| Pages: [1] :: one page |
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Coen DeTormentor
   |
Posted - 2006.03.05 12:34:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Coen DeTormentor on 05/03/2006 12:38:29
I thought it might be a good idea to bring this up (again) for the purpose of mapping the drone behavior among players. It seems like drones doesnt always behave in the same manner for everyone - and Im curious to figure out why.
And Im quite unhappy with the "New Drone Logic".
Okai - let me start to summarize how drones worked for me in missions.
Pre Blood
- Agro some group, deployed drones.
- Drones waited IDLE for my attack-signal.
- Gave the "Engage Target" command, drones attacked on command.
- Target dies, drones goes IDLE
- I fire on a new target (with any offensive modules), the drones would AUTO-ENGAGE this target.
- Not ever did the drones stray off on their own, attacking anything, except:
-- If target died, and another group was targetting me and START firing as the drones was IDLE, the drones would auto-engage the NEW attackers. AUTO-PROTECT
- Drones return to ship (using MWD), orbitting.
- With "Return to orbit" they stopped using MWD on return.
The above behavior was excellent - the drones followed the intention of "focused fire". And btw - I've always waited until most ships have targeted me (yellow) - and started fire on me (red) before I deploy the drones.
Blood
- Agro a group, deploy the drones
- The drones will fly off and pick ANY target from the group. And NOT ONLY your targetted ships.
- Have to give the order "Engage Target" for them to fire on the same target as yourself.
- Target dies, the drones fly off again at a random target.
- Drones has no targets, return to orbit using MWD.
- If given the "Return to orbit" command, seems like 70-80% of the times they will use MWD back. The other 20-30% they seem to "halt in space".
The drones doesnt stay with "your targetted ships" as intended (ref: patch notes) either - but overall even if they did - the effect is horrible. How on earth does anyone expect a lone Drone to kill off a Battleship or anything equally strong.
Pre Blood code was good - at least for me. But as we know, other people have had problems with their code.
So in course of tracking down why people have different behaviour, let's look at other things that might affect it:
- Amarr ships, never any ships with drone bonus.
- Im Amarr (obviously)
- Target Painters / Webifiers.
- Heavy, Medium, Small drones - T1 and T2.
- Hardwire implants, but only for speed / turrets.
- Installation of EVE: build 2942, and then patched up to current version.
- Same logic / behavior for 2 main characters.
What was the behaviour pre Blood - and in Blood for you people? We need to figure out why people are getting different behaviour.
Please - summarize your drones behaviour, and ships/modules.
|
Ras Blumin
|
Posted - 2006.03.05 12:41:00 -
[2]
Preblood - bugged
Blood - bugged
Bugged = stops 1-5 km away from scooping range. I'm tired of losing drones to npc's x jumps away from empire/base tbh 
I'm using t2 warriors mostly, with some lvls in the rmr drone skills.
A dirty job - Released 2006.01.02 |
Leandro Salazar
|
Posted - 2006.03.05 12:51:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 05/03/2006 12:51:36
What you describe as Pre-Blood behavior is pretty much what my drones did when I was in a gang. What you describe as post-blood behavior is what drones did pre-blood when not in a gang. And frankly I have not noticed a big difference post blood. My drones still go for random targets after their target is destroyed, and 1 or 2 still stop and follow my ship just out of scooping range when returning....
I wonder why it is so hard to code the drones to attack the enemy that is closest to their mothership when their target dies rather than the one that is closest to them. That way they would at least all go for the same. And that return thingy just baffles me. Maybe increase drone scoop radius to 2500m? Or would they then follow you at 2501m?
___________________________________
Evacuate? In our moment of triumph? |
Coen DeTormentor
|
Posted - 2006.03.05 13:01:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Leandro Salazar
Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 05/03/2006 12:51:36
What you describe as Pre-Blood behavior is pretty much what my drones did when I was in a gang. What you describe as post-blood behavior is what drones did pre-blood when not in a gang.
Good point - I've always been using drones when in a gang. Both pre- and post-blood.
Quote:
I wonder why it is so hard to code the drones to attack the enemy that is closest to their mothership when their target dies rather than the one that is closest to them. That way they would at least all go for the same. And that return thingy just baffles me. Maybe increase drone scoop radius to 2500m? Or would they then follow you at 2501m?
As you say - some people want AUTO-ENGAGE for different reasons.
- PvP players probably want drones to attack aggressors that are firing up on them, but the same agressor for all drones.
