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ParMizaN	Posted - 2006.03.17 16:36:00 - [61] I think the 5 sec reload thing on projectiles would be a nice, acceptable boost, though i must admit i havnt fired a projectile weapon in all my time in eve. Phenomena of ironies, cast the litany aside How intelligible, blessed be the forgetful I Luv Teh Parm!!1 - Imaran
Montero	Posted - 2006.03.17 16:36:00 - [62] nicely hammered home. haven't got much time to think about it atm (not going to college for 2 weeks ftl) but how about increasing the damage mod of the high tiers and reducing the ROF proportionatly. this would reduce some of the clip size issues without effecting the overall dps of the gun for firing one clip. JUST GET THE **** OFF MY SIG, K?
Kyo Kuno	Posted - 2006.03.17 16:44:00 - [63] Edited by: Kyo Kuno on 17/03/2006 16:45:34 Originally by: Smartacus How about. CCP gets rid of RELOADING in any way, shape or form. No reloading what so ever for any race. I mean c'mon we are flying highly advanced spaceships in freakin space. Yet i need to reload my gun Just get rid of it. Will solve a lot of these underpowered guns. I've always wondered why this was too! I mean wouldn't the future hold some kind of ammo rack? Machinery would automatically put more ammo into the "clip" of the turret once it gets low. The delay between firing another missile is the time where a new missile is loaded into the missile launcher.
TuRtLe HeAd	Posted - 2006.03.17 16:47:00 - [64] See I agree that its like that in the long run, however, I do prefer the inital kick I get from the 200mm variants and 800mm variants. I'd rather Kill something quickly with the intial extra damage. Long engagments in minmatar vessels isn't practical as a rule of thumb as the HP's just dont marry up. I've tested this theory many a time and for ratting I would always favour the model down to the higher teir , But as far as PvP is concerned I've always taken the higher tier (Except when it comes to cruisers [220's over 425's]) I.e I'd rather get 3 hits of 50 in than 5 x hits of 30. Pureley because For me, the initial damage can determine the outcome of the fight. So Agreed it is an issue that needs resolving, but as for No point using them for PvP. I've used them nonstop for 2 years and not noticed a problem yet. Bottom line is theres a lot of room for improvment in this area. Preferably with a damage output increase. not with a magazine change. Nice post as well dude Sarmaul , Very well executed ! What I've said is my opinion ONLY. It works for me And I don't have a problem with it. If anyone disagrees with what I've said thats up to them, But Like I said, its an OPINION.
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.03.17 18:52:00 - [65] bumpage - spread the love/hate/knowledge/isk
Pesadel0	Posted - 2006.03.17 18:55:00 - [66] This thread shall not pass ,ermm die :D
Tiuwaz	Posted - 2006.03.17 21:34:00 - [67] as some ppl argued that reloading in a fight isnt common, i'd like to ask you Sarmaul ,if possible, to provide us with dps numbers for 30 sec 60 sec 120 sec of fighting I'd also want to add for the others, that for balancing reason you have to take reloading into account. you cant balance a cannon for 10 sec of shooting in a gank. Originally by: Oveur ****! Lets nerf it! To the nerfmobile!
Kldraina	Posted - 2006.03.17 22:26:00 - [68] If you increase the DPS of the bigger autocannons, it potentially disrupts the balance of the minmatar ships (as compared to the other races). Also, I think it would be nice to have some variety besides just damage increases. Perhaps what is really needed is for the bigger autocannons to have increased falloff (instead of increased optimal). That could introduce a reason to use the bigger ones over the smaller ones, without increasing the damage potential of Minmatar ships.
dabster	Posted - 2006.03.17 22:42:00 - [69] Awsome summarypost Sarm, I would love to want to fly Tempys more often ___________________________ Brutors Rule! My Eve-vids; Click.
