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Anja Suorsa
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
224
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Posted - 2013.11.26 15:40:00 -
[31] - Quote
I actually find myself agreeing with Inhonores. I think I need a lie down. |

Kazha Cavin-Guang
Reclamation Technologies
2
|
Posted - 2013.11.26 16:29:00 -
[32] - Quote
Cuci Cairi wrote: Plenty of people here have said they use them for spiritual reasons or for fitness. It is the practicality in any sense of "martial" that is questioned.
"Martial" when used in the term "martial arts" no longer carries the same connotations. Martial when used on its own means, related to war, or conflict. Whereas the term "martial arts" carries the definition of mastery of the body, or a form of sport from certain cultures. I do not see why the "martial" aspect is being questioned in this case. This day and age, people know that it is not a popular tool in the arsenal of war or conflict, but that it is a way to hone the mind and the body. For some, a hobby, for some, a way of life.
I believe this thread was not to question the practicality of the sport, or hobby, but to discuss which forms are used, and by whom. Not to question those who pursue martial arts, but to discuss it, itself.
I find it good that so many practice martial arts, it keeps us active, and our minds well. Peace be upon you, Kazha Cavin-Guang. |

Constantin Baracca
277
|
Posted - 2013.11.26 17:39:00 -
[33] - Quote
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:Goddess almighty, is there a capsuleer who ISN'T trained in martial arts?
Probably not many. Aside from Stitcher's previously mentioned points, many people require us to learn some sort of melee expertise simply by culture. I've very rarely had to use those skills in real combat, and I spend more time out of pod and prone to engage in it than other capsuleers, I suspect. However, I practice both fencing and various forms of Muraga Va every day or so, moreso the latter as part of my physical exercise.
Martial arts tend to be a fairly deep part of warrior culture, which most of our societies have to one degree or another. Even we capsuleers don't feel like being embarrassed when we go home and are challenged. "What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"
-Matthew 16:26 |

Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
2382
|
Posted - 2013.11.26 17:51:00 -
[34] - Quote
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:Goddess almighty, is there a capsuleer who ISN'T trained in martial arts?
Weren't YOU in the service at one point? Don't tell me they skipped basic hand-to-hand? |

Silas Vitalia
Nobilita Nera JIHADASQUAD
1217
|
Posted - 2013.11.26 18:14:00 -
[35] - Quote
Constantin Baracca wrote: Even we capsuleers don't feel like being embarrassed when we go home and are challenged.
Physical strength is largely irrelevant in the sorts of challenges a capsuleer faces. Emotional and mental strength are what matters for us.
That someone can out-dance me with a knife in person seems rather amusing when I can incinerate a ship with thousands of crew from a hundred kilometers with a monstrous machine around me bound to my will.
Ours is the arena of the stars, and the ships therein, and of the will power necessary to move them. Sabik now, Sabik forever |

Andreus Ixiris
Duty. The Cursed Few
3797
|
Posted - 2013.11.26 18:15:00 -
[36] - Quote
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:Goddess almighty, is there a capsuleer who ISN'T trained in martial arts? What, did you think I train a martial art to be "cool" or something?
I don't want my physical body to wither into a feeble, wheezing husk, but problematically I spend a lot of my time nearly motionless and essentially comatose in a vat of fluid. Having a regimen keeps the body fit and the mind sharp, and given that what I practice is a traditional martial art it's one of the ways I connect with my culture. Surely a man who constantly vaunts the Federation's multiculturalism wouldn't begrudge me that. Mane 614
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Constantin Baracca
278
|
Posted - 2013.11.26 18:23:00 -
[37] - Quote
Silas Vitalia wrote:Constantin Baracca wrote: Even we capsuleers don't feel like being embarrassed when we go home and are challenged. Physical strength is largely irrelevant in the sorts of challenges a capsuleer faces. Emotional and mental strength are what matters for us. That someone can out-dance me with a knife in person seems rather amusing when I can incinerate a ship with thousands of crew from a hundred kilometers with a monstrous machine around me bound to my will. Ours is the arena of the stars, and the ships therein, and of the will power necessary to move them.
You might have been better served talking about the unarmed combat. My freedman relatives beat me easily in hand-to-hand combat, but I actually competed on an imperial level in fencing. So not only can I assault ships with missiles, but I do not often get out-danced with sharp instruments either.
Of the three, fencing requires the most discipline. I wouldn't be able to do my job if I had not learned the mental skills fencing taught me. "What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"
-Matthew 16:26 |