- Drone-ship, same as PvP players? Drones are main weapon.
- PvE and non-droneship pilots want the drones to focus their fire on your own current target which you are firing on. Drones isnt main weapons and should follow main weapon.
|
OniNoShinji
|
Posted - 2006.03.05 13:03:00 -
[5]
this is not a complaint, but for the sake of science i will give my experiance.
im a droner myself and ive seen a few inconsistancies.
i also never launch until the enemy has been agged and kited away from other hostiles.
my drone skills allow for a 45k range, except when in the ishkur with a drone range module to 65k
here is my experiance, though from memory, im going to start documenting from here out.
pre blood
dominix - orges = orgres would launch and attack seemingly random target in hostile range from idle they would only protect me from imeadiat threats. i could also tell them to engage but for the most part they focused on one target after launch anyway. after the hostile/target is destroyed the ogres would fly randomly to any enemy in the area (even those who have not agged) and on rare occasion stuctures. upon recalling they would move very slowly back to my ship
- hammerheads = hammers seem smarter than ogres and hobbs. they attack together almost never agged structures on there own, and rarely attacked npc's that have not fired opon me.
- hobgoblins = dumb, they would never auto protect me, after engaging on a target would occasionally get half way there and decide to shoot at a wall. and after destroying target vessel would all fly to random npc's on the level. even those out of my targeting range.
vexor - hammerheads = once again very smart. more so than in the dominix. all i have to do is pull agg and let these babys fly. they attacked frigs and tacklers first, heavy damage dealers second, tanks third and after the battle was over would automatically destroy structures. too bad the vexor blows up easy, or i might have to call myself an amarr, sit back and play the game on easy.
ishkur - hobgoblins = never auto protected, ever, they would just orbit around me waiting for a command. once given an order would destroy the target and return and orbit. thats it, no way to take out ecm.
after blood.
all ive used since blood is the ishkur, with hob II s. same thing they never, ever do anything without a command.
they do seem to not get stuck on eachother as much.
also i have to fly to them to swoop as they never fly closer than 2k even with the return and swoop command.
still, i love drones
|
Coen DeTormentor
|
Posted - 2006.03.05 13:12:00 -
[6]
Originally by: OniNoShinji
(.. snipped ..)
all ive used since blood is the ishkur, with hob II s. same thing they never, ever do anything without a command.
they do seem to not get stuck on eachother as much.
also i have to fly to them to swoop as they never fly closer than 2k even with the return and swoop command.
still, i love drones
Incredible - you've had drones with different behaviour? And you weren't in a gang?
I cant believe that they had different code for the different drones/classes - so the behaviour you are talking about seems *very* fubar.
Yes - you're right - "getting stuck" is gone. Great ;)
But for them "not to engage" post-blood is again the very oposite of what I'm seeing, but again - they have always been deployed while in a gang. Still - why the heck isnt the drone-code consistent?
Keep reporting ;)
|
OniNoShinji
|
Posted - 2006.03.05 13:54:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Coen DeTormentor
Incredible - you've had drones with different behaviour? And you weren't in a gang?
I cant believe that they had different code for the different drones/classes - so the behaviour you are talking about seems *very* fubar.
Yes - you're right - "getting stuck" is gone. Great ;)
But for them "not to engage" post-blood is again the very oposite of what I'm seeing, but again - they have always been deployed while in a gang. Still - why the heck isnt the drone-code consistent?
Keep reporting ;)
its not that i have any data to back this up. just my perception.
i have discussed this with my corp and we come to two possible conclusions that are more than probubly completely wrong :)
either
the drones/ships are coded to behave differently
or
the drones act differently according to different skills.
as i had lower drone skills when using the vexor then when in the dom and so on.
i use senturies in the dom now so its hard for me to tell. but i firmly believe that hobs are stupid, ogres are slow, and hammers are smart.
hopefully we will get a drone guide in the players manual now that turrets and missles each have one. (winking at devs)
and yes ill get some actual statistics for you.
|
thecker goodheart
|
Posted - 2006.03.05 13:57:00 -
[8]
light drones are the only ones,I've seen with return problems after blood(and they were the worse before blood). Is quite possible that hobgoblin has more problem then other types(tho not sure about that)
I normally use hob's and warriors when i use lights, which isnt often anymore.
