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Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
236
|
Posted - 2013.12.29 23:20:00 -
[31] - Quote
Arduemont wrote:Diomedes Calypso wrote:If you don't try new things you'll slide backwards from lack of effort.
yeah, you want to pick and choose what looks like good bets but I think seeing if they could get a foothold on another platform made sense in lots of ways. I agree, it makes perfect sense for CCP to branch out into another project. Let me clarify though, another ONE project. CCP are currently developing/maintaining four games and a mobile app. Three of the projects they are working on are new, ie unreleased. Bioware, one of the most successful and powerful games companies on the planet are currently developing.... ONEnew game. Know why? Because splitting your resources so extremely is daft. Blizzard, another market leader is developing ONEnew game. CCP, are developing two new games. One of which is for a platform that hasn't even been released.
Yes I agree with you too. That seems pretty reckless to me .
A company has human capital as well as financial capital. Even if they have the cash to invest in the mutiple projects iit is unlikely that they have a team of their best for each segment. People learn how to work together with specific coworkers.. they learn how to communicate with the various departments and the executives who might demand some creative oversight in conjunction with the marketing department. There is only so much "attention" time to go around. Even if all the employees are super there are bound to be some more super than others..... you want them all tackling something so risky as anew project while being sure not to leave some blockhead linear thinkers around to take care of your cash cow existing product.
I don't know their balance sheet or cash flow etc.. but my worry would be less about the $ being drained but more about not enough people within the organization who've had the time to develop the trust and internal knowledge to efficiently navigate the decision making trees.... on top of being super creative.
Of course.. its not my money.... but I would hope them the best... and have an element of concern for "a friend" lets say. . |

TigerXtrm
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
401
|
Posted - 2013.12.29 23:30:00 -
[32] - Quote
I think the better question is; is Dust 514 showing a positive constant cashflow yet? Is the current income enough to cover the development cost or is it turning into a massive fail of a project that is causing CCP to lose money? Also don't forget that Sony made a sizeable investment in Dust during initial development. My YouTube Channel - EVE Tutorials & other game related things! |

Arduemont
The State of War.
2861
|
Posted - 2013.12.29 23:33:00 -
[33] - Quote
Diomedes Calypso wrote:Of course.. its not my money.... but I would hope them the best... and have an element of concern for "a friend" lets say.
Yea, me too really. I am sure that the ranting I do comes out as a little conspiratorial with an air of "Eve is dying", but the reason I rant is because Eve online is something special and CCP are probably one of my favourite games developers. It is ultimately out of concern that I rant, because I want Eve to be forever as Hilmar and friends have regularly said.
I think Dust could of been great as well. I played it myself on a friends PS3. He hated it, but I thought it was good. I would play it, but I am not buying a console that will shortly be worth less than the PCB it's made of when I don't even like consoles anyway.
TigerXtrm wrote:I think the better question is; is Dust 514 showing a positive constant cashflow yet? Is the current income enough to cover the development cost or is it turning into a massive fail of a project that is causing CCP to lose money? Also don't forget that Sony made a sizeable investment in Dust during initial development.
That's a fair point. If Sony were subsidising it, then it might be that it's covering it's losses. From some very basic estimates it doesn't seem likely but it might not be all that bad. CCP have said that they have no intention of letting it die or putting a skeleton crew on it like most companies do. Maybe it will eventually grow into something worth being a part of. It took CCP 10 years to get Eve to where it is today. It probably does need a little time. I can't say I am optimistic though. "In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." |

Remiel Pollard
The 0th Fleet A Rather Intimidating Group of Individuals
2351
|
Posted - 2013.12.29 23:42:00 -
[34] - Quote
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:you nor i have any evidence... but it is obvious... This is called a contradiction. If neither you or I have any evidence as you claim, then nothing is obvious. Do you understand? And quite the contrary, actually. Just because you cannot find or have not seen the evidence, it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. Arguments from ignorance are, in fact, merely admissions of ignorance. Also, I am assuming nothing. Try to read the whole sentence next time... "it is obvious that they tried to expand their income sources and came up with a less-than-bright result for it."So the whole argument is: "we lack evidence for A and B, but C is evident and is compatible with proposition A" They HAD the money and they invested it, so that disproves that hey would rather pocket it than invest it, thus if they didn't invested on DUST, that only left EVE and WoD to get the investment. Plus, investing in what gives you money is a sensible business decission.
I read the whole sentence, and you lack the evidence for 'proposition C' as well. You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |

Arduemont
The State of War.
2861
|
Posted - 2013.12.29 23:46:00 -
[35] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:Stuff
Rem. The idea that the directors would have absorbed 4 projects worth of company profit is just stupid. No amount of discussion or arguments about evidence is going to convince anyone otherwise. Companies reinvest. If they didn't invest in new projects they would be investing in getting more our of current projects. If a business doesn't reinvest, it dies. "In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." |

