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Jasmyn
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Posted - 2003.09.06 02:47:00 -
[1]
i just saw some ****er take over 400k of ore form somone..while they were mining! it happend in a .9 system and the guy belongs to an NPC corp so no decleration of war could happen. there needs to be a way for swift and brutal retribution without being blowed up by the police!
BTW : mountain dew was the theifs name. pod his sorry @$$ if given the chance.
Someone once told me they loved me. |

Tim Maser
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Posted - 2003.09.06 02:53:00 -
[2]
This has been discussed so many times before, but since there is no sticky for it or search options here's CCP official statement in the support area.
Question Why is it so easy to steal ore ?
Answer The regular containers were designed to jettison unwanted items into space or to hold loot from blown up ships. They were designed so that any player could take from them because that was essential for them to function as they were intended. Players later invented the "container mining" method after noticing that the containers could hold way more than any cargohold. This use for the containers was never intended and it has the obvious flaw that any player with a reduced sense of right and wrong can come by and take everything from the container and no one can do anything about it.
This risk should be known to all players and there will be no reimbursement for ore lost this way. Also, ore "theft" is not considered harrassment so no punishment will be dealt out to those who choose to "steal". Players who are thinking of taking up a career as ore thiefs should note that they will face a lifetime of unpopularity and unhappiness as a result.
CCP has decided to meet players halfway by implementing secure containers that can be bought on the market and have the advantage of being equipped with a password lock. These containers cost money and do not hold the vast amount of ore that the regular containers do. However, with good organization and frequent ore pickups using Industrial ships, they can be very useful for large scale mining operations.
The bottom line is: If you use regular containers to store your ore you assume all the risk. Having your valuables floating in space in an unsecure container is equivelant to throwing money on the street. Should you lurk nearby and wait for someone to take the money and then attack him, the police would deal with you, not him. The same goes in Eve. If you attack a player who just took "your" ore from a regular container in a system with a security level of 0.5 or higher. You will be destroyed by Concord.
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Krowe
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Posted - 2003.09.06 02:56:00 -
[3]
1. Way too many posts of people complaining (nicer choice of words) about ore thieves.
2. Need to have haulers if you're not going to use secure containers.
3. I someone can steal over 400K of ore...then they deserved to be stolen from. Even with an Iteron V and large expanders it would take many trips just to haul veld which has the smallest volume.
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cball
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Posted - 2003.09.06 03:06:00 -
[4]
Quote: 1. Way too many posts of people complaining (nicer choice of words) about ore thieves.
2. Need to have haulers if you're not going to use secure containers.
3. I someone can steal over 400K of ore...then they deserved to be stolen from. Even with an Iteron V and large expanders it would take many trips just to haul veld which has the smallest volume.
Well said sir, well said.. ...fear the evil monkey in your hanger...
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Jasmyn
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Posted - 2003.09.06 03:07:00 -
[5]
ok, the clause that the cans are for 'unwanted items' is kinda bs. everyone knows what they are used for: holding ore for pickup. im just saying, if there is a ship sitting there MINING with a container FILLING with ore, it should be obvious whats going on.
Someone once told me they loved me. |

Tim Maser
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Posted - 2003.09.06 03:10:00 -
[6]
Maybe 400k or ore meant how much it would have been worth in isk, so 400,000isk, not the actuall amount.
Still, with plag or vel, you'd need two trips with an indy to move 400k isk of ore.
I actually started contair mining for the hell of it after my 7 secure containers were full. I knew what I was getting into. I kept an eye out and if someone started closing in, there wasn't much I could do. I undrstood what I was doing and I wouldn't complain about a flaw in the game if it was stolen. I knew the risks and those who do this should too, it there damn fault for putting it an unsecure container.
Luckily I didn't get anything stolen, but I would have excepted it and moved to a less populated area if I continued it.
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Jasmyn
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Posted - 2003.09.06 03:14:00 -
[7]
it was actually 400k of scordite and maybe soem plag/pyro. and a badger mkII. took about 4 trips i think
Someone once told me they loved me. |