Ras Blumin	Posted - 2006.03.17 22:43:00 - [70] Edited by: Ras Blumin on 17/03/2006 22:43:59 Originally by: Kldraina If you increase the DPS of the bigger autocannons, it potentially disrupts the balance of the minmatar ships (as compared to the other races). Also, I think it would be nice to have some variety besides just damage increases. Perhaps what is really needed is for the bigger autocannons to have increased falloff (instead of increased optimal). That could introduce a reason to use the bigger ones over the smaller ones, without increasing the damage potential of Minmatar ships. Would it really be so horrible of minmatards were outdamaged less by the other races? edit - btw nicely put together sarm A dirty job - Released 2006.01.02
Isonkon Serikain	Posted - 2006.03.17 22:55:00 - [71] to calculate a reasonable damage increase for 800's, why not calculate a mean DOT increase between dual heavy pulse and mega pulse, ion blaster and neutron blaster, etc. and apply the same percentage increase to the midcaliber AC to get the DOT of the largest AC. Ison's notches
gron alt	Posted - 2006.03.17 23:01:00 - [72] Originally by: Isonkon Serikain to calculate a reasonable damage increase for 800's, why not calculate a mean DOT increase between dual heavy pulse and mega pulse, ion blaster and neutron blaster, etc. and apply the same percentage increase to the midcaliber AC to get the DOT of the largest AC. because then they would oinly get a 2% boost? the problem or advantage depending on how you look at it is that all the AC have the same falloff [ie look at 650s vs 800 and that last one 450s?] the difference is a very tiny optimal meaning that fitting a larger gun doesnt actually give you more range. the DPS increase from ions --> neutrons if you take relaod into account is like a 3-4% increase iirc
Ravenal	Posted - 2006.03.18 00:05:00 - [73] great post - a pointer which doesnt really matter: (higher tier): - more room in cargo for ammo or other stuff - less tracking dps might be fine but yeah, strange that the BIGGER guns have less ammo capacity... plus bigger guns should be used to shoot bigger ships which again means more shield and armor and stuff... which should mean more dps as a trade off for tracking. . -Fate is what you make of it. -Make your own fate using T2 items produced by The Fated
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.03.18 18:08:00 - [74] fix my ******* guns
Khadur	Posted - 2006.03.18 18:18:00 - [75] Very good work <3 sarmual
Soyemia	Posted - 2006.03.18 18:34:00 - [76] Originally by: Sarmaul fix my ******* guns me too! I had today quarrel with corp CEO. I yelled how minmatars are so big underdogs that are always at disadvantege. HE said: Tempest is great fleet ship, so what!? It doesn't really matter to me if it is good flet ship. I mostly solo and small gangs. Cyclone SUCK solo compared to other BC:s. Just because other shieldtank BC (ferox) has 6 meds. That makes that I must sacrifice my meds to tank and have no any tacling gear to my ship. Artillerys are badly broken. If you use artys you MUST outclass enemy. With such alpha like artillerys and low DOT. No any cruiser vs. cruiser/BC vs. BC/BS vs. BS fight last so little time that alpha would be any good. And if you fit rails you dont need to sacrifice tank. With artys you need. Why we have only 3 ships what can propely fit shieldtank? We have better resists in shield, but we can't use those resists. And I too use all my "secondary" slots for nos:s. I don't want to use missiles expesially when we have more gun HP:s than missile ones. As gallente you need to learn armor tank/drones/hybrids. As minmatar you need to learn: drones/projectiles/missiles/armor tank/shield tank. SO double as much training. As Caldari you need to learn: Shield tank/missiles as Amarr you need learn: armor tank/lasers. So as minmatar 3 ties more training. So with lessers skilponts we always have HUGE disadvantage. Now I fly only ships that have more turrets than missiles. SO I use those useless missile slots for nos:s. I can't just simply have with 2,4m SP all those. I have poor gunnery/poor drones/poor shield tank/poor armor tank. I need to learn all those! But amarr/caldari/gallente already have decent skills at their specialized skills. So I almoust always lose expect I outclass enemy/be much older than enemy. That is why I belive minmatars suck. And they suck very badly with low SP. I hate you CCP
Wulfgard	Posted - 2006.03.18 18:50:00 - [77] True, minmatars suck with arty in solo or small gang (altho 5 T2 1400s Tempests can instapop about anything). The AC Tempest is still a very good option for close range pvp, but not for pve. My biggest disappointment with CCP is the ammo consumption of ACs and the fact that 800s arent a viable choice due to powergride problems (even on the Machariel you are hardpressed to fit 6 800s and a solid tank). Also Hail T2 Ammo has way to many malus compared to other races ammo.
Soyemia	Posted - 2006.03.18 18:56:00 - [78] It doens't warm me much that they suck in small gangs or solo. They are not viable choice for pirating. They are not viable choice for anything expect fleets. I dont want to fight in fleets. We should have ships that doesn't suck in small gangs/fleets. And every other race has good fleet ships too, so minmatars aren't really good at anything, they are more likely bad at everything.
Sun Ra	Posted - 2006.03.19 15:37:00 - [79] Edited by: Sun Ra on 19/03/2006 15:38:31 Originally by: Shamis Orzoz If I put 3-4 dmg mods on a 800mm T2 tempest and load them with hail, there will be no reloading required. The other big advantage of using the bigger guns is that you use less ammo, which is nice when using t2 ammo. I wouldn't complain if they got boosted, but there are much bigger problems to worry about in eve. Shamis Same could be said for dual 650 tho :P main changes to the top tier ac need is extra fall off as you go up a tier as range isnt important, slighly larger clip and maybe a slight damage boost Arcane Frankologies - 'plz stop guys it's xmas'
HippoKing	Posted - 2006.03.19 15:43:00 - [80] excellent thread - i'm a pure caldari monkey (me and the rest of eve ), but the figures you put forward show clear problems. fixeh! sigs of the 23/24/25 hijack just as well -eris yarrrr, i shall retake my sig -HippoKing Not a chance, our 1337 sig haXx0r sk1llz are too powerful! - Wrangler Ho-Ho-Hooooooo, Merry Saturday!11 - Immy Yo ho ho and a bottle of BReeEEEEeee.... - Jacques ARRRRRRchambault Stop spamming with "QFT" >:\|. - Teblin
Kcel Chim	Posted - 2006.03.19 17:40:00 - [81] excellent thread. i agree with testys proposals to improve the situation and i advertised the very same ideas half a year ago... one can still hope one day they might have a look.
