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The flawed soverignty system and its effect on PvP.

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Levin Cavil	Posted - 2006.03.01 01:33:00 - [1] Edited by: Levin Cavil on 01/03/2006 01:37:57 It is my opinion that the "exodus" from 0.0 that came in the exodus patch (which afaik was not the desired efefct) was a direct result of POSes and the soverignty system requiring huge numbers of people to actually accomplish anything in 0.0. The focus became less on pvp ability and coordination and more on supplying ice to a tower that will do the fighting for you. In addition the POS provided a safe place to hide, eliminating many uses of scan probes and again forcing only large scale blob invasions to be effective. I believe there was a major change in focus for PvP groups when it became impossible to harass and damage an alliance without huge numbers, this had a negative effect on everyone. My idea of how the soverignty system should work: Poses have no "active defences" meaning all they have is the forcefield, this should only protect structures and not ships. POSes should NOT be a safespot. Outposts would still have a one outpost per system limit but they would only cost a few hundred mil to build and have NO SERVICES. All outposts would have say 8-10 service slots, each station service would have a module that takes one of these slots and costs about a bn isk. You can have a fully functioning station in 0.0 if you want but it will cost 10bn isk. The soverignty system would simply require you to own an outpost in a system, whoever owns the outpost gets soverignty. POSes could have any benefits from soverignty that seem appropriate. POSes would be completly irrelevant in claiming or maintaing soverignty and there is no way to make any deployable invulnerable. The corp hangar/ship fitting arrays at POSes would be used less in favor of more secure outposts. POSes then have much less monetary value and could simply be destructible, but with a large number of hitpoints. passive defence modules such as shield extenders could be installed. But with most of the more valuable assets in an outpost (such as ships and modules) losing a pos and it's equipment would hurt a lot less than it would now. This would require an alliance to actually maintain SOVERIGNTY over a system to have it on the map. There would have to be a strong enough military presence in a system to protect the assets and the outpost. Whoever can hold that outpost truly would hold the system. This also provides access to 0.0 for smaller corps and groups, a large corp could go to 0.0, find a system and build and maintain a station there. This makes 0.0 much more accessable to everyone. The largest alliances would no longer be the only capable players in 0.0. ¼_¼
Nybbas	Posted - 2006.03.01 01:39:00 - [2] and then we would have outposts in every system in 0.0 great idea! and not to mention you dont even bother to deal with the matter of someone else claiming new sovereignty over the system... they just have to shoot up your station that you spent 10 bil to get services for, while your members are asleep and they take it? great ideas.
Levin Cavil	Posted - 2006.03.01 01:43:00 - [3] Originally by: Nybbas and then we would have outposts in every system in 0.0 great idea! and not to mention you dont even bother to deal with the matter of someone else claiming new sovereignty over the system... they just have to shoot up your station that you spent 10 bil to get services for, while your members are asleep and they take it? great ideas. If someone else takes over your staion they deserve it more than you. If you want to have your very own station in 0.0 it should be something that you protect 23/7. Just the same way it worked before POSes made stations in 0.0 invulnerable. ¼_¼
Naleb Cilani	Posted - 2006.03.01 01:47:00 - [4] Edited by: Naleb Cilani on 01/03/2006 01:47:50 Originally by: Levin Cavil If someone else takes over your staion they deserve it more than you. If you want to have your very own station in 0.0 it should be something that you protect 23/7. Just the same way it worked before POSes made stations in 0.0 invulnerable. It would just wind up as a capture the flag game then that goes back and forth because the moment when the defending side has to heaven forbid sleep, eat, work, etc, the other side creeps in until they also fall asleep and someone else takes the flag.
Levin Cavil	Posted - 2006.03.01 01:50:00 - [5] Originally by: Naleb Cilani Edited by: Naleb Cilani on 01/03/2006 01:47:50 Originally by: Levin Cavil If someone else takes over your staion they deserve it more than you. If you want to have your very own station in 0.0 it should be something that you protect 23/7. Just the same way it worked before POSes made stations in 0.0 invulnerable. It would just wind up as a capture the flag game then that goes back and forth because the moment when the defending side has to heaven forbid sleep, eat, work, etc, the other side creeps in until they also fall asleep and someone else takes the flag. Thats why you should have friends that live on other continents. ¼_¼
Robotek Hybrid	Posted - 2006.03.01 01:51:00 - [6] Originally by: Levin Cavil Originally by: Nybbas and then we would have outposts in every system in 0.0 great idea! and not to mention you dont even bother to deal with the matter of someone else claiming new sovereignty over the system... they just have to shoot up your station that you spent 10 bil to get services for, while your members are asleep and they take it? great ideas. If someone else takes over your staion they deserve it more than you. If you want to have your very own station in 0.0 it should be something that you protect 23/7. Just the same way it worked before POSes made stations in 0.0 invulnerable. the gnw shoed us why things are how they are now. What more boring blowing up a pos or shooting at a station and having some1 else take it back 8 hours form then so you can log back in to do the same thing tomorow? BM-C is recruiting!