Tim Maser
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Posted - 2003.09.06 03:16:00 -
[8]
Even though it is obvious what's going on, it's still a method of mining that players came up with using a container meant for unwanted items and droppings. So in no way should there be anything branded criminal to players who open this container, again even though they know what they are doing. And the people mining know what they are doing too, mine fast this way you take risk, mine slow with secure containers your safe. They went halfway and gave us secure containers for this purpose. What else do you want? |

Jasmyn
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Posted - 2003.09.06 03:20:00 -
[9]
SWIFT AND BRUTAL RETRIBUTION FOR MY COMMRADE! and maybe some pie...oo oo and an Apocolypse ( almost there..almost there...)
yeah, i know what you mean. it is a risk. and damn ppl for their lack of morals trying to get ahead in the game. i mean..once they stop that and get a crusier or a BS...whats to stop a hoard of angry miners with revenge in mind? that could cause more trouble.
Someone once told me they loved me. |

Tim Maser
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Posted - 2003.09.06 03:28:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Tim Maser on 06/09/2003 03:31:07 At least it's not like that one lady in secure space that will ask for isk or she'll blow up your mined ore.
In a way as someone who steals ore has no morals, what kind of morals does someone have that takes advantage of the ungodly amount of room that jettisoned containers have? Then use this obvious oversight for their own gain while others work hard with large secure containers and scream bloody murder when someone takes their ore from the unsecure containers?
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Jasmyn
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Posted - 2003.09.06 03:31:00 -
[11]
someone was blowing up ore?
i see your point, yes.
Someone once told me they loved me. |

Tim Maser
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Posted - 2003.09.06 03:34:00 -
[12]
She posted a thread a couple days ago about her actions. She'd ask for a simple 50k isk or she'll blow up your unsecure container. The person said no, so she did. She wanted everyones' opinion. She felt that the guy should have given in as what was lost in the container was worth far more than 50k. She also said here cargo was full from pirate loot, so that's why she came up with that idea.
Not sure if she'll continue doing so. |

Jasmyn
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Posted - 2003.09.06 03:37:00 -
[13]
*sigh* the things people do for money. selling drugs is better!
Someone once told me they loved me. |

Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.09.06 05:25:00 -
[14]
Quote: i just saw some ****er take over 400k of ore form somone..while they were mining! it happend in a .9 system and the guy belongs to an NPC corp so no decleration of war could happen. there needs to be a way for swift and brutal retribution without being blowed up by the police!
BTW : mountain dew was the theifs name. pod his sorry @$$ if given the chance.
Now, I'm not an ore thief. I'm one of 3 people in the corp capable of flying the largest availible Minmatar Industrials. So I do ore pickups a lot. So let me ask you a question:
If 5 pirate frigates which have locked on to me, approached, started firing on me and still can't reach armor before I get to one of our cans/pickup/leave, how do you plan to take "swift and brutal retribution" against an ore thief in a similar setup with less armaments and having to wait until he opens the can (2 seconds away from nicking your ore) before you can fire?
Yes, it's a run on sentence. Has to be to get the point across.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |

nono
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Posted - 2003.09.06 05:35:00 -
[15]
>>>>Players later invented the "container mining" method after noticing that the containers could hold way more than any cargohold. This use for the containers was never intended.....<<<<<<<<<<
This is the most priceless of all the lines in that information. The word INTENDED strikes again!
This never changed in BETA. From the first day of release it has been like this. They could code secure containers but they couldn't match the size of the jetisoned cargo can to the size of the cargo hold? Or simply make it one size period? For larger ships and payloads they just need drop more then one can when they blown up if size for loot is the problem.
If it was not intended why wasn't it changed at release? Or even a bit after release? Change it now and you get flamed buy half the player base. Don't change it and deal with the other half flaming about ore stealers. CCP sure knows how to shoot themselves in the foot constantly. Always seem to be in a can't win situation, but it's been four months. Why so long to adress something that was never intended?
The time frame of this never intended use of jetisoned cans has resulted debate at exhaustive levels on the boards. It has led to countless hours of developers time to come up with secure containers etc. and further time looking into developing a system to enable ore thieves to be shot without UBERCORD coming and wasting the guy who shot the thief. The time wasted dealing with all the issues surrounding cans.
I'll tell you why it was never changed. If they changed something that drastic at the beginning the boards would have burned out the servers at CCP. Mining would have ground to a halt. People would have left in droves during the first month after having it through beta.
I love the use of the word intendedover the last four months. It's usually been used as a line after something changes. As in : "it is now working as intended"
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.09.06 05:56:00 -
[16]
Quote: >>>>Players later invented the "container mining" method after noticing that the containers could hold way more than any cargohold. This use for the containers was never intended.....<<<<<<<<<<
This is the most priceless of all the lines in that information. The word INTENDED strikes again!
This never changed in BETA. From the first day of release it has been like this. They could code secure containers but they couldn't match the size of the jetisoned cargo can to the size of the cargo hold? Or simply make it one size period? For larger ships and payloads they just need drop more then one can when they blown up if size for loot is the problem.
If it was not intended why wasn't it changed at release? Or even a bit after release? Change it now and you get flamed buy half the player base. Don't change it and deal with the other half flaming about ore stealers. CCP sure knows how to shoot themselves in the foot constantly. Always seem to be in a can't win situation, but it's been four months. Why so long to adress something that was never intended?
The time frame of this never intended use of jetisoned cans has resulted debate at exhaustive levels on the boards. It has led to countless hours of developers time to come up with secure containers etc. and further time looking into developing a system to enable ore thieves to be shot without UBERCORD coming and wasting the guy who shot the thief. The time wasted dealing with all the issues surrounding cans.
I'll tell you why it was never changed. If they changed something that drastic at the beginning the boards would have burned out the servers at CCP. Mining would have ground to a halt. People would have left in droves during the first month after having it through beta.
I love the use of the word intendedover the last four months. It's usually been used as a line after something changes. As in : "it is now working as intended"
Oh come on, nono. Let's not play silly here.
Why do jettison containers have huge amounts of space?
Because they're the same containers used by both NPCs AND players to hold loot items when the ship is destroyed. And it's faster to make a huge temp container than to try and predict/create the perfect size container to hold the loot. Same goes for jettisoning for ship to ship transfers, such as industrials offloading munitions for combat ships away from a station.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |

nono
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Posted - 2003.09.06 06:05:00 -
[17]
Edited by: nono on 06/09/2003 06:08:36 Edited by: nono on 06/09/2003 06:05:51
Quote:
Quote: >>>>Players later invented the "container mining" method after noticing that the containers could hold way more than any cargohold. This use for the containers was never intended.....<<<<<<<<<<
This is the most priceless of all the lines in that information. The word INTENDED strikes again!
This never changed in BETA. From the first day of release it has been like this. They could code secure containers but they couldn't match the size of the jetisoned cargo can to the size of the cargo hold? Or simply make it one size period? For larger ships and payloads they just need drop more then one can when they blown up if size for loot is the problem.
If it was not intended why wasn't it changed at release? Or even a bit after release? Change it now and you get flamed buy half the player base. Don't change it and deal with the other half flaming about ore stealers. CCP sure knows how to shoot themselves in the foot constantly. Always seem to be in a can't win situation, but it's been four months. Why so long to adress something that was never intended?
The time frame of this never intended use of jetisoned cans has resulted debate at exhaustive levels on the boards. It has led to countless hours of developers time to come up with secure containers etc. and further time looking into developing a system to enable ore thieves to be shot without UBERCORD coming and wasting the guy who shot the thief. The time wasted dealing with all the issues surrounding cans.
I'll tell you why it was never changed. If they changed something that drastic at the beginning the boards would have burned out the servers at CCP. Mining would have ground to a halt. People would have left in droves during the first month after having it through beta.
I love the use of the word intendedover the last four months. It's usually been used as a line after something changes. As in : "it is now working as intended"
Oh come on, nono. Let's not play silly here.
Why do jettison containers have huge amounts of space?
Because they're the same containers used by both NPCs AND players to hold loot items when the ship is destroyed. And it's faster to make a huge temp container than to try and predict/create the perfect size container to hold the loot. Same goes for jettisoning for ship to ship transfers, such as industrials offloading munitions for combat ships away from a station.
And when have you ever looted 27k m3 of stuff Jash?
Are you playing sarcastic or silly? I respect just about everything you say on these boards and wish you would have responded to one of Veruna's "LEAVE THE GAME " posts. Your style of writing really would have placed a nice touch there.
The words never intended are serious ones, warranting emmidiate attention. The time dealing with and coding all the crap to deal with the situation could have been used to change this very early on if it was never intended.
It just seems it's easier to change the writing later and say it was never intended.
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Veruna Caseti
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Posted - 2003.09.06 06:06:00 -
[18]
Quote: I'll tell you why it was never changed. If they changed something that drastic at the beginning the boards would have burned out the servers at CCP. Mining would have ground to a halt. People would have left in droves during the first month after having it through beta.
No, it wasn't changed because there's no need to change it.
Container mining is the result of player innovation. It was never intended, but it's a perfectly valid tactic - if you accept the risk of ore thieves making away with your goods. Simple as that.
I don't necessarily agree with the situation, but I don't work for CCP and neither do you. =)
Veruna Caseti Ishukone |

