (0.5^4)*254,8 = 16km.
Blackbird + 3 sensor dampeners -> (0.5^3)*254,8 = 32km."
How is this a problem?
The only range you need is 20km. Anything longer than that is essentially wasted until CCP gives us long range warp scramblers.
If a blackbird runs 4 sensor dampeners, then he has 2 slots left - he needs a warp jammer and a stasis web. No web = you can just afterburn or MWD your way out :)
That means he has no shield booster whatsoever. Which means any drones you have, which are unaffected by EW, can tear the bb apart.
how is it a problem?how many med slots you have?
btw, that's basic modual, best pirate modual is 0.4,(0.4^4)*254,8 = 6.52288.
tomb nerf hardeners will force those tanks go back to ew monster.......hope that's not what you want......
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.09.03 15:58:00 -
[34]
Quote:
Only 2 kind of shieldhardeners, this causes that there will be 2 kind of damage types left. Therefor if someone uses the right crystals / ammo he can avoid the dmg hardeners.
I would *love* to hear with which crystal you can counter a em & thermal hardneer and with which hybrid ammo a thermal & kinetic hardener.
This only applies to projectiles.
free speech not allowed here |
Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.09.03 16:02:00 -
[35]
Quote:
how is it a problem?how many med slots you have?
btw, that's basic modual, best pirate modual is 0.4,(0.4^4)*254,8 = 6.52288.
tomb nerf hardeners will force those tanks go back to ew monster.......hope that's not what you want......
If he uses 4 sensor inhibitors drones will kill the BB, as was said before, if he uses 3 it will reduce it to 16.3 km, giving it les than 3 km to navigate between warp jammer and your targeting range. Nvermind that you can use a MWD or AB then, since he cannot web you. What's the problem?
free speech not allowed here |
Dragon Emperor
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Posted - 2003.09.03 16:06:00 -
[36]
Quote:
Quote:
how is it a problem?how many med slots you have?
btw, that's basic modual, best pirate modual is 0.4,(0.4^4)*254,8 = 6.52288.
tomb nerf hardeners will force those tanks go back to ew monster.......hope that's not what you want......
If he uses 4 sensor inhibitors drones will kill the BB, as was said before, if he uses 3 it will reduce it to 16.3 km, giving it les than 3 km to navigate between warp jammer and your targeting range. Nvermind that you can use a MWD or AB then, since he cannot web you. What's the problem?
yes, heavy drones can kick blackbird away but not scorpionand that compare is only for range, haven't say about insane lock time yet.
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Lartfor
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Posted - 2003.09.03 16:26:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Lartfor on 03/09/2003 16:28:07
U know... Bring hardeners back to 70% but only allow one to be active at any given time, that fixes the "invinsible tank" problem, and the stacking problem at the same time, AND makes it so u don thave to rely on just hardeners to win pvp. Also jim, How much do harders cost? And then how much do tachs cost? It makes sence to me that a armegedon that has spent loads of isk on weapons, should be able to break through your defences that did not cost "loads" of isk.
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Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2003.09.03 16:29:00 -
[38]
Quote:
U know... Bring hardeners back to 70% but only allow one to be active at any given time, that fixes the "invinsible tank" problem, and the stacking problem at the same time, AND makes it so u don thave to rely on just hardeners.
Stacking folks, it's a problem with stacking! If anything shield hardeners should NOT stack and should use more energy.. other than that, they're fine..
They are the only counter to ships with insane damage dealing capabilities..
These changes are going to send us back to the days where the only good ships were the ones you could fit the most turrets and damage mods on..
We need more diminishing returns on many modules.. such as damage modules.. and we need to make it that certain modules, simply don't stack, like shield hardeners..
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Dragon Emperor
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Posted - 2003.09.03 16:31:00 -
[39]
i assume the code for stacking is very core code for everything, so hard to change that, that's why they just nerf harneners.
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agrizla
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Posted - 2003.09.03 17:26:00 -
[40]
You're probably right, however nerfing the hardeners has a far more drastic effect on cruisers than BSs (which everyone seems to be focusing on). It's going to force me to get a BS - which I really didn't want - as shield hardeners were really the only viable option on most cruisers due to the limited medium slots.
Ah well I don't suppose this'll be the last nerf which is directly caused by stacking.... 
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Ulstan
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Posted - 2003.09.03 17:52:00 -
[41]
I agree that the problem is stacking.
no one complained about cruisers running around with invlunerability because of shield hardeners. They just didn't have the slots for it. All the hardeners did was allow the cruiser to possibly stand up to a few seconds of fire from a battleship.
People were complaining about stacking tactical shields.
This nerf will hurt thepeople who only ran one hardener of a given type the most.
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agrizla
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Posted - 2003.09.03 18:07:00 -
[42]
I think this more or less makes all cruisers bar the Blackbird obsolete. They no longer have a function in the game other than PvE - and that is limited. If that sounds a bit over the top then climb out of your battleship, grab a cruiser and go hunt some npcs with 40% hardeners. Fun watching that armour get chunks blown out of it eh? Now imagine PvP - even cruiser vs cruiser PvP 
Not a good plan, not good at all....
