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Varrinox
Igneus Vindicta Legio Vindicta
22
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Posted - 2013.12.09 02:25:00 -
[1] - Quote
Good morning/afternoon/evening/late night/should have gone to bed hours ago....
This is coming from a guy who is currently not in FW but will be rejoining Amarr very soon.
I have ran many corps in my time in eve, be it as a director or as CEO. All of them PvP focused with a dabble of PvE for iskies. Most of that time was spent in FW lowsec but with a dabble in 0.0, W-Space and highsec.
As a leader of a corp trying to organize the group and provide content and benefits for everyone having resources to do so is one of the main issues I encountered early on. Individually it is possible for everyone to provide their own ships for the casual PvP but for corps to become a real entity rather than a collection of individuals, pooled resources is the key.....
0.0 Corps average members makes a large portion of their ISK from a taxable income, belt ratting/anom bounty ticks
W-Space corps average members makes large portion of their isk from NON-taxable income, but due to small numbers close knit nature of W-space corps they often work out ways of pooling their resouces to allow the corp as an entity to take a slice, such as corp buying of loot at -20% jita for example.
Non-FW Lowsec corps average member makes most of their isk from a variety of small tasks non of which give a large portion of taxable income. The disjointed nature of empire life compared to W-Space makes their problem of pooled resources a hardner one to tackle, but I am not here to solve this one, perhaps later.
Highsec Corps average members makes a sizeable portion of their isk from a taxable income, level 4 missions, aside from trading/mining etc and it is fairly easy for corps to take a cut to spend on corp benefits/assets
FW Corps average member makes 90%+ often more, of their isk from LP collected in the warzone. This makes them unable to generate a corporate income to spend on ship replacement, skill books, corp assets [POS's etc] without deviating away from their corps focus, in my corps past cases, controlling the Amarr vs Minnie warzone.
So in summary....
Issue - Inability of corps leadership to easily generate pooled resources for them to spend on benefits for the corp as a group allowing them to become an entity in their own right able to support larger operations and ideas.
Solution - Allow FW engaged corps to tax their members LP gains, just like ISK gains.
Concerns - I cannot think of any real reasons against this honestly, only vague arguement is one of people complaining their LP is being taxed away, in which case they are not dedicated to the corp and at least in my corp, would not be welcome.
More arguments against - A FW corp who wants some of corp income should try and take a few good moons around their area of operation - counter - Moon mining isk generation compared to what LP taxing could bring would be pointless. And that is ignoring the local meta, for example in amarr/minnie FW area pandemic legion, suddenly spaceships and shadow cartel to name but a few control the good moons and any attempt to take them I suspect would not go well.
View this is allowing FW corps to build a foundation of ISK with which to grow with, possibley moving into other areas of corp income.
Anyway this is fast becoming a wall of text so I will stop typing now.
Thoughts and criticisms are welcome. Flames and trolls are expected.
Thanks for reading. Varr |
Hesod Adee
Perkone Caldari State
200
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Posted - 2013.12.09 02:34:00 -
[2] - Quote
How about you find out what kinds of corp services your members are willing to pay for and set them up to provide corp income ?
For example, a JF service to haul your pilots stuff from a trade hub to your base of operations. Or offer pre-fitted ships at a markup. You should have enough members who are willing to pay for that convenience to pay the corp expenses.
What expenses does your corp have ? |
Varrinox
Igneus Vindicta Legio Vindicta
22
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Posted - 2013.12.09 02:56:00 -
[3] - Quote
Hesod Adee wrote:How about you find out what kinds of corp services your members are willing to pay for and set them up to provide corp income ?
For example, a JF service to haul your pilots stuff from a trade hub to your base of operations. Or offer pre-fitted ships at a markup. You should have enough members who are willing to pay for that convenience to pay the corp expenses.
What expenses does your corp have ?
Your talking about things that requires a large setup cost and still requires the corp members to pay isk to you.
Why not allow FW corps to tax LP and then be able to JF their members assets into area of OP for free, and offer pre fitted ships for free/cheap? Everybody gives up a little bit of ISK each time they earn for the greater good, rather than the CEO spenidng 7bil on a JF or billions on a pile of ships.
I think that saying lowsec / FW corps should have to go about corp isk making via ideas like yours is unfair when nullsec corps can just tax bounty ticks.
Be fair, give LP tax. |
Hesod Adee
Perkone Caldari State
200
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Posted - 2013.12.09 03:45:00 -
[4] - Quote
Varrinox wrote:Hesod Adee wrote:How about you find out what kinds of corp services your members are willing to pay for and set them up to provide corp income ?