Jash Illian
|
Posted - 2003.09.06 06:16:00 -
[19]
Quote: And when have you ever looted 27k m3 of stuff Jash?
Are you playing sarcastic or silly? I respect just about everything you say on these boards and wish you would have responded to one of Veruna's "LEAVE THE GAME " posts. Your style of writing really would have placed a nice touch there.
The words never intended are serious ones, warranting emmidiate attention. The time dealing with and coding all the crap to deal with the situation could have been used to change this very early on if it was never intended.
It just seems it's easier to change the writing later and say it was never intended.
Erm, Kwai and Major Gormur dropped an extreme amount of loot when we killed their ships at the end of phase 6. I could only fit 1 Cataclysm V in my ship. The smartbombs, guns and other stuff were out of the question.
Or did you forget that:
1) Modules/Weapons used to take up much more volume.
2) All items, equipped and in the cargo hold, used to survive ship destruction.
How much loot, at the old m3 values, would a Titan drop if the full cargo survived? Hell, how much loot would a Titan drop with a full hold + equipment?
27km3 doesn't seem that far fetched does it?
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |

Othnark
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Posted - 2003.09.06 08:12:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Othnark on 06/09/2003 08:16:15
Quote: I undrstood what I was doing and I wouldn't complain about a flaw in the game if it was stolen.
When are people going to understand, IT ISNT A FLAW IN THE GAME. Stuffing way to much volume during mining in a jettisoned container - that was never intended. Read the above post from the official support page. -Othnark
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Jasmyn
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Posted - 2003.09.06 08:50:00 -
[21]
Quote:
Quote: i just saw some ****er take over 400k of ore form somone..while they were mining! it happend in a .9 system and the guy belongs to an NPC corp so no decleration of war could happen. there needs to be a way for swift and brutal retribution without being blowed up by the police!
BTW : mountain dew was the theifs name. pod his sorry @$$ if given the chance.
Now, I'm not an ore thief. I'm one of 3 people in the corp capable of flying the largest availible Minmatar Industrials. So I do ore pickups a lot. So let me ask you a question:
If 5 pirate frigates which have locked on to me, approached, started firing on me and still can't reach armor before I get to one of our cans/pickup/leave, how do you plan to take "swift and brutal retribution" against an ore thief in a similar setup with less armaments and having to wait until he opens the can (2 seconds away from nicking your ore) before you can fire?
Yes, it's a run on sentence. Has to be to get the point across.
depends on the pirates shooting at you? me? i pack more of a punch than an angel raider. or even 4 angel mauraders. Neutrons blasters and antimatter stacked with several mods..they work my friend..they work fast.
Someone once told me they loved me. |

