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Smurf Two
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Posted - 2003.09.08 10:55:00 -
[1]
Make the exit point from a jump gate totally random. This will allow pirates to still camp the entrances rather then exits. And enable the attackers to not die in heaps due to not having control over their ships. Also pirates (or other corps that blockade) will still have an edge because warping in will create a bit of lag also. But not as much as loading an entire system? Good idea? Bad? Bump and express opinion!
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Reah
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Posted - 2003.09.08 10:58:00 -
[2]
better than curent :)
and its pretty mutch what i would guess will happen
tho, time will tell :)
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Killash Larz
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Posted - 2003.09.08 10:59:00 -
[3]
Sounds like a really good yet simple idea to me! Give people a fighting chance and let the re-group etc. 
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Carbon
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Posted - 2003.09.08 11:02:00 -
[4]
Makes sense.. except: Gangs should jump in at the same point. Otherwise random is peachy.
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CT BadIronTree
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Posted - 2003.09.08 11:05:00 -
[5]
yes i agree gangs sould auto jump all together also.....
if they fix the-put the formation and we dont have eny control of the ship we sould all jump all warp together
============================================
Colossus Technologies
The first and oldest corp in eve!
BadIronTree Head of Production
CSM Chat Log September 25, 2003:
Fuhry> Some things we simply cannot test, and therefore we just put it on Tranq. cross our fingers and then get into panic mode.
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playing (or beta testing)since Sat, 2 Nov 2002 16:06 (beta 5)
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Erty
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Posted - 2003.09.08 11:05:00 -
[6]
No, it should be gate to gate. According to the background fiction that's how it works...
Hmm.
This is my signature. |
agrizla
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Posted - 2003.09.08 11:08:00 -
[7]
I quite like this idea as it'll do something else that people may not have thought of.
It'll make the use of insta-jump bookmarks more risky. As the location you jump-in is random then unless you warp to a known point first then your insta-jump bookmark may not work Now OK on known troublespots I'd guess most people do this anyway, but I see loads of people saying they use bookmarks to speed up travelling time (I do this a bit too) - this would increase the risk of :
a) being jumped at a gate;
b) some gates actually taking longer than if you hadn't bookmarked them.
There's always the possibility that you simply forget to warp to your known point before using a bookmark in a troublespot
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Thadius
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Posted - 2003.09.08 11:11:00 -
[8]
Seems like an exellent idea! Bump
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Redan Chulipa
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Posted - 2003.09.08 11:13:00 -
[9]
If making it gate to gate then just load the actual space around the gate and only ever just the basic textures of drones and ships. Do you really care for details when in the middle of a battle?
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Macumba
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Posted - 2003.09.08 11:16:00 -
[10]
It's a good suggestion. I've suggested it, you've suggested it, other people have suggested it, in beta and release, and guess what? We still have jump-in ganking.
People went ape**** about this in beta, hence the invulnerability timers. People now combat the timers by lagging people's client out.
Lagging the jump-in area is the logical progression from lagging out jumpgates.
They should of seen this coming and should of fixed it ages ago.
I want to fight, but I also want to be aware of whats going on at the time. It's not much to ask for is it?
"PVP = griefing" Papa Smurf |
Kalar Vrask
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Posted - 2003.09.08 11:31:00 -
[11]
I got hit by Tank CEO recently in this manner, did some tests afterwards with interesting findings - There is NO INVULNERABILITY after jumping at all =p. They don't actually need to lag you out, the system loading time itself at peak server times is usually enough, believe it or not. We tested this at a quiet period for the server, had someone jump into the same system, I had a newbie alt with no skills and no uber gear that could target the person who jumped before he'd loaded his environment. He always jumped in within range of my newbie as well. So needless to say, a skilled combat pilot is going to have your ass pinned down and be ripping you to shreds, and there's nothing you can do about it.
Considering undocking & warping have invulnerability, you'd think jumping through a gate would as well, nice loop for the pirates though, has the advantage that the victim can't check local prior to jumping to see who's in the system either.
In this instance, Tank was camping Amarr - Sarum Prime gate, which is a 1.0 to 0.4 jump. Perfect setup for him. Everytime a fleet of BS's jumped in to nail him, they took so long to load, he'd warped to a station and docked before they were active in the system.
WTG, top 'sploit, Tank 
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Meau
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Posted - 2003.09.08 11:39:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Meau on 08/09/2003 11:43:11
Random jump-in-points were in the game for quite some time. No idea why ccp took them out (that was the stealth change to jumping that introduced the well known jump to station bug).