Heavy drones are just slower then hammers, though no doubt they may behave differently.
|
Coen DeTormentor
|
Posted - 2006.03.05 14:08:00 -
[9]
Originally by: thecker goodheart
light drones are the only ones,I've seen with return problems after blood(and they were the worse before blood). Is quite possible that hobgoblin has more problem then other types(tho not sure about that)
I normally use hob's and warriors when i use lights, which isnt often anymore.
Heavy drones are just slower then hammers, though no doubt they may behave differently.
Thing is - I have not seen any different behaviour on the drones Heavy vs Medimu vs Light pre-Blood. I havent tested this post-blood though.
They all returned fine if you just waited until target was dead (because they never AUTO-ENGAGED when all agro fired upon you - they ONLY AUTO-ENGAGE when a target switched from "Targetting -> Firing").
Using "Return do dronebay" / "Return and orbit" was a hopeless enterprise pre-blood - which now has been fixed in 70-80% of the cases.
Still - the AUTO-ENGAGE feature seems to be the worst problem now - and I wonder what causes this. Pre blood - was it different skills? Different ships? Different drones?
For some of you - you got different types of drones behaving differently - myself, never. I will try some different drone / classes again tonite to see if this is the case post-blood.
|
Tessen
|
Posted - 2006.03.05 14:21:00 -
[10]
Please please please, give a us e the choise to completly desactivate Drones IA
Pilote give attack order, drone attack
The the target explode, drone come back at full speed to mother ship even if engaged.
Something else : drones should ALWAYS use MWD : actualy they stop it when they reach mother ship.
If a tiny lag provide them to dock, they stay at low speed out of range reducing it when mothership slowdonw to...
An other bug : how can we put any drone in drone bay when at a POS now ?
|
Coen DeTormentor
|
Posted - 2006.03.05 22:57:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Coen DeTormentor on 05/03/2006 22:59:03
Okai - done some more testing tonight.
Tried different setups HAC vs BS. No change.
Tried in gang - and outside gang. No change.
Tried with Heavies, then combo Heavies, Medim & Lights. No Change.
Tried grouping the drones, and ungrouping the drones. No Change.
Tried deploying drones before agro, and after agro. No Change.
They always scatter out after killing the first target - almost ridicolous to watch a lone Light drone trying to kill a Elite rat, or battleship for that sake.
As for the Return to Orbit / Return to Drone bay command - I would say it's about 60% successrate. The drones tend to halt about 1500-1600 meters away from the ship, and just sit there. You have to nudge them aboard.
If you dont use any commands - just wait for the to go idle after the last kill - they return perfectly. Every time. 100% success.
----
I just have to repeat - the behaviour I had (which many of you other lacked - see OP) pre-Blood is a *much* more wanted behaviour. Of course not with the "lets attack anything randomly" hitches which so many other experienced.
As of now - the drones are a pain in the ****. Usable - but a pain.
For Drone-ships - we may need 1 set of rules for engagement. Some have suggested PvP engagements need the same set of rules.
For Non Drone-ships in PvE situations - the drones should attack whatever the pilot attacks - so one gets focused fire.
|
OniNoShinji
|
Posted - 2006.03.12 13:56:00 -
[12]
ran some tests with my mates
seems that my previous observations were just that.
statistically the drones acted the same no mater what ship I was in. and all drones seemed to work the same.
the perception error was due to the effect the drone behaivior had on my stratagies in different drone/ship loadouts.
im sorry for the confusion.
|
Managalar
|
Posted - 2006.03.12 14:14:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Coen DeTormentor
They always scatter out after killing the first target - almost ridicolous to watch a lone Light drone trying to kill a Elite rat, or battleship for that sake.
As for the Return to Orbit / Return to Drone bay command - I would say it's about 60% successrate. The drones tend to halt about 1500-1600 meters away from the ship, and just sit there. You have to nudge them aboard.
Those are my main complaints. Surely 'scatter to solo engage targets' isn't the best AI. I would like a way to keep my drones together as a group...full manual would work, or cycle the targets I am currently locked on - one at a time - better still, based on proximity to the drone group, else return and orbit.
=======Abaddon=======
=======Abaddon======= |
Drizit
|
Posted - 2006.03.12 15:05:00 -
[14]
I usually have hammers and they don't seem to be affected much. They all return home if left to do it by themselves. I have had one instance where 4 were orbiting and scooping them resulted in only 3 coming in. I had to scoop 3 more times before the fourth came home and it never went out of range. It only happened once so I would put it down to lag rather than a bug.