For example, a JF service to haul your pilots stuff from a trade hub to your base of operations. Or offer pre-fitted ships at a markup. You should have enough members who are willing to pay for that convenience to pay the corp expenses.
What expenses does your corp have ? Your talking about things that requires a large setup cost and still requires the corp members to pay isk to you.
Contracts take care of members paying you.
As for the setup cost, corps are not simple things to setup. Especially PvP corps. How do you expect the tax to help you if you can't afford the setup costs before setting up the corp ? If you aren't going to pay the startup costs for services that help corp members, how are you planning for your corp to benefit its members ?
Though if you know someone with a JF, you might be able to talk them into doing the runs for you.
Quote:Why not allow FW corps to tax LP and then be able to JF their members assets into area of OP for free, and offer pre fitted ships for free/cheap? Everybody gives up a little bit of ISK each time they earn for the greater good, rather than the CEO spenidng 7bil on a JF or billions on a pile of ships.
I think that saying lowsec / FW corps should have to go about corp isk making via ideas like yours is unfair when nullsec corps can just tax bounty ticks.
Be fair, give LP tax. Because your solution only works for FW corps. Even though FW corps have other options for corp funding. Options that provide value to members at the same time. Options that work even if a players income is from an out of corp alt.
Because I'm not clear on what expenses you expect your corp to have. All I know is that you didn't answer my previous question on corp expenses and that the logistics of moving a players ships to your base of operations is something you won't be doing because you can't/won't pay the startup costs. The tax won't change that.
Because I'm thinking the real reason you want this change is so you can skim a bit off the top for your own wallet. Not to help your corp members.
Because, if implemented, this would encourage the worst kind of corp to become more prevalent in FW: Corps where the leadership provide nothing of value for corp members, but still charge members for the privilege. |
Varrinox
Igneus Vindicta Legio Vindicta
22
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Posted - 2013.12.09 04:04:00 -
[5] - Quote
"quote above"
As for you suggesting I am doing this just so I can take some peoples LP for my own. No.
Do not go around suggesting that without knowing whom you are talking about, I have given more of my time to help new militia members than most that I have ever come across. Not to mention me being the FC who lead fleets for 7/8 hours straight for days on end to get amarr our of their latest sub 2% failzone, possibly starting the resurgence that has caused many of the old guard back. * One of my fleets was the first to retake a system in the latest swing [lasting a few months now] when we had 2 systems, Sise and Sosa. Saikamon was the system, 9 hours straight from 75% to 100% and bashed.
As for corp expenses, ship replacement for corps ops would be primary, staging POS's secondary and starter newbie packages for newbros [skill books, t1 fitted frigs etc] would be tertiary]
You can bash my idea all you want but it is a great idea that will help FW become more group orientated.
Saying it will only help FW corps is true, but that is all I aim to fix with this suggestion, im not saying it will solve anything else. Just allow for FW corps to offer more to their members similar to what nullsec groups can.
As for you saying that I should be willing to invest the isk myself and the time. On the time front you talk to me like I have never done running a PvP corp. I have, lots of times, both administration of the leadership and FCing fleets, and damn good I am at it also. My only issue was commitment to the cause at times due to R/L time constraints.
As for the investing my Isk into this, in my experience if the CEO/FCs spend their time grinding personal isk, this means less content for the average members, who want to see their leaders actively leading them and I am sure many would be happy to pay a small tax [5-10% i think would be good for me] to let the leaders fund the corp benefits they want without having to take hours of their time to do so.
If as you suggest, corps will run taxes and not invest it back into their members, then the member can choose to leave the corp. This already happens with the ISK taxes of bounty ticks and is in my opinion not a valid argument against LP tax.
LP Tax = Better FW communities. |
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
755
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Posted - 2013.12.09 10:21:00 -
[6] - Quote
Could be a good idea. As well as the idea to make the LP donation for upgrades publically visible.
However a problem I see is that not only tax mechanics should be rewrite, but also wallets mechanics that actually can't handl LP.
This can become exploitable, cause basically you'd make LP tradable like ISK trought the corp wallet. This is a major change and I'm not sure about the possible consequences.
And if we find a way to apply this change then make no sense to limit to FW only.
However the purpose behind this is good.
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Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
261
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Posted - 2013.12.09 10:42:00 -
[7] - Quote
Sura Sadiva wrote:This can become exploitable, cause basically you'd make LP tradable like ISK trought the corp wallet. This is a major change and I'm not sure about the possible consequences.