Any ideas?
*Shrugs*
(For the newer members of the community. At some point in beta, camping the jumppoint and shooting people before they even see the system was THE way to conduct piracy for many people. To prevent this, the random jumpoints were introduced.
Deja-vu anyone?)
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Karunel Hagensry
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Posted - 2003.09.08 11:52:00 -
[13]
I think this is the easiest yet a very good solution to the problem... Thumbs up!
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Karunel Hagensray
Ex- Journalist
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Winterblink
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Posted - 2003.09.08 12:05:00 -
[14]
Excellent idea. Although truly random is a bad idea, you'll want to exclude large areas around planets, moons, roid belts and other objects. Otherwise, I'm all for it. :)
___winterblink/warp_drive_active/eve_nature_vraie// |
Lady Jaxx
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Posted - 2003.09.08 12:08:00 -
[15]
There's already a simple solution to this "syndrome": use a scout.
It's a lot quicker just to change your tactics than start campaigning for another change in game mechanics.
"University of Caille 0wnz 4ll j00 l4m3rz" |
FileCop AI
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Posted - 2003.09.08 12:09:00 -
[16]
Well, the best sollution I can come up with is a mixture of random spawn points, and a 30-60 second invulnerability when entering a system - this should be canceled when you warp. This should be mutual so that none of the parties at spawn point can target eachother. This may sound extreme, but something has to be done. It's not fair that you haven't got a chance of survival in a combat situation - and pirates do not care about "fair play".
FileCop AI of MASS
Co-CEO |
Rust
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Posted - 2003.09.08 12:42:00 -
[17]
 Quote:
There's already a simple solution to this "syndrome": use a scout.
It's a lot quicker just to change your tactics than start campaigning for another change in game mechanics.
This is not possible. Ships of different classes seem to have seperate spawn points - so you are faced with sending in a BS alone to see if it is destroyed. Or you book mark every spawn point in every system in the game. You have of course got to send in a BS to find the spawn point even if you do this.
I can understand why they do this - there are so few places you can fight as it is. However, as with all these pirate grey area/exploits they use to kill players without risk, it just make the game unplayable for the majority.
Should I expect an interesting and thoughtful answer from the likes of Stav to address this issue - emm - I might have to think about that for a while.
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Secure Flotsam
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Posted - 2003.09.08 12:49:00 -
[18]
Simple to code, easy to implement. Thumbs up!
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2003.09.08 13:16:00 -
[19]
I have no idea if this is possible with the codeset or game engine; but drawing on the thread starters idea for a random exit point, what I would like to see is this:
That warp in lag times are dynamically assessed and the resultant final exit point adjusted by a distance comparable to the delay.
For example;
When warping to a gate with a couple of battleships and drones deploy.
I make the warp and begin the transit. At the end point I begin to load and lag delays it for 10 secs. My ship is then hurled 100 klicks out away from the lag source.
This gives adaquate chance for all combatents to load environment fairly, and means that larger battles would start out at more realistic ranges.
It would kill lag-camping since incoming ships would be able to act normally (albeit at a distance ).
Regards
JF Public Forum |
Rust
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Posted - 2003.09.08 13:24:00 -
[20]
Interesting thought Jade. I wonder that if all potential threats were identified when you warped or jumped into an area (that is ships not on gang, Corp, ect), your ship would land at least 100k away. Could solve a lot of problems - and lead to fleet fights that were fair and where tactics could be used.
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Lady Jaxx
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Posted - 2003.09.08 13:33:00 -
[21]
Quote:
Ships of different classes seem to have seperate spawn points - so you are faced with sending in a BS alone to see if it is destroyed.
Ah, now I see what the raven is there for 
"University of Caille 0wnz 4ll j00 l4m3rz" |
Finderne
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Posted - 2003.09.08 13:36:00 -
[22]
Random warp points are not desirable because there's lots of potential warp-in spots within the system that would get the traveller attacked by NPC's or stuck. Semi-random sounds good, but i doubt the star system data is efficient enough that devs could simply eliminate bad warp-in locations.
The idea I like the best about this (proposed by other ppl) is make the warp-in points fuzzier. Instead of the gate dumping you on a spot, have it put you somewhere in a 1000 km radius of the warp-in spot. Hopefully the game engine can handle something like that...