I normally use them for 0.6 belt rats while I mining in my barge. They orbit and auto attack anything that aggros me, taking out the nearest one to me unless I tell them otherwise. I'd prefer if they took out the highest threat first but if a frig and a destroyer come in, they always seem to prefer taking out the frig first while the destroyer punches large holes in my shield. Maybe they are just wannabe pirates and prefer easy targets 
However, I have noticed the tendency to split up and go off in different directions rather than stay in a group after taking out the first one. Or is this CCP's joke that drone AI now has suicidal tendencies? 
--
My idea of an OS is one that Operates the System, not a complete package of every piece of software ever written.
Computers created "The Paperless Office". But some stupid fool invented a printer |
Taketa De
|
Posted - 2006.03.12 17:28:00 -
[15]
Personally I noticed a difference in AI post patch to pre.
Before I always ganged to have them go idle, that option is unfortunatly not available anymore. However they do seem smarter about picking targets and only attack targets that attack me.
Sometimes they focus fire, sometimes not.
Also I haven't had a single instance of "drone mating" since the patch and except for lights asking them to dock has been good.
Still I don't belive a single AI for every situation is the answer nor will it ever be. See the link in my sig for my own ideas of how to help drones become smarter.
---
The Advanced Drone Control Panel. |
Readis
|
Posted - 2006.03.12 18:17:00 -
[16]
In addition, if in a gang, where a gang member repairs you with armour rep drones, your own drones will attack either your gang member or his drones after they have destroyed their primary target.
|
Livia Tarquina
|
Posted - 2006.03.12 19:20:00 -
[17]
I haven't used drones long enough to see how they act in combat. But my combat drones have all gone back into the bay on command when I'm using blasters from 1000m away. It's sending them out to attack from long range that they lag in returning. My miners have had problems at even close range.
"Big guns and heavy armor what else is there?"
--Amarrian Admiral before entering battle against Jove Navy |
Linavin
|
Posted - 2006.03.12 19:34:00 -
[18]
In my opinion we need a Major overhaul or plain rewriting of the drone code for Kali, the devs already need to rewrite all the cyno generator code to fix the recon ship bug. Its another fix that should be on the top of their to-do list.
---
Originally by: Sarmaul
nm, that says lub not lube
|
Yezah
|
Posted - 2006.03.12 19:45:00 -
[19]
-Launch drones, drones orbit your ship
-To make them attack you click engage target
-When their target dies they return to orbit until a new engage order is given.
I would prefer this, it's simple and clear - they do nothing until you tell them to.
|
Livia Tarquina
|
Posted - 2006.03.12 20:20:00 -
[20]
It seems ok to have individual drones which are not grouped to attack different targets seeing as they're programmed for attack any nearby hostiles not defense. Each should be acting on their own unless given orders by you to act as a group.
The way it should go should be you can command drones to attack my target as one order. Defend me should be a seperate order. Alternatively, if you group drones you should be able to give a group command and they all follow.
If drones returned after each destroyed ship, they'd probably draw aggro towards me which is what I don't want.
Anyways drones have problems. But most of you want it too easy too automated.
"Big guns and heavy armor what else is there?"
--Amarrian Admiral before entering battle against Jove Navy |
Jnr Rau
|
Posted - 2006.03.13 00:09:00 -
[21]
My experience..
2 Accounts:
1 dominix with tech I heavy's (Praetors)
1 Apoc with Tech II Light/Medium (Acolytes and Infiltrators)
In Gang doing complex's and missions these 2 character have different drone traits..
The Dominix character with drones in group they wait till the first order to engage is given with a list of targets locked. the first dies and then they spread out and attack if another is nearby or locked never working in a group might have 2 on 1 and the others on another ship.. if not they return to me and orbit.
The Apoc character launch drones, once they are given the order to engage a target they will till it dies, then with more locket targets free for them to agro they go straight for the dominix which isn't locked. Everytime without fail.
Its very annoying given my dominix is the tanker of the pair and when your tanking heaps of damage you don't want to have an extra 5 drones on you or have your auto locking lock as many of the drones as possible when the drones agro it.
This has only happened since the blood patch. Very strange behaviour given its only happening on the Apoc and not the Domi. It needs to be fixed.
|
Fang
|
Posted - 2006.03.13 00:19:00 -
[22]
Stupid damned drones are turning out to be as much a danger to my wingman as to rats.
As soon as they have dispatched the first target I designate for them they randomly target either my wingman or another rat.
Very annoying.
|
| |
|
| Pages: [1] :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |