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Dead Horse Topic # 192: Cloaking needs to cost cap

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Steppa	Posted - 2006.03.13 19:49:00 - [1] ..and forever remove those newb or neutral alt cloaked spies in local forever. Or, just remove local chat unless you say something and we'd all be just loopy over it.
Shinnen	Posted - 2006.03.13 20:17:00 - [2] go to hell --- A Selfdestruct Proposal My sig is good now?-Shinnen
ParMizaN	Posted - 2006.03.13 20:21:00 - [3] the cloaked alts are not the problem. The shuttle ones are. Phenomena of ironies, cast the litany aside How intelligible, blessed be the forgetful I Luv Teh Parm!!1 - Imaran
Jowen Datloran	Posted - 2006.03.13 20:21:00 - [4] Originally by: Shinnen go to hell This reply is equally as pointless as the OP. I like it. ---------------- Main as main can be. Freelance producer of: Spike M hybrid ammo (1k/unit) Damnation command cruiser (200m/unit) Now with BYOM deal, see bio for details.
Mrmuttley	Posted - 2006.03.13 20:56:00 - [5] Edited by: Mrmuttley on 13/03/2006 20:56:22 Given that you cant do anything much else that costs cap while cloaked then please explain exactly what you are trying to acheive here. If you want Coverts to uncloak periodically to recharge cap then please bear in mind that coverts have 5 midslots on and you can get an awful lot of cap from 5 mids. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ This sig space for sale. Need something advertised? Reasonable Rates.
Asane	Posted - 2006.03.13 20:59:00 - [6] If I can't use my weapons due to the cloak nabbing my cap, then what good is the durned thing gonna be?
Shinnen	Posted - 2006.03.13 21:09:00 - [7] Originally by: Mrmuttley Edited by: Mrmuttley on 13/03/2006 20:56:22 Given that you cant do anything much else that costs cap while cloaked then please explain exactly what you are trying to acheive here. If you want Coverts to uncloak periodically to recharge cap then please bear in mind that coverts have 5 midslots on and you can get an awful lot of cap from 5 mids. it would fark up bombers that's for sure :( --- A Selfdestruct Proposal My sig is good now?-Shinnen
Deja Thoris	Posted - 2006.03.13 21:11:00 - [8] And passive hardners should cost cap too dammit!!!!!
Soren	Posted - 2006.03.13 21:13:00 - [9] Forum posting should cost cap... ________________________________________________
Jowen Datloran	Posted - 2006.03.13 21:19:00 - [10] Originally by: Soren Forum posting should cost cap... /signed ---------------- Main as main can be. Freelance producer of: Spike M hybrid ammo (1k/unit) Damnation command cruiser (200m/unit) Now with BYOM deal, see bio for details.
ElCoCo	Posted - 2006.03.13 21:21:00 - [11] Originally by: Soren Forum posting should cost isk... There I fixed it
Rodney Caston	Posted - 2006.03.13 21:21:00 - [12] putting a cap cost on cloaking is just silly.
Asane	Posted - 2006.03.13 21:23:00 - [13] Originally by: ElCoCo Originally by: Soren Forum posting should cost isk... There I fixed it But then I have to start buying on Ebay
ReaperOfSly	Posted - 2006.03.13 21:24:00 - [14] Leave cloaks alone. It's practically the only active module in game that doesn't use cap. Don't ruin that. Or I'll plot some demise all over your candy ass. -------------------------------------------------------------------------
Arkanor	Posted - 2006.03.13 21:51:00 - [15] Edited by: Arkanor on 13/03/2006 21:51:14 Originally by: Soren Forum posting should cost cap... ISK, not cap. EDIT: Damn someone beat me to the punch.
Steppa	Posted - 2006.03.13 22:09:00 - [16] Fine. Put in a decent counter to it then. Currently, just as an example, we have an enemy sitting in our home system, cloaked and spying on local. Always. Every day. One of the best ideas I'd ever heard regarding cloak/anti-cloak is allowing only cloaked ships to find other cloaked ships. Likewise, if you're cloaked, the nature of the distrubance around your ship would cut your local off and reduce your scanner range by 90% (arbitrary number). My whole point was to remove the cheap-ass, lame spies in local. Someone want to explain why Eve seems to be the only MMO without a good idle disconnect routine?