This..basic question to ask for idea like this is how will a major crew abuse this.
1-3 players barring a few exceptions will not have a mass effect on the markets (somoe goons finding a massive hole in the fw setup after its first redo being one of those exceptions).
20-100 players taking a large tax hit for the team however is giving an entity a large amount of lp to use if the isk resources there to use it. hate to pick on goons but they are in fw, they know to work things in game as covered above, they could run high tax lp for a week (don't like it there is the door, don't let it hit your ass on the way out) and they could release the funds for very some nice market schemes. If not goons someone else trying to earn their 15 minutes of e-fame and get rich in the process.
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Tsobai Hashimoto
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
146
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Posted - 2013.12.09 11:26:00 -
[8] - Quote
I like the idea of FW LP tax, but I think giving a % of the LPs to the FW Corp Wallet is not a good idea
I would rather see the tax have an effect on LP cashouts.....ie..... NPC Tax rate, instead of 15%, would be 150 isk per LP cashed out
so this would add to the cost of all FW cashouts...and that isk would just go away, an isk sink, much like if you where in an NPC Corp, your rat tax is sunk
but if you where in a player corp, with a 5% tax setting, 5% of all your bounties and mission rewards go to tax, and anytime you cash out LP for FW, you pay an extra 50 isk per LP cashed out, that goes to your corp, as tax
its pretty simple, will help pull a few FW guys from basic milita into a FW Corp / alliance, and allow FW corps to become more organized, and have better SRP, that could, mean more PVP
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Varrinox
Igneus Vindicta Legio Vindicta
23
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Posted - 2013.12.09 20:26:00 -
[9] - Quote
It's seems that the general consensus it towards this being a good idea but people seems wary of allowing the corp wallet to amass LP due to issue of it being used for market manipulation. As much as it could have some teething issues the eve market is real and open to manipulation in all other areas. I don't see why FW LP should be ring fenced.
If implemented as mentioned by some above it will allow FW groups to fund amongst other things real ship replacement program's. just because of the ability of large groups to abuse it should not restrict the rest of player base to make use if this.
This would be of great benefit to FW on all sides and should be implemented ASAP. Simply allow Los to go into a wallet just like Isk bounty ticks.
Keep comments coming! |
uyguhb
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
19
|
Posted - 2013.12.09 22:57:00 -
[10] - Quote
I will accept such an idea when i can tax the ore right of peoples pockets. and tax LP from incursions and missions. Loot as well, i should be able to tax salvage and loot.
But to be completely honest in this games taxes are just another way to screw people. And there is already plenty of ways to do that. |
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Varrinox
Igneus Vindicta Legio Vindicta
24
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Posted - 2013.12.09 23:24:00 -
[11] - Quote
uyguhb wrote:I will accept such an idea when i can tax the ore right of peoples pockets. and tax LP from incursions and missions. Loot as well, i should be able to tax salvage and loot.
But to be completely honest in this games taxes are just another way to screw people. And there is already plenty of ways to do that.
Taxes are not a way to screw people they are a way to allow easy pooling of collective resources to allow for bigger projects that benefit the group as a hole. Not the single minded im solo and everything i do is mine attitude.
Also dont be pedantic about what things should and should not be taxable. LP like ISK is and gets paid directly into basically another wallet [journal] and stacks up there forever, just like ISK. Ore and loot and tangable items that needs to be stored in a ships cargohold and safely taken to a station for sale.
LP Tax = better FW community due to ability of all willing pilots to donate small amounts of earned LP into joint resources LP Tax = Easy to implement LP Tax = End the dominance of nullsec corps on easy low level corporate income. LP Tax = Varr happy panda |
uyguhb
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
19
|
Posted - 2013.12.09 23:50:00 -
[12] - Quote
I know how taxes work. I simply choose to offer services for a fee rather than taxing isk and being expected to provide for everyone (including those that provide nothing for the group - miners, market pvpers , etc. )
taxing can be good but there is a barrier between leadership and the rest of the corp. Most of the members of corps have no idea how much isk the corp wallet contains and what isk is spent on.
"better FW community due to ability of all willing pilots to donate small amounts of earned LP into joint resources"
donate??? are you sure you know how taxes work?? |
Varrinox
Igneus Vindicta Legio Vindicta
24
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Posted - 2013.12.10 00:02:00 -
[13] - Quote
Offering services is still in a way of monetizing your members time in your corp. My desired method is just more director.
