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Have I made a poor decision?

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Dumus	Posted - 2006.02.26 15:36:00 - [1] Please donÆt take this tread as a whine, it is not meant to be although elements of it may give that appearance. I was getting bored of the usual so thought I would try an aspect of the game I have not really done since I started playing along time ago. That is manufacturing. I have all the skills to a reasonable level so that was not really a concern. I sought out some blueprints and found what seemed to have been a little bit of a nichT corner. I purchased a whole heap of R.Db blue prints. The Material requirements seemed really good, so I bought them, 11 in total. I had previously checked how much the finished items sold for and the prices seemed good. They ranged in price (in three separate regions) from 35,000 - 150,000 ISK. So to cut a long story short (new interface and system FTL) I have now started to make my first batch. It is at this point where it goes sour. (please do not say you should have checked first, I know, I should.) I have worked out that the cost of building far exceeds the prices I see them being sold for on market. Not just by a few ISK but by allot. An Example: To make 10 x R.DB Carthum Conglomorate BluePrint Isogen [you 198 - perfect 165] each Mexallon [you 106 - perfect 88] each Nocxium [you 95 - perfect 79] each The average local prices for these minerals is Isogen 125 ISK [198 x 125 = 24,750.00 ISK] x 10 is 277,500.00 Mexallon 8.15 ISK [106 x 8.15 = 863.90 ISK] x 10 is 8,639.00 Nocxium 320 ISK [320 x 95 = 30,400.00 ISK] x 10 is 304,000.00 Station fee = 2,735.71 ISK Total 592,871.71 / 10 = 59,287.47 ISK each. Now hereÆs where I am frustrated the best price in the region I am in at the moment is 41,999.00 ISK! Now I know I could mine the minerals myself, (I do for the most part) but this seems crazy to me, that someone is making things and selling at a loss. Even when I research and get these to a better level for the materials I am not going to make money. I am better off selling my minerals and not manufacturing at all. This is a real disincentive for anyone to try this aspect of the game. If all I make is maybe 5%, with the time and effort required to complete these tasks it simply is not worth it. Or am I missing something? Any comments or suggestions would be welcome as this is a side to the game I would really like to get into. I am willing to put the work in. For example I am trying to get my character with really high standings with the Sarum Family for role playing purposes, so I have gone out of my way to only use their stations and manufacturing factories. This means a 10 jump (though 0.4) to get to the one I need to use. Why? because its fun. Please donÆt flame this post with silly childish banter. I need useful helpful suggestions only. Thanks Dumus ------------------------------------
Carfax	Posted - 2006.02.26 15:55:00 - [2] Yup you have made a poor decision. Only t2 bpo owners willbe interested in those items, chances are that they will have bought the bpo themselves and make the items when necessary as to make the most profit from t2 bpos you buy the component bpos (research those to ME 10 and they are at perfect ME) and RAM bpos to cut out any middlemen. Only real market for t2 components for instance will be folks building from a bpc and since those can't be researched the RAM modules will be a larger market. Note that Rdb and RAM turn up as loot on agent missions so can be sold below material costs, if you have perfect refining and above 6.67 standing with a refining station then buy them and refine them for cheap materials. Note theres still the element that think that mined ore is free and fail to see it from the point of view of how much they could have earnt by doing something other than mining stuff they treat as having a value of zero when they use it to build from ======================================== 10 million isk to the first pilot to bring me the announcers frozen corpse ========================================
Dumus	Posted - 2006.02.26 16:05:00 - [3] Thanks. Yeah I knew they were required for TechII builds but did not know that TechII builders would waste slots building this themselves. I can cope with a poor decision, it was not expensive to buy the BPO's but now my questions are, What should I be building if anything? Is building anything going to result in the same problem? People selling below build costs. I know I not going to win a techII BPO (with my 1000 RP's ) but I would like to get something going. Any advice ------> Gratefully received --------------------------------
Mike Yagon	Posted - 2006.02.26 16:15:00 - [4] It may sound lame, but ammunition in mission running stations could be sold at a profit still. Mission runners always need ammo, especially the ones with the large guns. Missiles in Caldari space always go well too. Alternatively, get a BPO share from the BIG Deal for example, and use the weekly BPC to build a battleship. Battleships tend to still sell well.