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Beseb
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Posted - 2003.09.03 18:41:00 -
[43]
The idea of having only one active hardner is viable. The other idea I liked was the different sized hardners. Frigates get 25%, cruisers gets 40% and BS get 70%.
Regarding the discussion of sensor dampners - someones math is whacked if they think that 3 dampners only reduces you to 16k. 3 dampners, even the stock ones (-50%) reduces a 70k lock to 8750. If that person is running a +50% boost, he only get back up to 13k (not the 17k you would expect with a direct counter).
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Ulstan
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Posted - 2003.09.03 18:54:00 -
[44]
"Frigates get 25%, cruisers gets 40% and BS get 70%."
I don't think that's the direction we want to go. We are trying encourage the use of smaller craft like frigates and cruisers in PvP, not massively discourage it :D
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QBall
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Posted - 2003.09.03 20:31:00 -
[45]
My Corp mate has an Armageddon, and was able to drop my raven's shields (was running a large c5l) in about 10 seconds. Keep in mind I have around 7k shields.
I just hope this doesn't turn into the twitch fest of old when Surgical Strike Stacked with everything, and Modulated beams did 500 damage and stuff like that.
I have faith that TomB won't let it go back to that, and that's why this is currently on test.
I do however agree that a Hardener stack scorpion is far to powerful, I have 5 Bships (all T2 bships) attacking me and I still managed to kill AND pod a cruiser before they got my shields down.
Then I had some Warp to Desktop issue or I woulda gotten away.
Stacked hardeners right now = t3h w1nn4 (I like leet speak :)
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"OMG IT'S TRAMMEL 2.0!!!!"
-QBall
And
QQ is QQ |
Exel Aurora
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Posted - 2003.09.03 20:53:00 -
[46]
I think they should change the bonus given by the tactical shield skill. Maybe instead of a 5% reduction of shield penetration, change it so it increases the effectiveness of the shield hardeners by like 5% or something like that.
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Mongo Peck
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Posted - 2003.09.03 21:08:00 -
[47]
CCP ...... Leave the Hardeners alone ....
So the guy stacks 6/7 in his mid slots ... he gets jammed by the nearest EW ship .... it's called a choice ..... but he still dies in 4 mins.
Leave them at 70% but simply don't allow them to stack .....
Listen to the people and don't nerf the game.
Mongo speaks !!
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Slithereen
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Posted - 2003.09.04 02:25:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Slithereen on 04/09/2003 02:26:58
I agree.
The best way is to make shield hardeners non stackable with an absolute set limit of hardening for the ship for each spectra.
The maximum will be 70% for all ships of all races. If you put two hardeners with EM each at 70%, you still get 70%.
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Drutort
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Posted - 2003.09.04 03:00:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Drutort on 04/09/2003 03:10:29
Quote:
Quote:
Perhaps you should take alook at the market and see that there are other modules than SH, too. I used yesterday a closerange mega outfit with MWD and tracking disruptors to a great effect - a ship with large rails and battle starting at 50km managed to hit me *twice* in the whole battle for around 300 shield damage before it was destroyed.
Hardeners are still be usefull, they are just not anymore have them or be dead items.
I aggree, though, that the damage mods of all weapons should be reduced by around 25% - 40% with missle damage staying as they are now.
Uh.. yeah tracking disrupters and a few other modules are quite effective at basically screwing another ship to the point he can't fight back, well atleast if the ship relies on turrets (they don't work on missle launchers).. now if you want to nerf something, why not start with that.. about 3 of those tracking/sensor disrupters can leave your ship HELPLESS.
Oh, and there is no counter modules to stop this.. and you guys think shield hardeners are bad? k.
hmm there is all counters right now in the game if you use ecm you can eccm if you use weapon diroptor whatever you can use a tracking cpu...
if you use dampners you can use targeting booster... etc... the only thing right now that has really no counter is web... the only thing you can do is have a MWD lol and then that still doesnt work very well
i dont know if there should ever be a 100% counter... that is kind of stupid in a way...
80-90% i would say more so...
I think that they should have 40% as the 70% now... and have new 70% ones that take about 2/3's of E as the 40% all one...
so you have some middle stuff... least E to most E
40% single 70% single 40% all...
I see no problem with stacking 2 40%'s of 1 type... or use 1 70% that would take like 2/3's more E then the 40%
I think that is fair.... those who have more slots can use more of 40%'s and save cap... those who want to have some good temp strong hardner would use a single 70% or few....
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Meau
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Posted - 2003.09.04 07:39:00 -
[50]
Imho the way items stack is buried very deep in the code, and will be hard to change.
How about increasing the cap use, at least doubling it? It would make using 4 or 6 of them less attractive, or at least make SH tanks much easier to ***** with cap neutralizers.
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Boneca
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Posted - 2003.09.04 11:31:00 -
[51]
i see no problem with SH stackin atm , but the lvl of resistance should be lower, the SH we have now are Tech1 and they are 70% , what will higher Tech lvl SH do
Miner2 is 50% better than miner1 in terms of ore per min if i remember correctly so using this analogy tech 2,3,4 and 5 SH will surely have insane resistance levels
IMO dmg mod's stackin is more of a problem than SH stackin but thats a whole new discussion
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