Jash Illian
|
Posted - 2003.09.06 12:20:00 -
[22]
Quote:
Quote:
Quote: i just saw some ****er take over 400k of ore form somone..while they were mining! it happend in a .9 system and the guy belongs to an NPC corp so no decleration of war could happen. there needs to be a way for swift and brutal retribution without being blowed up by the police!
BTW : mountain dew was the theifs name. pod his sorry @$$ if given the chance.
Now, I'm not an ore thief. I'm one of 3 people in the corp capable of flying the largest availible Minmatar Industrials. So I do ore pickups a lot. So let me ask you a question:
If 5 pirate frigates which have locked on to me, approached, started firing on me and still can't reach armor before I get to one of our cans/pickup/leave, how do you plan to take "swift and brutal retribution" against an ore thief in a similar setup with less armaments and having to wait until he opens the can (2 seconds away from nicking your ore) before you can fire?
Yes, it's a run on sentence. Has to be to get the point across.
depends on the pirates shooting at you? me? i pack more of a punch than an angel raider. or even 4 angel mauraders. Neutrons blasters and antimatter stacked with several mods..they work my friend..they work fast.
So you're saying that while mining....in high sec space...you give up a mining laser...
for a single turret to kill an ore thief?
Anyone here believe that one?
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |

Alexia Te'Len
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Posted - 2003.09.06 12:24:00 -
[23]
Ore Thief here (Well, someone that holds Ore to ransom....my cargo hold can't exactly hold a profitable amount of stolen goods, so...eh), experience, hunted, hated.
But you know what?
If you're Mining away in a Battleship, or top-end Cruiser, and you're using un-secure, "newbie" cargo holders...you should be targeted, you should be stolen from.
If you're doing that, then you don't need the money.
After all, you'll have more ISK than brains.
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Carbon
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Posted - 2003.09.06 12:31:00 -
[24]
Quote: Ore Thief here (Well, someone that holds Ore to ransom....my cargo hold can't exactly hold a profitable amount of stolen goods, so...eh), experience, hunted, hated.
But you know what?
If you're Mining away in a Battleship, or top-end Cruiser, and you're using un-secure, "newbie" cargo holders...you should be targeted, you should be stolen from.
If you're doing that, then you don't need the money.
After all, you'll have more ISK than brains.
Calculate how many secure containers a mining battleship would need to function for just one hour. Do that, and then apologise :) (giant and huge are not currently secure and so cannot count yet).
Also, you seem to think that a player with a battleship has fewer rights that one with a smaller ship? You imply that a new player in, say, a probe shouldn't be stolen from... yet these are the players most affected by this sanctioned exploit.
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.09.06 12:48:00 -
[25]
Quote:
Quote: Ore Thief here (Well, someone that holds Ore to ransom....my cargo hold can't exactly hold a profitable amount of stolen goods, so...eh), experience, hunted, hated.
But you know what?
If you're Mining away in a Battleship, or top-end Cruiser, and you're using un-secure, "newbie" cargo holders...you should be targeted, you should be stolen from.
If you're doing that, then you don't need the money.
After all, you'll have more ISK than brains.
Calculate how many secure containers a mining battleship would need to function for just one hour. Do that, and then apologise :) (giant and huge are not currently secure and so cannot count yet).
Also, you seem to think that a player with a battleship has fewer rights that one with a smaller ship? You imply that a new player in, say, a probe shouldn't be stolen from... yet these are the players most affected by this sanctioned exploit.
Well let's see, the bship pilot can either:
1) Use expanders and mini-haul for himself (2 of the bship pilots in my corp do this if nobody is availible to haul)
2) Have a hauler.
I've had downtime hauling for one of the bship miners using a Mammoth. That's with him using 8 CU Vapors. And me having to take 1 jump before reaching the offload point.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |

Alexia Te'Len
|
Posted - 2003.09.06 12:56:00 -
[26]
Quote:
Calculate how many secure containers a mining battleship would need to function for just one hour. Do that, and then apologise :) (giant and huge are not currently secure and so cannot count yet).
Also, you seem to think that a player with a battleship has fewer rights that one with a smaller ship? You imply that a new player in, say, a probe shouldn't be stolen from... yet these are the players most affected by this sanctioned exploit.
Either use secure containers and spend time earning that money (Or, if you're using a Battleship, just hunt the "higher" NPCs), use un-secure containers and keep your mouth shut when someone takes your Ore, or destroys it, failing all that....bring a friend along in an Industrial ship.
Simple.
New players shouldn't be stolen from because, most likely, they're in a state where they're unable to afford secure cans or have had the "use un-secure cans111" crap shoved into their minds.
Likewise, there's no exploit here (Even CCP say you should use non-secure containers at your own risk).
Finally, and this isn't direct at you, I'm annoyed at the "They don't have anything to worry about11" cries people use when they're talking about Ore "thieves". We _do_ have a lot to worry about, we usually work alone, end up stepping on Corporations' toes and aren't the most popular people in the galaxy.
If you can't adapt or change, then why are you here in the first place?
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Tilihad
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Posted - 2003.09.06 15:19:00 -
[27]
Ore thieves are the reason i have a alt on my bot account logged in the roid field with a kestrel and some presents for the thief.
Plus unlike others i DO feel ore thieves currently have nothing truly to fear. A majority are doing this with alts and if they are attacked they know the person doing the attacking will most likely be shot down. Now if the ore thieves were actually in a man made corp and not the newbie corp then i would have respect for them. The newbie corp thieves are the ones that anger me to no end.
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Asmodia
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Posted - 2003.09.06 15:45:00 -
[28]
Ore'thieves .... i rember my first day in Eve. i had no plan and the guys how ask me to join where not online. i only known about eve, i can make money with mining. i jumped to the first belt and what i saw ... a container. well, i am an 'old' and i played elite and containers there were for loot. (27000 scordite in it)
I really was thinking this must be a container of a cargo from a ship destroyed by pirates or so ..
I forgot the right belt and started mining ...
I was jumping between base and belt .. ups a new container. i found a basic miner .. i thought 'many pirates here'.
Half an hour later i see a new container. oh 60k Scordite. i pick up 920 of it. then i got a mail : THIS IS MINE. i wrote back : sorry doesnt know this. I thought this is the pirate kileld the indi or so. next mail :'THIEF'. me : ' Sorry, i am a n00b' next mail : ' MONEY'.
i ignoted him and were going on with mining.
then ... 'threat' i saw my shield was down and the message on screen : CONDORD scrambling xxxx ..
i looked around and saw many police ships firing on the guy. i approted him and saw him exploding .. a new container : 250 rail, some attilery and a lot of items, i never saw before.
Boom, next one shot at me. 'CONDORD is scrambing EL CID ....'
i were flying back to the base and sent a message : Thx for the Loot'
result of this : 2 Crusiers destroyed for 920 scordite. WOW, this 2 guys were really hard men.
So if here someone posts about the 'evil ore thieves' i remember all time my first day and can only laugh about them. Coming on forum to whine about some Scordite or so is really stupid.
go on with ur whining . i want to laugh more 
------------------------------------------------ CEO of Spectre Syndicate - Curse Alliance ------------------------------------------------ |

Jash Illian
|
Posted - 2003.09.06 21:05:00 -
[29]
Quote:
... If you can't adapt or change, then why are you here in the first place?
They're here to whine and play injured party. Problem is some people know the only thing that injured them was their own greed.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |

Mustafa Ken'Yova
|
Posted - 2003.09.06 22:52:00 -
[30]
The main point here is that unless you have two accounts or pay for someone to haul the ore (not very easy for newbs) then ore thieves get away easily. IMHO the person that takes ore from a can should have an electronic flag put on them for a certain amount of time. This way if you have someone hauling for you, you can choose not to retaliate. And if someone that isnt supposed to takes ore, then you can open fire and destroy their ship without CONCORD coming after you. If CONCORD goes after pirates / criminals why wouldnt ore thieves be considered criminals too? Doesnt make much sense, does it.
...... |
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