There is only a barrier if leadership make one, I myself was very open about past corp finances and what I wanted to spend on, but due to nature of FW corps, you HAVE to deviate away from being a FW corp to make any real income.
All i want to achieve is allow FW corps to be able to have the choice of taxing their members cast majority of income.
"donate" - was indeed the wrong word as yes taxes are of course not avoidable, other than leaving corp. But the point remains the same, makes it easy for everyone to contribute to the communal pot of wealth, without the leadership having to come up with schemes to get isk from their members via other routes. |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
2042
|
Posted - 2013.12.10 00:19:00 -
[14] - Quote
Varrinox wrote: Taxes are not a way to screw people they are a way to allow easy pooling of collective resources to allow for bigger projects that benefit the group as a hole.
What game are you playing? Taxes, most often, are used as a way for leadership to **** over their plebes. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruitng members for lowsec PvP operations. Newbie friendly, free T1 frigate and dessy hangar, solo tutoring and PvP classes for new members. Join our in game channel 'weflyrifters' and speak to a recruiter today. |
Varrinox
Igneus Vindicta Legio Vindicta
24
|
Posted - 2013.12.10 00:31:00 -
[15] - Quote
I'm playing the friendly carebear internet spaceships i haz no teeth but 3 falcon alts game.
If people don't like paying taxes on their LP when/if this gets implemented they can just leave the corp taxing them.
Taxes in eve are there so the corp can have a pot of money that everyone puts into and gets spent on everyone. <- in an ideal world
All I ask is that FW corps be given a fair chance at being real entities with SRPs, staging POS's and all the other benefits that having a corp income gives without having to go away from their goal of being an FW corp.
In the past I had to run incursion fleets, WH Ops and ****, which as someone who wanted to just focus on FW pvp was a ballache and took away from my time as an FC creating content for both my pilots as a leader, and as a target for hostiles.
LP Tax for FW corps = Win - Win |
uyguhb
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
19
|
Posted - 2013.12.10 00:39:00 -
[16] - Quote
Varrinox wrote:Offering services is still in a way of monetizing your members time in your corp. My desired method is just more direct
There is only a barrier if leadership make one, I myself was very open about past corp finances and what I wanted to spend on, but due to nature of FW corps, you HAVE to deviate away from being a FW corp to make any real income.
All i want to achieve is allow FW corps to be able to have the choice of taxing their members vast majority of income.
"donate" - was indeed the wrong word as yes taxes are of course not avoidable, other than leaving corp. But the point remains the same, makes it easy for everyone to contribute to the communal pot of wealth, without the leadership having to come up with schemes to get isk from their members via other routes.
well actually by the nature of the game there most certainly is a barrier. otherwise everyone would have the view wallet role just by being in a corp.
The more i think about it, the less i care if some FW guys get screwed. nullsec and highsec suffer from the BS taxing system. why not lowsec?
So you get a +1 sir |
Varrinox
Igneus Vindicta Legio Vindicta
24
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Posted - 2013.12.10 15:14:00 -
[17] - Quote
Bump, would like more debate about this and a dev's input |
Quantum Spade
Igneus Vindicta Legio Vindicta
2
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Posted - 2013.12.11 23:59:00 -
[18] - Quote
Bumping because this is a good idea.
In relation to concerns about large groups 'abusing' this; the lp amassed doesn't change, so logically the market is affected in the exact same way as it always is during large shifts of power. All this allows as Varrinox has clearly stated is for an organised group to subsidise the expensive running costs of a corp and to provide actual benefits to the members without rinsing one's own wallet. |
Jhaelee de'Auvrie
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
3
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 01:15:00 -
[19] - Quote
While I would like to see a way for FW corp revenue to be generated, I do not know if taxing LP is the right way to do it. Currently the LP farming in FW is pretty bloated as is. Things right now are no different than 0.0 site runners not getting taxed when they sell faction/deadspace loot. Yes the 10mil of NPC kills is taxed, but the 1.5bil shield hardener is not.
Most of my 0.0 experience showed that the corp/alliance programs are funded by things like moon mining, not some minor tax. Being that FW is supposed to be lowsec based, making use of resources such as the local moons is a viable option. As FW corps do not have overhead like maintaining full stations or sov fees, the need for sources of massive corp wealth do not seem to be as big.
In our corp and alliance, supporting the internal programs we have is done via the mission/farming minded players being willing to donate LP to benefit everyone.
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