Kalki Nibiru	Posted - 2006.03.01 01:58:00 - [7] You should look at the whole picture here. The idea isnt just to keep the towers filled with ice; the idea is to run mining ops, mine moons, make reactions, make complex reactions, make t2 parts make t2 items. Obviously one small corp can't go from simple reaction to t2 item, but the the end result of all of this work is a lot of money. LOTS. Bill Gates type of cash we are talking here. So in the end after all of the investment you put in to just setting this thing up it would be a HUGE loss to lose the equipment. Running one outpost and a few large POS's can be easy for a large corporation or a really efficient medium sized corporation the problem is that eventually once they make an outpost that the micromanagement will become too much; so now the alliance is part of the project and eventually its all too much for the alliance to handle so who do you turn to next? You turn to everyone else in Eve and you open up the region, set market taxes, docking fees, jump clone fees, etc and you put up buy orders for ice and minerals and you get people to do the work for you and you become even richer. But now, your enemies are going to see all these players and want to feed on them and all of your goodies you have laying around. So what happens is the alliance or the corporation(s) that control some systems or some constellations will have to have a pretty big navy around to protect its citizens that are making them all of this money from market fees, refining, etc and now the game really becomes about good PvP skills and coordination. I know its not this way right now, but if you look at what CCP has done and their plans for Kali you can see they are going that way. Now the reason why it isnt happening really fast is because 0.0 isnt supposed to be for everyone, its tough, and unforgiving and if everyone in eve had access to 0.0 ark or crok we'd all be rich. When it comes time that alliances open up that kind of deep 0.0 space, its going to be very dangerous and even though its 'open to the public' its not meant for everyone and thats the way it should be.
SengH	Posted - 2006.03.01 02:00:00 - [8] wouldnt work.. with the equipment ingame today... dreadnoughts would make station ping pong stupid. Instead of POS wars we'd be back to the good old station ping pong except this time it would drag out longer as all you'd need to do is log on your dread for 10 mins and flip flop the stn back.
Marcus Aurelius	Posted - 2006.03.01 02:02:00 - [9] Quote: It is my opinion that the "exodus" from 0.0 that came in the exodus patch (which afaik was not the desired efefct) was a direct result of POSes and the soverignty system requiring huge numbers of people to actually accomplish anything in 0.0. The focus became less on pvp ability and coordination and more on supplying ice to a tower that will do the fighting for you. In addition the POS provided a safe place to hide, eliminating many uses of scan probes and again forcing only large scale blob invasions to be effective. I believe there was a major change in focus for PvP groups when it became impossible to harass and damage an alliance without huge numbers, this had a negative effect on everyone Think so ? My impression was that that exodus was caused by some other factors. Thinkgs like the prevalence of full gank setups in combat post-GNW and more organisation in combat, both increasing shiplosses and thus the need to make isk. Couple that with new high end toys (faction gear), and new skills. Add to that an imbalance in earning potential (lvl 4 missions best earner), and you have a recipe for an exodus in the wrong way. POS didn't factor into that early in exodus, no-one had any that early on. They had no real value yet. But you are right in the observation that pvp is getting to be more about logistics and organisation rather then combat and perseverance. We got the ability to deploy stuff worth lots, and kill or conquer it with ships worth lots more. The downside is that you need stuff like that to retain some meaning. So you need to make it hard to run/aquire. Getting alot of isk is not hard enough in itself. Moving alot of gear isn't either. But organising a big chain of supply needing to be fed with lots of isk while requiring coverage by alot of guns IS, and that's what CCP forced those of us to do that want to play around in the Capital ship age. But does that mean that pvp without capital ships, without sovereignty or the ability to destroy POS's is worthless now ? I don't think so. Sure, you can no longer be top dog bassed on combat only. But that's something good really. Those that don't want to or can't see themselves turning into this new form of pvp group will have to change their role and be content with being of lesser significance now. At least, that would be my take on this