Kerushi	Posted - 2006.02.26 19:15:00 - [5] t2 builders have friendlies build rams for them, steady supply at a good price so they don`t have to waste 30 slots on building the rdb and tech ________________ I don't DO graphics, here's a sig anyway, wubwoo - Cortes lol thanks :-)
Brolly	Posted - 2006.02.27 00:31:00 - [6] Cruisers sell reasonably well are don't really use up that much mins, if you have the time maybe bc's.
Yang Tze	Posted - 2006.02.27 07:35:00 - [7] You can research mineral efficiency (and maybe production time) on your BPs - that will make production cheaper, and a T2 producer with un-researched prints might be interested in buying them. Place buy orders for your minerals - that way you get them below market average (though probably rather slowly). Once you have your cheap minerals, you can simply sell them for a profit if you get bored of manufacturing. Train another level of production efficiency to reduce build costs further. When trying to work out what to manufacture, remember to look at volumes sold, as well as build/sell price. Finally, have a look at tech 1 Caldari frigates: these always sell in high numbers.
Tachy	Posted - 2006.02.27 08:05:00 - [8] The number of r.db needed is pretty limited. The research of T2 BPO takes really long. The improvement often is less than the BPO would have yielded in the same time through production. --==*-- Megadon CCP wanted a well known artist and celebrity to test the new font so it's approval would be well known. They got Ray
Anymal	Posted - 2006.03.02 10:30:00 - [9] If the item has a valuable sell volume, if you find someone selling them at a price that is below your production cost just buy the cheap items and resell at your price .... you will make more profit. .......
Adam Weishaupt	Posted - 2006.03.02 19:23:00 - [10] You need to train Production Efficiency to 5 before you seriously start a manufacturing/selling career. Otherwise you're playing with a constant handicap. Also, research your blueprints, track sales on the market before you even buy a blueprint, only sell things that sell often and for a half decent price.
Amie AsteroidKiller	Posted - 2006.03.02 19:28:00 - [11] You can always buy up the under mineral items, and refine them. Or "adjust" their prices to correct.
Toy	Posted - 2006.03.02 20:51:00 - [12] Do you know why ancient civilizations specialized in olive oil, wine, beer, and other such commodities? It is because with their transportation grid, you can't move 10, 000 baskets of grapes, olives, or 10,000 bushels of wheat. That is EVE right now. Here is what I mean. If you rat in low sec and mine, you DON'T want to move all those 10,000 m3 of minerals to high sec to sell them. You can just build a ship and sell the ship! Thus manufacturing is a way of 'adding value' to minerals and also using this inefficient transportation grid to the fullest. I make mallers in low sec, fly them and sell them for 8.3 mil ISK. A maller with MWD, stabs, and a few nanofibers is really safe, and it is my way of moving 700000 trit, 400000pyrite, etc etc... Then I can come back in a small, fast ship. SO, for you, you chose BPOs for things that people build on site. Those BPOs have no real value as they aren't something that people build to sell commercially. Following my model, you should look at manufacturing as the end of production stage. You rat and mine, THEN you build to offload millions in low grade minerals. If you don't like that, do this. You build to save other people time. People who chain level 4 missions well make their 50 mil ISK an hour. They probably don't have time to make even ONE jump to buy ammo. What you need to do is hit F10 then look for 'rats killed in system in last 24 hours.' If you find a place with 5000 rats killed in system, that might mean 2 million rounds of ammo used there every 24 hours times 30 days a month, meaning that system 'needs' roughly 60 million pieces of ammo a month! There is your gold and infinite ISK. You then find the best system with the best prices/volume ratio and you start by selling ammo there. Once you get good at that, then you check for 'player ships POWNed in the last 24 hours'. Now you more or less know where to start selling ships etc. GL!
Deathias Revengus	Posted - 2006.03.03 15:14:00 - [13] Drones sell well... but I doubt you will underbid me, I'm the best prices you can find :P I'll even take a presumed loss (really not cause I use mission loot mins to build with) just to undercut you out of my market area.
