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Sacrilege PG needs fixing now?

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Randay	Posted - 2006.03.09 01:37:00 - [1] Has this already been discussed? The sac is still not a very good gunboat platform unless you plan on going with lower tier guns or leaving the other 2 high slots virtually empty. Zealot has more PG then sacrilege(it also still has more armor ), but now with new bonus seems like sacrilege could use a pg boost, or suffer from the same "useless bonus syndrome" as before.(just with a different, potentially usefull bonus). Im sure any self-respecting amarr pilot would have no problem trading those launcher hardpoints for powergrid! ------------------------------------------- "Det hSr kan betyda krig!"
Mary Jaine	Posted - 2006.03.09 01:48:00 - [2] when 1st looking at the new sac i had the same sort of doubts but after playing around with fittings 4 a while i managed 3 hvy pulse2s, 2 hvy launchers and a med nos2 along with a nice healthy tank. although this did require the aid of a pdu2 and adv. weapon upgrades lvl4 i rate the sac about the same now as b4 its tweak. ive gained a bit more gank than my old 3 hvy launchers, 3 nos setup but my tank nolonger runs 4eva while being nosed MJ
Isonkon Serikain	Posted - 2006.03.09 01:52:00 - [3] sacrilege is worse than before. Ison's notches
Dash Ripcock	Posted - 2006.03.09 01:55:00 - [4] The basic issue is that before the Sacrilege was a mixed gun and missile platform. You could run the missile launchers and a tank no problem before, but now she is more geared towards turrets she simply doesn't have the powergrid to back them up. Save The Deimos
Forsch	Posted - 2006.03.09 02:06:00 - [5] I still hope the Sacrilege is gonna be changed again. Currently it is really just a lesser Zealot. Why oh why can't we have an armor tanking missile boat? ________________________________________________________________ Forsch Defender of the empire
Mary Jaine	Posted - 2006.03.09 02:15:00 - [6] agreed i want an armour tanking missile boat too pleaaaase MJ
Venuz	Posted - 2006.03.09 02:16:00 - [7] 5% medium energy turret damage and 5% missile rate of fire and a 3/3 turret/bay layout is what I'd like to see. it would give the ship a good base damage output I think, but not too much room for gank setups since it's more of a tanker then a ganker.
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2006.03.09 02:16:00 - [8] Originally by: Dash Ripcock The basic issue is that before the Sacrilege was a mixed gun and missile platform. You could run the missile launchers and a tank no problem before, but now she is more geared towards turrets she simply doesn't have the powergrid to back them up. We pointed it out loudly enough in the sticky on this. It's obviously not a major issue :/ Digital Communist> The Jin-Mei are probably more profficient in training for Tofu and Noodles than Spaceship Command
Dash Ripcock	Posted - 2006.03.09 02:36:00 - [9] Originally by: Maya Rkell Originally by: Dash Ripcock The basic issue is that before the Sacrilege was a mixed gun and missile platform. You could run the missile launchers and a tank no problem before, but now she is more geared towards turrets she simply doesn't have the powergrid to back them up. We pointed it out loudly enough in the sticky on this. It's obviously not a major issue :/ Don't get me started on certain people not listening once their mind is made up! Save The Deimos
Spartan III	Posted - 2006.03.09 03:38:00 - [10] The devs should really look at how the ship will have to be fitted and how it will perform after changes before they make those changes hit tranquility... ******************** Wolven Elite Guard is recruiting - join and get ready for some awsome PvP fights and your chance to kick some BoB butt! [red]OMFWTFYarrBQPwn3d!!!11eleventy-one

Xtro 2	Posted - 2006.03.09 07:23:00 - [11] bonus or not id still use missiles. UPC - PVP'ers Good and Bad, How Do You Want Peace? Through Talk Or In A Casket? We Decide! Peace My Brothers...
Laythun	Posted - 2006.03.09 09:08:00 - [12] wait.. PG for what weapons exactly..???? i currently have 4 focus med pulse II (better tracking etc) 2 med nos afb II web scram 1x tracking disrupter (i think, im at work) med rep II 2x adaptive nano II 800mm plate (or 400mm) energized thermic II where can i petition the ISD member that messed with my sig for no reason?
Darwinia	Posted - 2006.03.09 09:16:00 - [13] Agreed.. All the Sacrilege needed was another missile hardpoint and it would have made a damn fine Amarr version of the Cerberus. Like it is now, it's just a very watered down version of the Zealot and a very expensive paper-weight. ------------------------ I don't believe in sigs.