Remiel Pollard
The 0th Fleet A Rather Intimidating Group of Individuals
2351
|
Posted - 2013.12.29 23:52:00 -
[36] - Quote
Arduemont wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:Stuff Rem. The idea that the directors would have absorbed 4 projects worth of company profit is just stupid. No amount of discussion or arguments about evidence is going to convince anyone otherwise. Companies reinvest. If they didn't invest in new projects they would be investing in getting more our of current projects. If a business doesn't reinvest, it dies.
Well, that's too bad about people who won't change their minds based on the evidence. There are other people that do that as well, cling to subjective validation and ignore any evidence that disagrees with them - anti-vaxers, conspiracy theorists, vegans... the list goes on.
Because the difference in profits for 2013 and 2012 clearly shows they have taken a hit to profits, while still maintaining a competitive income. Doesn't really matter whether anyone's convinced or not, the available data does not convince me, or anyone else with the capacity for rational thinking, that EVE would be any different were DUST not to exist. You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |

Arduemont
The State of War.
2862
|
Posted - 2013.12.30 00:05:00 -
[37] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:Well, that's too bad about people who won't change their minds based on the evidence. There are other people that do that as well, cling to subjective validation and ignore any evidence that disagrees with them - anti-vaxers, conspiracy theorists, vegans... the list goes on. Because the difference in profits for 2013 and 2012 clearly shows they have taken a hit to profits, while still maintaining a competitive income. Doesn't really matter whether anyone's convinced or not, the available data does not convince me, or anyone else with the capacity for rational thinking, that EVE would be any different were DUST not to exist.
I am not clinging to subjective validations any more than you are. You are convinced, with no evidence, that CCP's development on Eve would not be changed by the fact they have been developing and maintaining Dust as well as other games.
Doesn't that strike you as odd? You think that if CCP weren't spending that money on Dust and other projects they wouldn't be reinvesting it into the product that generates their income? The basic estimates we made show that it would take a fairly large leap of faith to believe Dust is pulling it's weight*. If it wasn't developed, then there would have been more money available for development on other projects. Where are you suggesting that money would have gone? At the moment, your argument more or less boils down to 'No! I won't believe it!'.
Also, implying I am a vegan is not helping matters. That's just rude.
*Those estimates are in no ones minds fool proof. If you see something wrong with them, come up with a better Fermi estimate and explain your changes. Peer review is important if you want to claim your acting scientifically. I am happy to relook at anything and come to potentially more accurate results.
Edit: I skipped over the rest of your edit. Nothing relevant worth replying to. "In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." |

Felicity Love
STARKRAFT
1406
|
Posted - 2013.12.30 00:07:00 -
[38] - Quote
Arduemont wrote:
It's not just Dust you realise? There's Valkyrie, WoD as well as the mobile apps Unifex is project managing.
It's not just DUST, you realize... it's that many of us don't give a rats ass about DUST.
Console "shooters" are a dime a dozen.
There is only one EVE.
And it's suffering for the sake of a 2nd rate, "been there, done that" shooter that STILL HASN'T delivered on the one unique concept that made it worth doing in the first place: full INTEGRATION into EVE.
But, hey. Not my company.
Can't have a proper Apocalypse without "The Man", Johnny Cash. -áTrue story.
|

Miasmos
Aliastra Gallente Federation
54
|
Posted - 2013.12.30 00:40:00 -
[39] - Quote
#1 reason I want Dust to tank quickly:
I feel the potential but it's such a horror to play that I want to be able to completely quit it without fear of falling off the peak of skill and skillpoint curve. Either it has longevity or I'm wasting thought thinking of the potential.
This is about as objective reason as there is to be hating on it IMHO. |

Yonis Kador
KADORCORP
425
|
Posted - 2013.12.30 01:53:00 -
[40] - Quote
Wasn't Valkyrie developed as a 20% project? Because CCP devs are alloted 20% of their time to conceptualize and develop new projects, it isn't that surprising that there are so many projects being promoted right? Is developing software for platforms that do not yet exist risky? What is the word? Duh? But if that risk pays off, it tends to pay off in spades. As long as the 20% perk exists, we should expect more and more ideas to hit the deck. Instead of deriding them out of hand, I'd suggest we instead celebrate the hits and mourn the misses.
I get that some people would enjoy meaningful avatar interaction and they may have a point that the in-station engine could have been used to work out the bugs with Dust. I'm not a software engineer but it makes sense. If I were able to attend an in-avatar CSM town hall meeting, would I? Sure. Why not? But only if it could be raided by pirates who could kidnap, ransom, and/or execute everyone in attendance. Just like the risks one takes when going anywhere in public.
I seriously doubt that CCP is going to let Dust (or Valkyrie or any app) destroy its entire organization. They may shoot each other with guns, mow off each other's hair, and play sociopathic kamakazis in-game but I'm betting they have better business sense.
EVE, after all, is proof that they get some things right.
YK "Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines." |