Sonreir	Posted - 2006.03.03 16:21:00 - [14] Edited by: Sonreir on 03/03/2006 16:21:32 Originally by: Deathias Revengus Drones sell well... but I doubt you will underbid me, I'm the best prices you can find :P I'll even take a presumed loss (really not cause I use mission loot mins to build with) just to undercut you out of my market area. I love people like you. I get free isk from buying underpriced stuff on the market and reselling it or just reprocessing it and selling the mins. In good months I can make 100 mill in profit from your "competitve pricing". :D
Erfnam	Posted - 2006.03.03 17:26:00 - [15] Originally by: Toy Thus manufacturing is a way of 'adding value' to minerals and also using this inefficient transportation grid to the fullest. ... Following my model, you should look at manufacturing as the end of production stage. You rat and mine, THEN you build to offload millions in low grade minerals. If you don't like that, do this. You build to save other people time. People who chain level 4 missions well make their 50 mil ISK an hour. They probably don't have time to make even ONE jump to buy ammo. What you need to do is hit F10 then look for 'rats killed in system in last 24 hours.' If you find a place with 5000 rats killed in system, that might mean 2 million rounds of ammo used there every 24 hours times 30 days a month, meaning that system 'needs' roughly 60 million pieces of ammo a month! There is your gold and infinite ISK. You then find the best system with the best prices/volume ratio and you start by selling ammo there. Once you get good at that, then you check for 'player ships POWNed in the last 24 hours'. Now you more or less know where to start selling ships etc. GL! Well said! -- TCSyn Forums Channel "TCSyn Casino" - IG
Caldorus Cascade	Posted - 2006.03.04 14:04:00 - [16] Good lord this is a great topic. Really informative :)
Plib	Posted - 2006.03.05 22:15:00 - [17] Edited by: Plib on 05/03/2006 22:16:14 Tbh there are still lots of T1 items you can make money on - just not a great deal of it. Play the market for the fun of it but don't expect to get rich on T1. If you can get on the T2 ladder then the money rolls in but that seems to involve luck more than anything else. Given a decent mining setup you can lower your prices to below cost. It isn't particularly good to do that because you're kind of kicking yourself in the butt but this is only a game. Ultimately if you are happy mining in a belt for an hour (and some of us are) then who cares if you sell the mins at a loss through manufacture. The OP doesn't sound like someone trying to get rich - just to have fun. It doesn't matter if you run your character at a loss really as long as you have fun. Alternatively selling below cost for a short while can drive out the competition and is a legitimate tactic.
Aart Bluestoke	Posted - 2006.03.08 02:08:00 - [18] Originally by: Plib Edited by: Plib on 05/03/2006 22:16:14 Alternatively selling below cost for a short while can drive out the competition and is a legitimate tactic. that only works if your competition doesn't buy and refine the below cost items
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2006.03.08 02:18:00 - [19] Originally by: Plib Tbh there are still lots of T1 items you can make money on - just not a great deal of it. Play the market for the fun of it but don't expect to get rich on T1. If you can get on the T2 ladder then the money rolls in but that seems to involve luck more than anything else. Nah, getting in on T2 is simply a matter of finding BPCs at good prices (not hard). And buying a BPO is simply a matter of getting enough ISK. Luck has nothing to do with it. [23] Member: Official Forum Warrior What's with the blue robots? Click my sig.
Messerschmitt facility	Posted - 2006.03.08 03:15:00 - [20] Toy you cannot do 50 mils per hour chaining BS's in missions The most profitable place to make the most isk/h from NPC's are in 0.0 belts, and I can assure you that you won't make more than 15 mils / h on average depending the type of spawn, if you chain multiple NPC's, and of course, not including any loot, but only the raw bounty As for the market, no matter you do, the market is dynamic and it's all about demand/suply. This factors can ONLY be influenced by players, and eventualy forced by CCP if they realy want to, tho even like that it's hard. _________________________________ A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking...
Yurameki Daishun	Posted - 2006.03.08 22:49:00 - [21] I sell T1 weapons, ammo, ships, etc., just below average or at the best price in the region and make a profit regularly, whether I mine or purchase, I just make more if I mine.
Yaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr	Posted - 2006.03.09 06:32:00 - [22] Here is my tried and true Method for making $$$ via production Run LVL 4's for a week, melt the crud loot for minerals Build Torpedo's Cruise Missiles, Large Hybrid Charges and Large Projectile Ammo Buy a Hauler Find all the stations in the area with lvl 4 agents Sell said ammo. Repeat We mission runners are lazy sobs, and when ammo is right in station, it can be as much as 2-5% above regional average because, its right there. Rearm and head out. I net around 30 mill a week in ammo sales just from about 1week + 3 days work a month and a half ago. Other Solid idea's Find dead space complexes and Sell the Following Shuttles (for downed pilots / people leaving ships near the plex and returning in fast ships) if its a 1-3/10 plex run off some friggates + FITTINGS, basic stuff, small guns, ammo... ect ect 4-5 BC's Cruisers BS's even + fittings and ammo You won't see massive buyouts of your stuff but over time it all goes. Gives you some good steady income. Always tho, Common sence is key. Do your research. Open the market, find an item you want to sell. Click on the view market deals then go over to price history. It has alot of information on it, but you can figure most of it out easily enough. However at the bottom there is a series of Green bars rising off the bottom of the graph. This is what a producer is looking at. These bars represent the number of sales of this item, In what quantities, when. (scale is on the right side of the graph) Use this to see if the product you want to sell is activly being sold. Is bought in large bursts monthly, or not at all. The moving Averages(20 day) show you a good idea of what the price trends are. Also a taking a micro/macro economics course might be a good idea too!
Amolar	Posted - 2006.03.10 09:42:00 - [23] I was in the same position as you, looking at manufacturing trying to figure out where best to invest my money. Heres what worked for me Purchase 5 run Battlecruiser BPC Place fair to low buy orders for minerals required in a low-sec mission hub. Wait 2 days for the re-processing mission runners to fill your order. Including mineral costs,factory costs and 1/5th of the BPC cost this took me up to just under 19 million isk cost. Sell Battlecruiser for 24 to 25 million Repeate. Wait untill you have made 20 million, then invest in 2 Batlecruiser BPC's and run the process twice in tandem. Every 4 days i sell a pair of Battlecruisers for about 12 million total profit. Not great but now that the process is started that takes about 5 minutes effort and i can spend the rest of those 4 days working on raising my sec status In short, Escrow BPC's are a first time manufacturers best friend. DAMINT-second account, this is Nicholai Pestot
horan	Posted - 2006.03.10 11:50:00 - [24] Originally by: Aart Bluestoke Originally by: Plib Edited by: Plib on 05/03/2006 22:16:14 Alternatively selling below cost for a short while can drive out the competition and is a legitimate tactic. that only works if your competition doesn't buy and refine the below cost items Or the competition just buys your cheap goods and sticks em back on the market at a decent price. You have to love the new trade skills I don't even need to leave my warm station to do this.
Aaronus	Posted - 2006.03.19 03:33:00 - [25] Ammunition sells all the time, just make a ton of it and throw your markup on it and make sure you aren't right next to a big market hub. It'll sell, not fly off the shelves but will sell. The more you make and spread it out you can have a steady flow of income coming in.
Layla	Posted - 2006.03.19 11:52:00 - [26] More suggestions: Dont bother manufacturing things that get dropped a lot as loot. It is obvious that the agent ***** will always under-cut the manufacturer because he/she gets the modules for "free". The arguments for ammo sales are exagerated. Most agents give loads of ammo as mission rewards and even more is available as loot. As everyone knows that ammo is a good seller, the prices tend to be too low to be competitive. Take a risk; build ships, equip them to avoid combat and fly them out to 0.0. They will sell at least 30% over Empire prices. Frigates, cruisers, BS are all in demand. Not sure where to sell them- (shameless plug) take them out to the ISS Outposts in Catch and Pure Blind. Demand always exceeds supply.
Khan Farshatok	Posted - 2006.03.22 22:58:00 - [27] Aye, could use a lot of frigs, cruisers etc in Catch. Maybe you are interested to deliver 20-30 Caracals weekly to ISS Marginis? Profit would be quite handsome.

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