Bellac	Posted - 2006.03.09 09:22:00 - [14] This is exactly the same problem that applies to all the black hulled amarr combat ships that I have flown. Malediction and Vengeance both suffer from this same problems and as such are considered a second rate versions of their gold hulled counterparts. As for increased sheild / reduced armour, this is just a joke on a ship which suffers so much shield nerf when using tech 2 beams. (ok its unlikely you would fit beams on a malediction, but thats not my point) If these ships are to keep their sheild/armour balance then these ships need a bonus to reduce the effect of the gleam crystal negative sheild bonus. The Anathema suffers from low cpu and PG when you consider what specialised equipment needs fitting (I think all covert ops suffer in the same way) but there is no alternative here.
Randay	Posted - 2006.03.09 09:46:00 - [15] Originally by: Laythun wait.. PG for what weapons exactly..???? heavy pulse or heavy beams. leaves little to no pg for 2 heavy launchers or 2 medium nos. As I said in the opening post you could go with junker guns and have enough pg, but then why bother at all with the sac when the zealot has more pg(enough for 4 heavy pulse, medium nos and the usual other bits) and just as many turret slots, plus a rof bonus. basically the old nos setup is useless now that there is no missile rof bonus, and the new turret setups fall short of usefullness due to zealot just being the better platform for the same job. Good try by ccp to fix the sacrilege, but there are still some issues. ------------------------------------------- "Det hSr kan betyda krig!"
LUKEC	Posted - 2006.03.09 09:54:00 - [16] There is enough pg. Look at deimos if you think you don't have enough. It has... 5 guns and mwd to fit... and still like 175 pg less. Originally by: Commander Nikolas People like Lukec are the problem and they know it. Shin Ra's Raven has 4x WCS, Lukec's Dominix has 5x WCS & Ishtar has 2x WCS. Antipiracy is causing brain damage
Erik Pathfinder	Posted - 2006.03.09 10:06:00 - [17] Originally by: Darwinia Agreed.. All the Sacrilege needed was another missile hardpoint and it would have made a damn fine Amarr version of the Cerberus. Like it is now, it's just a very watered down version of the Zealot and a very expensive paper-weight. I agree with this post in it's entirety. I am a cerberus pilot and would gladly train to use a missile oriented sacrilege just so i can try the same idea with an armor tank ---------------
Randay	Posted - 2006.03.09 10:11:00 - [18] Originally by: LUKEC There is enough pg. Look at deimos if you think you don't have enough. It has... 5 guns and mwd to fit... and still like 175 pg less. Amarr ships are all heavy on pg, they mostly have enough pg to fit full rack of guns with tank. Gallente ships all seem to have a pg problem(I wouldnt know, but I hear about it a lot). But that really has no bearing on this issue, the fact is that CCPs bonus swap on the Sacrilege is ineffective because PG was not adjusted for the switch from missileboat to gunboat. ------------------------------------------- "Det hSr kan betyda krig!"
Laythun	Posted - 2006.03.09 10:13:00 - [19] Originally by: Randay Originally by: Laythun wait.. PG for what weapons exactly..???? heavy pulse or heavy beams. leaves little to no pg for 2 heavy launchers or 2 medium nos. As I said in the opening post you could go with junker guns and have enough pg, but then why bother at all with the sac when the zealot has more pg(enough for 4 heavy pulse, medium nos and the usual other bits) and just as many turret slots, plus a rof bonus. basically the old nos setup is useless now that there is no missile rof bonus, and the new turret setups fall short of usefullness due to zealot just being the better platform for the same job. Good try by ccp to fix the sacrilege, but there are still some issues. BUT ITS NOT A ZEALOT! its different, and 6 highs gives a good nos/laser setup. and dont underestinmate focused pulse. there not 'junk' as any seasoned pvp'err will tell you. they just take more skill to use. its doesnt need more PG, or then it WILL just be anotherr zealot in disguise, more so than it already is. Heavy pulse II's arnt for this ship. ALTHOUGH if u want to fit them then fit FOUR like the zealot does. dont expect to get 4 heavy pule and 2 launchers cos it aint gonna happen. where can i petition the ISD member that messed with my sig for no reason?