Johan Civire
The Lyran Empire
808
|
Posted - 2013.12.30 02:23:00 -
[41] - Quote
The question is you want to have dust or WiS?
if you need to choice withs one? Keep dust alive or convert it to WiS in eve online?
My choice is to let dust die and use dust as a platform for WiS. |

Captain Ravanor Eistiras
Ironide Industries Aegis Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.12.30 02:47:00 -
[42] - Quote
dust is a really good game, i myself have spent more on dust in a month than i would just buying games at all (which is a fair bit) alot of dust mercs buy the AUR which i asume is were the dust r&d funds come from, if you play dust and eve you start to see how eventually it will all come together wether we like it or not, keep eve on pc and dust on console, 2 diffent markets catered for.. |

Remiel Pollard
The 0th Fleet A Rather Intimidating Group of Individuals
2352
|
Posted - 2013.12.30 03:00:00 -
[43] - Quote
Johan Civire wrote:The question is you want to have dust or WiS?
if you need to choice withs one? Keep dust alive or convert it to WiS in eve online?
My choice is to let dust die and use dust as a platform for WiS.
False dichotomy. What if one wants neither, or both? You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |

Gogela
Freeport Exploration Loosely Affiliated Pirates Alliance
3004
|
Posted - 2013.12.30 03:50:00 -
[44] - Quote
Just my 2 isk but it doesn't look like DUST is taking much money at all if the gameplay is any indication.
...zing!
|

Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
2518
|
Posted - 2013.12.30 03:51:00 -
[45] - Quote
Yonis Kador wrote:Wasn't Valkyrie developed as a 20% project? Because CCP devs are alloted 20% of their time to conceptualize and develop new projects, it isn't that surprising that there are so many projects being promoted right? Is developing software for platforms that do not yet exist risky? What is the word? Duh? But if that risk pays off, it tends to pay off in spades. As long as the 20% perk exists, we should expect more and more ideas to hit the deck. Instead of deriding them out of hand, I'd suggest we instead celebrate the hits and mourn the misses.
I get that some people would enjoy meaningful avatar interaction and they may have a point that the in-station engine could have been used to work out the bugs with Dust. I'm not a software engineer but it makes sense. If I were able to attend an in-avatar CSM town hall meeting, would I? Sure. Why not? But only if it could be raided by pirates who could kidnap, ransom, and/or execute everyone in attendance. Just like the risks one takes when going anywhere in public.
I seriously doubt that CCP is going to let Dust (or Valkyrie or any app) destroy its entire organization. They may shoot each other with guns, mow off each other's hair, and play sociopathic kamakazis in-game but I'm betting they have better business sense.
EVE, after all, is proof that they get some things right.
YK
The tech demo was developed as a 20% project.
Valkyrie is being expanded from that tech demo, by a group of developers who have been moved over to Newcastle. Steve Ronuken for CSM 9! http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/
Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |

Mr Pragmatic
869
|
Posted - 2013.12.30 06:16:00 -
[46] - Quote
Oh, Dust is Bust....oh well. Super cali hella yolo swaga dopeness. -á-Yoloswaggins, in the fellowship of the bling. |

James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
7971
|
Posted - 2013.12.30 06:24:00 -
[47] - Quote
Miasmos wrote:#1 reason I want Dust to tank quickly:
I feel the potential but it's such a horror to play that I want to be able to completely quit it without fear of falling off the peak of skill and skillpoint curve. Either it has longevity or I'm wasting thought thinking of the potential.
This is about as objective reason as there is to be hating on it IMHO. Or you could just move on with your life.
One has to wonder if Dust has done poorly because EVE players are vindictive and want it to fail, either because it's a PS3 exclusive or because they don't want CCP working on anything other than EVE. Latest video - Pandemic Legion titan and supers killed |

Arduemont
The State of War.
2862
|
Posted - 2013.12.30 11:51:00 -
[48] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote: One has to wonder if Dust has done poorly because EVE players are vindictive and want it to fail, either because it's a PS3 exclusive or because they don't want CCP working on anything other than EVE.
I find that unlikely. It did badly in independent reviews, and it's target audience are console players who largely wont have been subjected to Eve. I wouldn't be surprised if most of it's current player-base are made up of Eve players who just happen to have a PS3. "In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." |

Katran Luftschreck
Stillwater Corporation
2098
|
Posted - 2013.12.30 11:57:00 -
[49] - Quote
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:CCP total comprehensive income for the period 2008: 5,532,343 <- CCP: "Bring us weed and hookers!" CCP total comprehensive income for the period 2009: 6,020,872 <- CCP: "Bring us coke and high class hookers!" CCP total comprehensive income for the period 2010: 5,482,264 <- CCP: "Bring us cheap booze and hookers!" CCP total comprehensive income for the period 2011: 8,817,262 <- CCP: "Oh yeah, we're rich! LET'S FART OUT DUST!" CCP total comprehensive income for the period 2012: 4,597,556 <- Playerbase: "Ewwww, who farted?" Nullsec in a Nutshell: http://nedroid.com/comics/2006-08-24-2155-arrrdino.gif |
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