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Finderne
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Posted - 2003.09.08 13:37:00 -
[23]
Random warp points are not desirable because there's lots of potential warp-in spots within the system that would get the traveller attacked by NPC's or stuck. Semi-random sounds good, but i doubt the star system data is efficient enough that devs could simply eliminate bad warp-in locations.
The idea I like the best about this (proposed by other ppl) is make the warp-in points fuzzier. Instead of the gate dumping you on a spot, have it put you somewhere in a 1000 km radius of the warp-in spot. Hopefully the game engine can handle something like that...
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DJvGalen
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Posted - 2003.09.08 13:39:00 -
[24]
Quote:
No, it should be gate to gate. According to the background fiction that's how it works...
Hmm.
I agree, what else are all those Peek of the Week's for ?
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CCP please fix your patch so I can play with my corpmates again soon. |
Winterblink
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Posted - 2003.09.08 14:01:00 -
[25]
Quote:
That warp in lag times are dynamically assessed and the resultant final exit point adjusted by a distance comparable to the delay.
Good idea, let me take it a bit further... why not have the server assess the population of objects at the exit point and scale the distance away from it based on THAT instead of rating the delay somehow? So if there's say one other ship there you'll be x number of km away from the communal exit point, but if there's 20 ships plus all their drones deployed you'll be x*(some factor) km away
___winterblink/warp_drive_active/eve_nature_vraie// |
MaiLina KaTar
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Posted - 2003.09.08 14:07:00 -
[26]
Edited by: MaiLina KaTar on 08/09/2003 14:09:33
Edited by: MaiLina KaTar on 08/09/2003 14:07:36
Quote:
I make the warp and begin the transit. At the end point I begin to load and lag delays it for 10 secs. My ship is then hurled 100 klicks out away from the lag source.
Exactly this solution is the reason why I¦ve posted 2 times on the idea lab that CCP needs to let the players decide how far from their destination they want to exit warp.
When you warp anywhere you should be able to define whether you want to exit warp at 25/50/100/150km to destination.
This way everyone could decide for themselves how far from destination they want to exit warp. This of course means that people with fast machines can decide to warp in closer. On the other hand if you know your game tends to lag for several seconds on warp in you just warp in farther away... problem solved.
This would additionally allow more tactical, long range battles where missile-users, long-range turret users and EW-specialists can really use the advantages of their setup.
Mai's Idealog |
Lady Jaxx
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Posted - 2003.09.08 16:05:00 -
[27]
Quote:
Quote:
There's already a simple solution to this "syndrome": use a scout.
It's a lot quicker just to change your tactics than start campaigning for another change in game mechanics.
This is not possible. Ships of different classes seem to have seperate spawn points - so you are faced with sending in a BS alone to see if it is destroyed. Or you book mark every spawn point in every system in the game. You have of course got to send in a BS to find the spawn point even if you do this.
I was thinking about your reply, and while the way things work right now has problems, it also allows interesting tactical possibilities, as you come close to acknowledging.
For example, jump point campers must have either jumped through in battleships themselves earlier, or bookmarked the coordinate earlier - both things either side can do with planning. Bookmarking the point and scouting with a fast flyby frigate would be an interseting tactical nuance.
Don't have a bookmark? Well don't pile in and fight on their terms, try to use a bit of psychological warfare, or change the strategic situation. What I'm basically saying is the force with the most battleships shouldn't automatically win, there has to be some scope to outthink your opponents and make the rules work to your own advantage, fight in the spirit of Sun Tzu and all that.
"University of Caille 0wnz 4ll j00 l4m3rz" |
Daesdemona
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Posted - 2003.09.08 16:08:00 -
[28]
gate to gate all the way! and cameras available on each gate :)
-----------------------------------------------
Bart: "Do you even have a job any more?"
Homer: "I think its obvious that I Don't"
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Jake Solnich
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Posted - 2003.09.08 16:10:00 -
[29]
I'm really glad that the Eve community has come together in this thread to come up with some great ideas to fix a major problem.
There's no flaming and no name calling here and everyone is being very mature. This is the way all threads should be and I want to thankyou all for doing an excellent job.
Keep up the good work guys!
I would rather die a free man than live as a slave. |
Macumba
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Posted - 2003.09.08 16:11:00 -
[30]
Warp-in isn't a problem. You pays your money you takes your choice. You've got a local channel, a scanner, common sense and process of elimination to determine whether you want to put your head on the chopping block.