Lyn Farel
Kitzless
639
|
Posted - 2013.11.26 19:44:00 -
[38] - Quote
I have tried once or twice out of curiosity. Some khanid variants...
But I am better at the art of trying to reach the top of a shelf to grab a stubborn book... |

Silas Vitalia
Nobilita Nera JIHADASQUAD
1218
|
Posted - 2013.11.26 19:50:00 -
[39] - Quote
Brother Baracca,
If someone wants to kill you out of your capsule, hand-to-hand skills will be quite irrelevant in an age of high powered weapons of rather high destructive capability. I'm sure your blade will do well against a high powered rifle from a kilometer away?
Those that -do- use close range weapons, such as Clone Troopers, are augmented to such a degree as to snap your sword arm in half with little effort.
Leave the physical to those suited. Your potential and arena as a capsuleer is of a much more devastating sort.
Sabik now, Sabik forever |

Stitcher
Alexylva Paradox
2494
|
Posted - 2013.11.26 19:50:00 -
[40] - Quote
Silas Vitalia wrote:Physical strength is largely irrelevant in the sorts of challenges a capsuleer faces. Emotional and mental strength are what matters for us.
That someone can out-dance me with a knife in person seems rather amusing when I can incinerate a ship with thousands of crew from a hundred kilometers with a monstrous machine around me bound to my will.
Ours is the arena of the stars, and the ships therein, and of the will power necessary to move them.
Discipline in the lesser aids in the pursuit of the greater. Don't be quick to write off the benefits of a personal training regimen just because of the difference in scale.
A large part of Taistoiitsu is about positioning, applying force where it will do the most good, and remaining calm and balanced in a hectic scenario. All of which, I think you'll agree, is applicable to starship combat, on an abstract level.
An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
|

Silas Vitalia
Nobilita Nera JIHADASQUAD
1218
|
Posted - 2013.11.26 20:00:00 -
[41] - Quote
Stitcher wrote:Silas Vitalia wrote:Physical strength is largely irrelevant in the sorts of challenges a capsuleer faces. Emotional and mental strength are what matters for us.
That someone can out-dance me with a knife in person seems rather amusing when I can incinerate a ship with thousands of crew from a hundred kilometers with a monstrous machine around me bound to my will.
Ours is the arena of the stars, and the ships therein, and of the will power necessary to move them. Discipline in the lesser aids in the pursuit of the greater. Don't be quick to write off the benefits of a personal training regimen just because of the difference in scale. A large part of Taistoiitsu is about positioning, applying force where it will do the most good, and remaining calm and balanced in a hectic scenario. All of which, I think you'll agree, is applicable to starship combat, on an abstract level.
Absolutely. A more all-encompassing martial discipline should take all of these things into account.
My point is training for knife fighting or with a staff or any particular weapon is largely academic. The overlaying philosophy is what matters if one is to pursue those things in any earnest.
But I feel some capsuleers continue to hold on to vestigal threads of their old military days, imagining they will need to be charging down corridors and getting in gunfights, etc.
Sabik now, Sabik forever |

Synthetic Cultist
Church of The Crimson Saviour
255
|
Posted - 2013.11.26 20:00:00 -
[42] - Quote
Many Blood Raider Covenant capsuleers have considerable Unarmed Combat skills, as do Many Covenant Operatives.
Some Blood Raider Covenant Operative Ladies have bioengineered Muscles and Nerves, to make them Faster and Stronger than normal Humans. Some of those Ladies can Crush a person's Neck with their Thighs.
Many people consider that Sort of Thing to be Unrighteous. |

Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
1048
|
Posted - 2013.11.26 21:09:00 -
[43] - Quote
I can understand a Clone Trooper needing unarmed martial skills or training in them but I'm always going to be more wary of a capsuleer with a proven combat record, particularly a number of solo kills, because unless the ones professing their mastery of unarmed combat decide to try and fight my starship in a spacesuit I have no idea what it accomplishes or what purpose the skill fulfills.
What is this - Microwarpdrive me faster so I can stab their spaceship with a sword?
Or is it more a case of: well you might be a better combat pilot than me, but have you mastered all the styles of Jin-Mei kung fu?
If you're a capsuleer that ends up disarmed and vulnerable that you might actually need to use unarmed martial arts then all I can say is you must be an idiot that failed to plan proper contingencies. Like having an FTL linked cranial explosive that notifies the activation for a soft-burn iteration upon destruction of a present copy. Or a sub-dermal dart hive. Or really any of a multitude of cybernetic, nano-scale, or biotech based personal security solutions that mitigate any advantage of unarmed combat training ones opponent or opponents might have. |

Natalcya Katla
Naqam Shaktipat Revelators
141
|
Posted - 2013.11.26 21:27:00 -
[44] - Quote
I have practiced zero-g gymnastics since early childhood, which is the closest I come to that kind of activity. Nothing that involves touching other people, though, let alone harming them. |

Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
2383
|
Posted - 2013.11.26 21:38:00 -
[45] - Quote
I keep my clone up to date too. I mean, I shouldn't need an up to date clone unless I screw up, but... |

Denak Calamari
Intaki Liberation Front Intaki Prosperity Initiative
127
|
Posted - 2013.11.26 21:53:00 -
[46] - Quote
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:I can understand a Clone Trooper needing unarmed martial skills or training in them but I'm always going to be more wary of a capsuleer with a proven combat record, particularly a number of solo kills. To note, even in clone soldier combat martial arts skills remain largely unused. With the exception of certain people who took it to themselves to wield a set of nova knives as their primary weapon(those things can cut through several inches of armor like it's nothing), when you end up in a situation where your martial skills would be of any use, everything else has failed already and you use it as your last resort. I can only count a handful of times when my martial skills have had any real application. Also, our bodies are so augmented already that a single punch can make a hole through an unarmored person, while our armor can withstand being shot at for a very long time.
As many have stated already, martial arts are mostly used as a freetime activity, and to keep yourself in shape and other non-practical reasons. Grahisha of the Intaki Liberation Front // Writer of Thoughts of a Clone Soldier // Latest entry, Honour published 24/11/13 |

Constantin Baracca
279
|
Posted - 2013.11.26 22:01:00 -
[47] - Quote
Denak Calamari wrote:Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:I can understand a Clone Trooper needing unarmed martial skills or training in them but I'm always going to be more wary of a capsuleer with a proven combat record, particularly a number of solo kills. To note, even in clone soldier combat martial arts skills remain largely unused. With the exception of certain people who took it to themselves to wield a set of nova knives as their primary weapon(those things can cut through several inches of armor like it's nothing), when you end up in a situation where your martial skills would be of any use, everything else has failed already and you use it as your last resort. I can only count a handful of times when my martial skills have had any real application. Also, our bodies are so augmented already that a single punch can make a hole through an unarmored person, while our armor can withstand being shot at for a very long time. As many have stated already, martial arts are mostly used as a freetime activity, and to keep yourself in shape and other non-practical reasons.
There are still a few places where unarmed skills are incredibly useful. Firearms are extremely easily detectable, whereas modern vibroblades can be made out of all sorts of materials. As such, plenty of people who need concealable weapons that aren't going to be facing a lot of firearms can find knives extremely useful.
One of the less savory reasons we are taught swordplay in Amarrian society is that it is still considered a way to settle disputes here. I did not find myself in many duels, even in my rather contentious youth, but I have been involved in duels in the past and have had to kill someone with a sword previously. Where I made more of my mark in sport fencing sometime after, I did have quite a bit of practical combat experience with one.
It isn't something I generally like to mention, though. I didn't find much thrill in mortal combat, especially for the reason I was forced to engage in it. I think that is a good reason why I avoid trial by combat today. I have been blade to blade over a relatively minor disagreement. It isn't something that fills one with a particular amount of pride. "What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"
-Matthew 16:26 |

Silas Vitalia
Nobilita Nera JIHADASQUAD
1218
|
Posted - 2013.11.26 22:23:00 -
[48] - Quote
Constantin Baracca wrote: There are still a few places where unarmed skills are incredibly useful. Firearms are extremely easily detectable, whereas modern vibroblades can be made out of all sorts of materials. As such, plenty of people who need concealable weapons that aren't going to be facing a lot of firearms can find knives extremely useful.
Perhaps. But someone doing such a thing would generally be considered a 'suicide' attack.
Individuals willing to conduct suicide attacks often have less discriminate and more explosive options.
But then again just because something is implausible doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
Hmm.
Sabik now, Sabik forever |

Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
1049
|
Posted - 2013.11.26 22:26:00 -
[49] - Quote
Denak Calamari wrote:Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:I can understand a Clone Trooper needing unarmed martial skills or training in them but I'm always going to be more wary of a capsuleer with a proven combat record, particularly a number of solo kills. To note, even in clone soldier combat martial arts skills remain largely unused. With the exception of certain people who took it to themselves to wield a set of nova knives as their primary weapon(those things can cut through several inches of armor like it's nothing), when you end up in a situation where your martial skills would be of any use, everything else has failed already and you use it as your last resort. I can only count a handful of times when my martial skills have had any real application. Also, our bodies are so augmented already that a single punch can make a hole through an unarmored person, while our armor can withstand being shot at for a very long time. As many have stated already, martial arts are mostly used as a freetime activity, and to keep yourself in shape and other non-practical reasons.
I suppose my thoughts on this topic probably come from my time in basic infantry training. I wasn't taught fancy kicks or punches or ancient techniques, I was taught that my rifle is my best weapon and how to clear enough space in a CQC scenario with an opponent to shoot him which seems far more efficient than learning an art that was a form of backup in the days when people were stabbing each other with sharp pointy things and not hyper-velocity projectiles. Damn, even if I was in close quarters and out of ammo I wouldn't try to punch or kick the other person, I'd try to crush their skull in with the butt of my rifle.
Sometimes I think people forget the martial part of martial arts and that in today's modern battlefields the arts of war don't particularly need years of skill in how to use your hands and feet along with years of training when a barely trained conscript who has you drawn down their rifle is still going to end you either way.
I can admit there's probably a romantic appeal to the whole notion of unarmed combat, like in the holo-vids where a single hero kills hordes of gun toting bad guys with their bare hands but in practical terms if you really want to be efficient, there's far more practical methods to learn how to kill another human being.
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Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
2385
|
Posted - 2013.11.26 22:45:00 -
[50] - Quote
Tell me Veikitamo, what is the riddle of steel? |

Constantin Baracca
280
|
Posted - 2013.11.26 22:56:00 -
[51] - Quote
Silas Vitalia wrote:Constantin Baracca wrote: There are still a few places where unarmed skills are incredibly useful. Firearms are extremely easily detectable, whereas modern vibroblades can be made out of all sorts of materials. As such, plenty of people who need concealable weapons that aren't going to be facing a lot of firearms can find knives extremely useful.
Perhaps. But someone doing such a thing would generally be considered a 'suicide' attack. Individuals willing to conduct suicide attacks often have less discriminate and more explosive options. But then again just because something is implausible doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Hmm.
Sometimes, however there are still a spectacular number of assassinations by knife in the Amarr Empire, mostly because they are easy to conceal in even tight clothing, are still almost impossible to notice unless you're doing a detailed see-through scan, and can easily defeat any personal armor we've been able to invent. They're quiet, require almost no special handling, and can be remarkably discreet. There was a fairly recent case where, in a crowded marketplace, a trader was assassinated by having a knife thrust through his back. He bled out in seconds, but since the crowd was packed in so tightly around him, no one noticed until he had literally drenched the floor in blood. They still don't have a culprit for the assassination.
The reason melee weaponry like that has fallen so far out of favor these days is because it requires a lot more technique to use, and is no match in single combat against an adequate firearm. Guns are point-and-click simple compared to effectively fielding a blade, so it's much easier to train someone in firearms use than in proper melee combat. I think, though, there are things you learn in sword and knife combat that you simply don't otherwise learn in modern warfare.
Regardless, even firearms are largely outmoded in our line of work. I suppose very few capsuleerswill even find themselves in a proper firefight anymore, much less a personal knife-fight. Perhaps that's why so many of us have the rather casual approach to fighting that we do. Ship on ship combat between people who guide their ships remotely by thought and who will generally suffer nothing more than inconvenience should they fail seems so clinical and distant.
I would imagine that, after so long safe and secure in the capsule during engagements, capsuleers would lose the respect for mortal combat that it deserves. "What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"
-Matthew 16:26 |