DigitalCommunist	Posted - 2006.03.01 03:02:00 - [10] Originally by: Levin "I want to be DigitalCommunist" Cavil It is my opinion that the "exodus" from 0.0 that came in the exodus patch (which afaik was not the desired efefct) was a direct result of POSes and the soverignty system requiring huge numbers of people to actually accomplish anything in 0.0. Erm, no. It happened because the moneymaking opportunities in empire were greater than 0.0, for less risk. It happened because CCP allowed POS in empire, and empire had just as good moon resource distrobution. And fyi, sovereignty does not need huge numbers. Its easy for five people to run a series of POS and obtain a reaction. Then again, you should know this, I hear you are familiar with that. Originally by: Levin "I really hate FIX" Cavil The focus became less on pvp ability and coordination and more on supplying ice to a tower that will do the fighting for you. In addition the POS provided a safe place to hide, eliminating many uses of scan probes and again forcing only large scale blob invasions to be effective. Please explain how a bunch of structures sitting at a moon do any sort of fighting for your alliance. Please explain how safespots with cloak are any less effective than idling at a POS. Please explain what "large scale blob invasions" would have done to a POS before Dreadnaughts were put into the game. HINT: You can't. Originally by: Levin "Ruler of the Regime" Cavil I believe there was a major change in focus for PvP groups when it became impossible to harass and damage an alliance without huge numbers, this had a negative effect on everyone. My idea of how the soverignty system should work: It is my expert opinion that you don't know anything about alliances, POS, or sovereignty. Stick to what you know Levin, chasing random travellers and typing "lololol" frequently. You need more than pvp muscle to damage an alliance, no matter how big your force is. You gotta hurt things like morale. Make sure they don't see any hope at the end of the tunnel. You have to instigate distrust among their ranks. Have to make sure they don't take you as a joke - which requires a bit of mutual respect. You know, the complete opposite of everything you've been doing so far. o/ Purchasing Complex Fullerene Shards, contact me ingame.

jamesw	Posted - 2006.03.01 03:16:00 - [11] Lol at digi's quoting. -- Latest Vid: Bobbing for Xelas
Amthrianius	Posted - 2006.03.01 03:16:00 - [12] I think what Levin is trying to say is "boohoo my small gank squad cant take a station anymore with our 5 man gang to get a fight" ---------------
RangerXT	Posted - 2006.03.01 03:24:00 - [13] MOMMY DADDY PLEASE STOP FIGHTING
Gonada	Posted - 2006.03.01 03:26:00 - [14] think what Levin is trying to say is "boohoo my small gank squad cant take a station anymore with our 5 man gang to get a fight" ----------------------------------------------------------------- think ampth hit the nail on the head. -I don't necessarily agree with everything I say.-
Caztra Tor	Posted - 2006.03.01 03:39:00 - [15] It is definitely too much of a pain in the ass when even a small offline POS has 11mill shield hit points or so. (mebbe my numbers are off) I mean really, should a dread be required to take that down? Thing is that any one can spend a little time and set up POS. That is not to say that it doesn't take skill to run one, but it doesn't require the investment in skills like a dread does. Bottom line is that they go up too easy and are too hard to take down. And this is the problem w/ sovereignty. Otherwise, I like what we have.
Weirda	Posted - 2006.03.01 03:39:00 - [16] Originally by: Gonada think what Levin is trying to say is "boohoo my small gank squad cant take a station anymore with our 5 man gang to get a fight" ----------------------------------------------------------------- think ampth hit the nail on the head. problem that he left out of the original is really how useless you can make a sector to anyone operating in it just by bringing you presence there. you don't have to attack their pos... you can keep them from the belts, lurk their constellations, kill their shipments... etc... if they spend too much time at their 'safespot' for you liking you can leave. the main thing that they provide is someplace to go... and for that - the routes remain busy... and there is a lot of pvp out of that. iwho what kill pvp is when ppl are afraid to travel solo - or in 2's or threes... so you rarely end up with a good fight. roving packs of 5-10 are highly responsible for that. it not that weirda doesn't like to operate in group, it just that you opportunities for a real fight rather then just a gank are even more diminished. either way - pvp is far from dead... weirda manage to have a good fight almost every night - and in other time a lot more often then that. 2 intys chasing eachother around for .5 hour with multiple engagements before a kill... that is heaven... and even when you lose the final fight - there is no saying that you didn't have fun. guess everyone have different definition of '4tw' though... weirda don't care as much for 'teh win' as 'teh fight'... and when you focus on the fight - you actually get pretty good at it... __ Weirda Assault Ship deserve a 4th Bonus and More!
DenBrown	Posted - 2006.10.08 10:05:00 - [17] READ THIS!


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