Nikolai Nuvolari	Posted - 2006.03.13 22:12:00 - [17] Originally by: Soren Forum posting should cost cap... Well that's going on my list of favorite quotes. -------- Tom Thumb > for a nut case you rawk [04:21:15] Mebrithiel Ju'wien > Nik's bio 4tw btw [07:38:53] Graelyn > Nikolai for Dev 108!
Synex	Posted - 2006.03.13 22:16:00 - [18] putting on my cap should cost cap!
MOOstradamus	Posted - 2006.03.13 22:20:00 - [19] Originally by: Soren Forum posting should cost cap... Hahahahhahahhahahhahaha MOOCIFER Emerald/Alpha Oldtimer
j0sephine	Posted - 2006.03.13 22:22:00 - [20] "Forum posting should cost cap..." wtb: forum cap recharger III... :/
0bsession	Posted - 2006.03.13 23:10:00 - [21] Originally by: Steppa Fine. Put in a decent counter to it then. Currently, just as an example, we have an enemy sitting in our home system, cloaked and spying on local. Always. Every day. One of the best ideas I'd ever heard regarding cloak/anti-cloak is allowing only cloaked ships to find other cloaked ships. Likewise, if you're cloaked, the nature of the distrubance around your ship would cut your local off and reduce your scanner range by 90% (arbitrary number). My whole point was to remove the cheap-ass, lame spies in local. Someone want to explain why Eve seems to be the only MMO without a good idle disconnect routine? Why cloak then if you can be found? Spies are that... spies. Covert ops... besides... if he's spying on you guys, I'm sure you deserve it... LOL.
Corair	Posted - 2006.03.13 23:22:00 - [22] Use a Doomsday device. There, problem solved. -------- I would love to change the world, but they won't give me the source code.
Telemicus Thrace	Posted - 2006.03.13 23:26:00 - [23] Originally by: Steppa ..and forever remove those newb or neutral alt cloaked spies in local forever. Or, just remove local chat unless you say something and we'd all be just loopy over it. I think the cloak is one of the most well balanced mods going. You can't get within 2km of anything without decloaking which make sneaking between drones to get to a gate a real challange. You can't activate any mods while cloaked. You cannot target lock while cloaked. You have a delay to targetting after you decloak. Unless you are using a specially designed covert ops ship your speed is seriously reduced under cloak. Unless you are using a specially designed covert ops ship your targetting time is seriously increased. With all those balances in place I don't agree that cloaks need a cap drain as well. Speaking as a CovOps pilot (yeah, not an alt. Some of us specialise in covert operations and intel gathering / recon) if it was introduced I'd just decloak, go to warp, pump out some cap chargers and re-cloak before coming out of warp. Or just stock up on passive rechargers. If the problem is somebody sitting cloaked watching traffic in a system then whats to stop a hauler mounting a pile of capacitor mods and a cloak and just sitting there? While I agree local should be changed so you only show up if you speak (but still with a number of pilots in system counter) I don't see an issue with a cloaked ship ghosting a fleet or sitting outside a station on stake out. It's one of the many roles a covert operative fills. This kind of operation has always been a part of warfare. In the last century the British carefully documented the Normandy defences the Germans were constructing by sitting a couple of hundred meters off shore in a 3 man mini sub with a periscope and a notebook. With local the way it is it's a bit more like the old Berlin wall (Me watching you watching me etc) but it does work both ways, you know you are being surveiled. Before crying nerf consider: Use misdirection, don't blob in one system. Create a fleet in one place as a distraction from a fast moving wolf pack in another place. Don't discuss plans in local Use anti-covert covert operatives. Spy catchers. A CovOps needs to decloak to use probes, have your own guys probing for them too. Depth charge an area with smart bombs on fast moving ships. A lot of luck needed to hit a CovOps but you never know. (Best not used in hi-sec in case they hired a 3rd party CovOps pilot and you get concorded). Interdicters can ruin your day in 0.0. All of this aside a skilled team of operatives will ghost your group to get a list of IDs, then they can sit with a locator agent and pinpoint your ships as you come online. The last time we were at war the enemy had a rather obvious alt sitting outside our HQ most of the day. It wasn't a problem, we decided what we wanted them to see and showed it to them. Our 'HQ' was a series of secure cans and personal equipment dotted around hangers in several regions (attack form with formlessness). I am glad warfare in Eve has a rich covert element to it. Some people like Counterstrike, some prefer Metal Gear Solid. No war was ever won with firepower alone. >> RECRUITING <<
JamesTalon	Posted - 2006.03.13 23:27:00 - [24] Originally by: Corair Use a Doomsday device. There, problem solved. Hehe, make sure your friendlies aren't around ya though. Nice sig by the way, thats how all amarr ships should be, crashed into planets http://caldarisurplus.2myip.net
Prestis	Posted - 2006.03.13 23:56:00 - [25] No problem with specialist frigates staying cloaked forever, but cloaking haulers are crazy. Moving POS components into enemy systems is a hostile PvP act that should be counterable, not something you can do invisible (no matter how long it takes).