Aragor	Posted - 2006.03.09 19:05:00 - [20] So far I've found the changes in the Sac to be good, although I'm speaking from a PvE perspective and not PvP. I used to love the "neatness" factor of the old Sac, running 3 medium lasers and 3 heavy launchers with a damage mod for each class (with arablast-assaults it was the closest thing I've seen yet to an Amarr missle boat). I would modify the lasers (beam vs pulse) and launchers (heavy vs assault) depending on the mission. Now I find the Sac to be easier to fit, at least in terms of only needing to maximize one type of weapon system, with missles now taking a support role. Same as a Zealot but weaker you say?.....well yea, in ways, but much more versatile especially for missions. And I find plenty of powergrid to make some nice setups, but for some you have to be able to think "outside of the box." My latest Level 3 & 4 Mission Sac: Highs: 4 x Hvy Beam II 1 x Arablast Hvy Launcher 1 x Arablast Assault Launcher Mids: 1 x 10mn AbII 1 x Webber 2 x Cap Recharger II Lows: 2 x Small Armor Repper II 1 x Thermic Hardener II 1 x Kinetic Hardener II 1 x Energized Adaptive Nano II Drones: 3 x T2 scouts The key to this setup is that by sacrificing a low slot to replace a Medium repper with 2 small reppers, you open up alot more powergrid (173MW vs 2x6MW), and the 2 small reppers repair the same amount with the same energy use but are more efficient in that you are reparing with a faster cycle time (with my skills one of the reppers is kicking in every 2 secs). The resists with this setup are: 77% EM, 89% Expl, 90% Kinetic, 83% Thermal. I use this as a universal resist setup but surely it can be modified for tougher or race-specicic tasks. If you are comfortable with dropping the Adaptive Nano (no prob for any Level-3 mission and many Lvl-4's) you can easily fit a heat sink II in that low slot. Per Quick-Fit, the skill & bonus-factored DPS for this setup (using MF crystals) is 212 with the Nano and 243 with the heat sink II (not corrected for target resists). Depending on the mission and rat types you can also drop a hardener and add a second Heat Sink II (277 DPS). The reppers will run forever with everything running/firing, except for the Ab....it will run for quite a while with the Ab as well, but usually I just use my Ab for travel or to set up a good range to target - rarely would I be running constant Ab as well as everything else. Pulses would make an interesting alternative setup and would open up more powergrid to swap out the assault launcher for another heavy launcher, but I like the range of the beams plus the heavy launcher (low-bounty frigs pop in 1 shot at 60km from the beams alone), and the assault launcher is awsome along with the drones for close, fast frigs. Once webbed any ship pops fast with even the heavy beams hitting well. This setup performs really well at long range, has the speed to get in close, the tank to survive while in close and the combo of web and weapons to kill well while in close. I hope that helps some.....my skills are relatively high but I have no probs with the powergrid and now the damage output is very adequate with a versatility that few ships have. Again, I'm speaking of PvE, but I sure some of the principals will work in PvP setups. I have no complaints and just loves my Sac (<---hmm...perhaps could have worded that better)

Randay	Posted - 2006.03.09 19:49:00 - [21] Originally by: Aragor truncated... Yes, your setup only fits becase you sacrifice a low slot, the same effect would be had by putting an RCU and a medium armor repairer. Originally by: Laythun BUT ITS NOT A ZEALOT! I agree, Its inferior to a zealot in every way. The fact that its turning out to be the same type of ship as the zealot isnt the issue. The issue at hand is that the Sacrilege still hasnt been improved despite ccps efforts. The lovin it got fell a little short. ------------------------------------------- "Det hSr kan betyda krig!"
Aragor	Posted - 2006.03.09 23:20:00 - [22] Originally by: Randay Originally by: Aragor truncated... Yes, your setup only fits becase you sacrifice a low slot, the same effect would be had by putting an RCU and a medium armor repairer. Not really....you're not thinking outside the box. Popping an RCU into an open slot is the simple, traditional way to increase powergrid. In the setup I listed above, this does not work - the Medium repper II doesn't fit, now due to insufficient CPU. You still need to lose a weapon or step down in weapon class to fit everything. My point is that there are non-conventional ways to still get a nice setup with the Sac. Originally by: Laythun BUT ITS NOT A ZEALOT! I agree, Its inferior to a zealot in every way. The fact that its turning out to be the same type of ship as the zealot isnt the issue. The issue at hand is that the Sacrilege still hasnt been improved despite ccps efforts. The lovin it got fell a little short. I won't disagree that the lovin' did fall short, but it's soooo wrong to say that the Sac is inferior to the zealot in "every way", and just as wrong to say that it's just turning into a poor-excuse for a Zealot. Well, duh...of course if you use it in the same way. The forums have been screaming for a while now against the Khanid setups... bonuses for 2 different weapon systems. CCP simply did what everyone asked for....gave the Sac all of it's bonuses for turrets. Now maybe alot of people really wanted better bonuses for both weap systems, or really to make the Sac into a better NOS/Missle spammer. Granted having 2 missle bonuses, an extra launcher and a NOS bonus would make a nice and unique setup. So, we just didn't get the specific improvements people wanted. On paper it may not seem like the changes make it better, but from my experience with it (again NPC's and missions only), it definitely feels better when you start to stretch out it's versatility. Close-range, you can fit the same top-end damage dealing medium beams as the zealot, PLUS have 2 launchers for frigs or NOS for PvP (admittedly I haven't tried playing with NOS setups yet), AND you have 3 T2 drones. Long range, you get a substantial bonus to weapon range - again throw on 2 heavy launchers and you can deal some very good damage at 50+ km, and with an AB to keep that range you will beat on a close-setup ship pretty well by the time it can MWD to you. Hey, I'm not saying that the Zealot isn't better for PvP.....not saying that the Zealot won't PWN a Sac in 1-on-1, but overall the Sac is NOT inferior to the Zealot "in every way". I've used both on the test server, with alot of setups, and I can say that for missions at least I have no plans to use a Zealot even if the price were actually fair (= a totally-intended dig on price-gougers).
Sergej	Posted - 2006.03.09 23:30:00 - [23] I guess I'm one of the few sacrilige fans, but I really do like this ship. It is probably the best tank in the game due to a combination of cap/bonus/signature radius. it runs a tank that tanks 400 dps for a very meaningful amount of time. it can keep a target tackled while doing that. It can eventually kill that target, since it's in no hurry... Sure it doesn't have the fun factor of a 400 dps gank ship, but 400 dps tank ship does have advantages.
Aragor	Posted - 2006.03.09 23:31:00 - [24] Edited by: Aragor on 09/03/2006 23:32:59 Edited by: Aragor on 09/03/2006 23:31:19 damn double posts
Aragor	Posted - 2006.03.09 23:31:00 - [25] Oops...should have read your post more carefully, and maybe I would have been less verbose Originally by: Randay Has this already been discussed? The sac is still not a very good gunboat platform unless you plan on going with lower tier guns or leaving the other 2 high slots virtually empty. Zealot has more PG then sacrilege(it also still has more armor ), but now with new bonus seems like sacrilege could use a pg boost, or suffer from the same "useless bonus syndrome" as before.(just with a different, potentially usefull bonus). I've already given a setup that takes care of all of this. Im sure any self-respecting amarr pilot would have no problem trading those launcher hardpoints for powergrid! I would not disagree there....more powergrid would of course mean more slots freed up, and/or even better mods. How about we compromise with CCP...instead of giving up both launcher points how about more powergrid AND keep 1 mount for another laser
Nessa Aldeen	Posted - 2006.03.11 13:37:00 - [26] I find the new bonus works alright for me but perhaps JUST a little bit more powergrid would o just fine.
Yaman	Posted - 2006.03.15 22:30:00 - [27] Edited by: Yaman on 15/03/2006 22:35:34 Edited by: Yaman on 15/03/2006 22:32:20 uh... i've always been a fan of the sacrilege and let me tell you I've always felt that it was just as good as the zealot. WHY? How proposterous! LOL. It's a better tank, dur. So don't go saying the zealot is better in everyway. Now my thinking is to turn the thing into a tank/sniper...It's pretty decent with speed, and then a ABII on it.... think about a heavy beamII. you've now got a bad arse tank and a decent range sniper. Little ships that come up to it, use missles/drones. Little ships can't do the dmg to take out the sacrilege. It'll take a zealot which now won't have the range. Or a battleship which would have the range, but not the tracking now. It's all in how you use the ships. The Zealot could break the Sacrilege's tank and the Sacrilege can NOW break the Zealot's. Before I agree the firepower was weak. HOWEVER I loved the missles. I had tech2 small and tech2 heavy on the thing...was so cute spitting out small missles every 3 or so seconds. You could get a steady stream of missles if you timed the launches right. I wish it had another missle slot or something. Bottom line: I agree it now needs a little more powergrid or it needed an extra missle launcher hardpoint OR a dmg and RoF bonus.


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