Jump-in is the problem. It's a game of Russian roulette (no pun intended). The novely of random deaths wears off pretty quickly.
"PVP = griefing" Papa Smurf |
StoreSlem
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Posted - 2003.09.08 16:14:00 -
[31]
Simpler solution: reduce the invulnerability timer, or remove it completely, if you also make the ship appear first when the client is done loading.
err, maybe not simpler but better.
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The Wretch
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Posted - 2003.09.08 16:23:00 -
[32]
Edited by: The Wretch on 08/09/2003 16:43:47
Bad idea. You should come out of warp at the same place everytime. You switch events too much in favor to the attackers of a defended system.
The only solution - fix the lag caused by rendering/load problems.
Until then, just play smart and send in a scout first or set up bookmarks near strategic locations at clipping range. If it's lagged out, then you just have to play the boring wait game until CCP gets combat fixed in EvE.
The Wretch
Cyberdyne Systems CEO
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Rust
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Posted - 2003.09.08 16:34:00 -
[33]
Lady Jaxx,
It is true that prepared and on your own ground, you can use tactics to a limited degee as the game stands. This is why we haven't seen RUS (we never saw the other large pirate corps)since the last patch - which prevented easy escape when fighting has started.
We are therefore forced to find them when and where we can. Unfortunatly, at some point you must take the risk and attack, even though you put yourself at dreaful risk just to approach your enemy if you are entering a system.
I would love to use tactics and pychological warfare - but in practical terms this means for most people sitting in a station till the enemy goes away.
I have lost three BSs, and on all occasions have not had the chance to even fire one round. Of the people I have killed, it has been very very rare that they have exchanged fire with me. There is something very wrong with PvP at the moment.
I long for the time where fleets can approach each other (not drop within a few kms), and fight using all the resources of different ships - perhaps even changing moduals as the fight goes on. A start may be to drop ships at least 100k from each other.
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Smurf Two
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Posted - 2003.09.08 16:41:00 -
[34]
Wow! Alot of replies and good ideas all around. Let me modify my first post: Make the exit point from a jump gate semi-random avoiding asteroidbelts, planetoids, sun, abandon stations and such.
Of course, the idea of a fuzzy entry point is also a good one. 1000km spread circle of entry should do it. But the thing is, lets keep it as simple as possible otherwise (if the devs even read this) it will take a month or so to implement. CCP isnt exactly the fastest patch releasing company around 
Keep the ideas commin and bump this sucka so we can git¦ some attention perhaps. As they say, "The squeakiest wheel gets the oil first".
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Intruders
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Posted - 2003.09.08 16:51:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Intruders on 08/09/2003 16:55:42
All objects in space are loading too fast, thus the graphic card memory is forced to a bottleneck which combined with the necessary lag, because Server is fixed to send the less bandwidth to client as possible, then, even if you have the most high-end system eventualy after some time the memory leak exceeds the limits and you starting getting lag in gates or drop-off points if camped, the only solution is to change the speed of ships in EVE, epsecially the start warp and end of warp thus making the incoming objects loading slower and we at least get away only with the connection lag and not with the graphics card memory bottlenecks.
Plus slowing down things could make things more realistic, as we would be able to observe them, and take preparative actions, to speed up travel time in current speed they could just increase the imaginary 1999au midwarp travel speed to more.
P.S. Yet i could still see Stav. laughing as your ship aproaches his on the way to the gate as you have time to observe the nice suroundings before warp exit.
Every man lives..but not every man dies!
My sig sux |
Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2003.09.08 17:09:00 -
[36]
Guys,
Warp-in points should be totally random and gangs should jump together.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Fester Addams
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Posted - 2003.09.08 17:21:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Fester Addams on 08/09/2003 17:27:01
The problem is not the way the game works, its the way the game is coded.
Firstly, the underlying code is not capable of keeping many objects in check without it causing lag, being a game based on the infinity of space I find this odd.
The code has to be upgraded to be able to handle 100 or more items in close proximity without causing lag.
The above however is not the main problem, the main problem is that the game has been advertised as a PvP game when the engine and game mechanics do not suport PvP.
The points where players can ambush other players are far too few, 99% takes place at gates, gates basicly being stations in space paying their worth on the basis of travel ought to discourage fights in their vicinity. Considering the power output those gates have I would not want people to fire large nuke torpedoes anywhere near such instalations.