ezzle	Posted - 2006.03.13 23:57:00 - [26] Originally by: Soren Forum posting should cost cap... DS must have an entire fleet transferring him cap then!
Telemicus Thrace	Posted - 2006.03.14 00:42:00 - [27] Originally by: Prestis No problem with specialist frigates staying cloaked forever, but cloaking haulers are crazy. Moving POS components into enemy systems is a hostile PvP act that should be counterable, not something you can do invisible (no matter how long it takes). There are plenty of ways to stop a cloaked hauler in transit. Even if they deploy the tower and cloak you can still see the tower and attack it. >> RECRUITING <<
Steppa	Posted - 2006.03.14 01:53:00 - [28] I find it slightly amusing to find a RL historical reference when backing an argument about a cloaking device in a computer game. I realize you're just trying to make a point, but still... :) This post was really started as half-****ed/half-kidding. But the more people respond as if there's nothing wrong with a fairly young, npc corp alt sitting idle ALL DAY EVERY DAY and able to provide up to the minute intel on your movements should it be needed strikes me as slightly askew. I won't pine for changes like single user per IP controls that would end stuff like this or the idle-time disconnect I mentioned earlier other than to say that even if they're bad ideas, something needs to be done. Even the devs consider local, as it exists, is being used incorrectly or, at the very least, not as they intended. Yes, yes, how many times has that happened in video games? Again, this post was specifically targeted at removing the ability of a user to run a, in my opinion, a semi-exploitative alt for the purposes of spying. We all talk about how much we hate afk gaming in MMO's. This is in the same ballpark.
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2006.03.14 01:55:00 - [29] Edited by: Dark Shikari on 14/03/2006 01:54:48 Originally by: ezzle Originally by: Soren Forum posting should cost cap... DS must have an entire fleet transferring him cap then! Damnit, you discovered the real reason for the blue robots [23] Member: Official Forum Warrior What's with the blue robots? Click my sig.
Telemicus Thrace	Posted - 2006.03.14 02:15:00 - [30] Originally by: Steppa I find it slightly amusing to find a RL historical reference when backing an argument about a cloaking device in a computer game. I realize you're just trying to make a point, but still... :) Glad you are amused. However I think the reference is very apt. Many covOps / cloakers I know readily equate cloaking ships to submarines. We can run silent & run deep (cloaked) or we can surface and attack / do stuff (decloak). Or we can up periscope and observe with only our prescence in local giving away the fact we are there. If you can't see the parallel between a Covert Ops ship sitting outside a POS or enemy HQ watching defences and troop movements and a Britsh Covert Ops mini sub sitting off the coast of Normandy watching defences and troop movements then god help you. Originally by: Steppa This post was really started as half-**ed/half-kidding. But the more people respond as if there's nothing wrong with a fairly young, npc corp alt sitting idle ALL DAY EVERY DAY and able to provide up to the minute intel on your movements should it be needed strikes me as slightly askew... Assuming he is an alt and not a noob they actually paid some ISK to watch you. Maybe a future Covert Operative in the making. If somebody wants to camp your station and maybe take it in shifts then so be it. Shoot them? let me guess, you are in high sec. Well move your base out of high sec? Maybe not use your listed HQ? Maybe don't use an HQ at all and deploy your men in the field and co-ordinate your offensive through some form of long range communication like a corp channel? Originally by:** Steppa .....something needs to be done Yeah, maybe you learning some tactics other than crying nerf on the forums >> RECRUITING <<

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