Scherezad
Lai Dai Research Spacelane Security
1351
|
Posted - 2013.11.26 22:58:00 -
[52] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Tell me Veikitamo, what is the riddle of steel? All that can be destroyed, shall be destroyed. All that must endure, shall endure. All that corruption sees shall be corrupt, and all it passes by stays pure. |

Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
1049
|
Posted - 2013.11.26 23:33:00 -
[53] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Tell me Veikitamo, what is the riddle of steel?
Tell me where I said the purity of my strength cannot be broken due to a hidden speck of imperfection?
Even if I am broken though, so shall I reforge myself with the hammer of my will, and the heat of contempt at my own weakness, eh?
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Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
2386
|
Posted - 2013.11.27 00:29:00 -
[54] - Quote
The version of the riddle I was taught was much shorter than Scherezad's. Basically it goes thusly:
"Steel isn't strong. Flesh is strong. What is the tool compared to the hand that wields it?"
|

Agiri Falken
State War Academy Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2013.11.27 00:49:00 -
[55] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:The version of the riddle I was taught was much shorter than Scherezad's. Basically it goes thusly:
"Steel isn't strong. Flesh is strong. What is the tool compared to the hand that wields it?"
Pieter, you do me proud. Consider this seconded. Your most important weapons are the ones you're never without. |

Silas Vitalia
Nobilita Nera JIHADASQUAD
1218
|
Posted - 2013.11.27 00:51:00 -
[56] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Tell me Veikitamo, what is the riddle of steel?
That reminds me of an occasion when we raided a small convoy and happened upon a transport full of Monks.
I had them brought before me, and they were asking me all sorts of questions about Trees Falling in Forests and what was the sound of one hand clapping? Little riddles like that.
Well. We tried one hand each Monk, and then we tried no hands each. Turns out they are quite similar.
Sabik now, Sabik forever |

Gwen Ikiryo
Perkone Caldari State
176
|
Posted - 2013.11.27 01:12:00 -
[57] - Quote
It's sort of funny that you snub it so, miss Vitalia, considering that the fundemental philosophy of the riddle is seemingly spectacularly Sabik in nature.
Though, I must confess that I'm not really sure what it has to do with martial arts - It seems more about the end result then practical means. |

Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
3705
|
Posted - 2013.11.27 01:52:00 -
[58] - Quote
I have often found that if I have to physically hit someone, I screwed up somewhere before that point.
Always let the drones do the dirty work.  |

Stitcher
Alexylva Paradox
2498
|
Posted - 2013.11.27 02:00:00 -
[59] - Quote
Scherezad wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Tell me Veikitamo, what is the riddle of steel? All that can be destroyed, shall be destroyed. All that must endure, shall endure. All that corruption sees shall be corrupt, and all it passes by stays pure.
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:The version of the riddle I was taught was much shorter than Scherezad's. Basically it goes thusly:
"Steel isn't strong. Flesh is strong. What is the tool compared to the hand that wields it?"
I don't know about this "riddle of steel" stuff, but my answer to that would be "and what is the hand compared to the mind that guides it?"
I was always taught that a good soldier is one who fights smart. A strong body is the best possible tool you could use, and in the hands of a master, while a poor tool will still work, a good tool will work better... but the hub of martial skill is intellectual. See the opportunities, and the dangers, and the one hidden within the other. Know your foe and what they intend, and how they will respond when they think they see what you intend, and so on.
I've seen so many glib quotes along the lines of "infantry win battles, but artillery wins wars", or "armies win battles, but supply chains win wars" and so on. All nonsense, cooked up by military branches that want to take all the credit.
What wins wars is intelligence. Both in the sense of information, and also in the sense of interpreting that information and putting it to best use. Armies, artillery, supply chains, none of them win wars without the correct guidance of an intelligent leadership.
That principle applies on all scales, not just the largest ones. An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Constantin Baracca
281
|
Posted - 2013.11.27 02:13:00 -
[60] - Quote
My absolute favorite response to that riddle comes from my sometimes friend Roman.
"When you finally get to compare the power of the mind to the power of steel, someone's beating your brains out with a pipe wrench." "What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"
-Matthew 16:26 |
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