Its a great game but sadly it has attracted too much PvP players who sadly have found easy ways to abuse game mechanics to make it impossible to get past them.
Moreover the combat system is not built for PvP, atm it takes only a few seconds for ships to be destroyed, it matters not what kind of ships they are, one BS vs 2 or 3 good players in cruisers has 1 sec to activate his countermeasures and defensive modules, if they are not activated in that short period of time it does not matter, the ship is gone. This is not a good PvP enviroment.
What we need is a better un derlying code and more logical ambush points for the pirates.
The warpjammers I keep hearing about is sadly not the solution, even if they jam every ship that passes within 1000km of the jammer people will simply learn to create random start points and sail by well out of reach from the pirates.
If the pirates (as we have seen recently) start to whine about people bypassing their efforts to kill and they unlike now get their way the traders and miners will (as we have seen earlier) start to whine and things will change again.
One of the main problems is the fixed warp speed and the fact that you cant do anything during warp. If ships had a flexible warp speed, say from 0.5 to 5.0 AU/s and we were able to hunt in warp this would amend for itself, pirates would hunt between gates, trying to catch a ship. As soon as the attacked ship reaches proximity of a station or gate it should be considered more or less safe, as pirates pray on the station/gates profits/needs it would be in their interest to protect ships who want to use their services.
Now if you dont like my opinions, tough, they are mine and right or wrong I have them, live with it :)
Edit was only correcting some typos, Im dyslexic, so sue me!
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Visionary
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Posted - 2003.09.08 17:23:00 -
[38]
Whats about ships appears in Space AFTER loding the Space ???
i think of a black screen when u jumped in and a indicator if all graphics loadet ... ur ship should be in space AFTER all is loadet and not while loading graphics an stuff...
That would mean, u will apear on coming out of a jump in same way if u log in. "BUUUMP" ... and not sliding into the systems.
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"just my 2 isk" |
Daesdemona
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Posted - 2003.09.08 17:25:00 -
[39]
I think Gang Jump is one of the most important things to add.
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Bart: "Do you even have a job any more?"
Homer: "I think its obvious that I Don't"
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Thadius
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Posted - 2003.09.08 19:49:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Thadius on 08/09/2003 19:49:55
Bumpedy
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2003.09.08 19:59:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Joshua Calvert on 08/09/2003 21:10:46
I think a lot of people are finding it hard to differentiate between jump-in and warp-in points.
Jump-in point: the place you find yourself after using a jumpgate. There is no invulnerability timer and, because you're entering a new system, the time taken to load the new system plus any ships around the jump-in point is magnified and there is a definite chance for you to be ship-killed and podded before your screen starts loading.
Solution to pirates camping these points and using lame lag tactics: Jump-in points are entirely random.
Warp-in point: The place you find yourself after warping to an object/bookmark. Lag here is less of an issue than above but can still get you killed before you have a chance to activate those lifesaving modules.
Solution: Load the objects around your VERY predictable (by the client) warp-in point during warp and you'd probably get a very smooth de-warping experience.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Gravedancer
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Posted - 2003.09.08 21:09:00 -
[42]
Quote:
It'll make the use of insta-jump bookmarks more risky.
Instajump bookmarks are going to be nerfed soon anyway according to CCP, so that line of reasoning is irrelevant. Heres another idea though... why not fix it so that a ship gating in doesnt appear in the system until that players client is loaded ? That way the person gating in will see the campers the same time the campers see them, which would at least give both sides a fighting chance.
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Jericho
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Posted - 2003.09.08 21:12:00 -
[43]
Quote:
Quote:
There's already a simple solution to this "syndrome": use a scout.
It's a lot quicker just to change your tactics than start campaigning for another change in game mechanics.
This is not possible. Ships of different classes seem to have seperate spawn points - so you are faced with sending in a BS alone to see if it is destroyed. Or you book mark every spawn point in every system in the game. You have of course got to send in a BS to find the spawn point even if you do this.
I can understand why they do this - there are so few places you can fight as it is. However, as with all these pirate grey area/exploits they use to kill players without risk, it just make the game unplayable for the majority.
Should I expect an interesting and thoughtful answer from the likes of Stav to address this issue - emm - I might have to think about that for a while.
They must have a different build for RUS players... because I notice all ship classes enter at the same point. Unless you are victim to the ever so popular "Recent Station Bug".
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Smurf Two
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Posted - 2003.09.09 06:09:00 -
[44]
Shameless self bump
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