Farwinter	Posted - 2006.03.19 18:19:00 - [82] Excellent post and investigation, very impressed. Let's hope this gets a glance from the powers that be.
Tiuwaz	Posted - 2006.03.19 20:48:00 - [83] plz fix them o/ Originally by: Oveur ****! Lets nerf it! To the nerfmobile!
DigitalCommunist	Posted - 2006.03.19 22:13:00 - [84] Allow me to interject with a bit of logical reasoning not commonly found in this thread because of all the biased views. Now to start off, I'm not saying change it one way or another, so you can feel safe in reading this thoroughly. What I am saying is people should not be crying for a boost to this-and-that simply because of a minor issue, which might not even be a problem with the math. We are far past the point where kicking up a damage mod is the best option for tweaking weapons. The issue here as far as I can tell is that the benefits of fitting a larger weapon over a medium sized weapon in the same class becomes marginal or literally non-existant over the course of several reloads. Can you claim that this is somehow broken? Even though you sacrifice considerable amount of fitting power in using them, you can't say that they do not provide advantages over their smaller brethren. For one, the larger weapons obviously have a higher damage mod, and higher optimal range. That means better single volley damage, and theoretically longer engagement zone. The reason why this "benefit" does not warrant the sacrifices you make (at least not for some people) can be blamed on the racial characteristics of Minmatar fighting style. Minmatar love their insta-*****kill shots, and obscene wreckings, which make hit and run tactics more viable for ships larger than a frigate. They also have a characteristically crappy magazine size, forcing them to load frequently so prolonged slugfests are not possible. They also have characteristically huge falloff ranges on their weapons, allowing them the freedom to move around a bit more than your typical laser user could. These three things are irrelevant for close range weapons, simply because of the scale issues.. - For guns which are more or less EVE's equivalent of a machinegun, are you really going to get wreckings which could be labelled as "obscene"? - For guns which have falloff three times bigger than their optimal, is a boost to optimal by one or two kilometres really going to matter? If you consider a fight which has a long duration where reloads are a factor, as Sarmaul here is suggesting, the answer is: the guns are pointless. If you consider a fight which does not require you to empty out an entire clip, would the largest guns be superior? The answer is yes. Now, I'm not going to quote any Devs or documents because the fact is they probably aren't Gods of fairness and balance considering other weapon systems. What I will say is, how does this not directly match Minmatar combat style? Throughout the years the various numbers, tweaks and boosts have been based on what their style should be. If you want a weapon that is linearly better simply due to fitting cost, its only taking one step closer to making all guns identical, save for damage types dealt. Personally, I don't think combat lasts long enough for this to be a "serious concern" for Minmatar pilots. I've flown Minmatar ships, and I've had to worry about my ammo far less than I would on Amarr ships, which need constant babysitting to maintain as close to your optimal as possible. Of course, small things like that tend to get ignored in favor of mathematical proof, even though the impact could be quite severe. Purchasing Complex Fullerene Shards, contact me ingame.
madaluap	Posted - 2006.03.19 22:51:00 - [85] Edited by: madaluap on 19/03/2006 22:51:34 Originally by: Sarmaul Edited by: Sarmaul on 16/03/2006 20:43:22 Comparison Chart (Rounded to 2DP) 150mm II Rifter: 24.67 DPS 200mm II Rifter: 24.5 DPS 220mm II Rupture: 44.15 DPS 425mm II Rupture: 44.15 DPS 220mm II Stabber: 35.32 DPS 425mm II Stabber: 35.32 DPS D650mm II Typhoon: 48.21 DPS 800mm II Typhoon: 48.85 DPS D650mm II Tempest: 60.26 DPS 800mm II Tempest: 61.06 DPS Solutions? 1) Increase the magazine size of the top-tier autocannons to match that of the medium-tier ones. The guns are balenced between themsleves besides this issue, which is screwing up everything. 2) (Originally by Xuthas) Decrease the reload time for projectiles to 5 seconds to allow them to spend less time reloading, and also to let them change ammo types quicker. first of all you say you dont want to hear about other weapons, but you have to in order to balance stuff. what does 5% extra damage mean if you have nothing to compare it with. increasing the ammo clip i agree on, also there should be more damage difference between ac. but 5 sec reload time? ammar needs to reload a lot = 1 sec minmatar have extreme falloff and can hit far into there optimal, so they need to reload the least. gallente have medium optimal, medium falloff so they need to reload less than ammar, but more than mini. yes you are right gall needs to get that 5 sec reload time offcourse this is not the case on blasters. I know what you are going to say now, but we have multicoloured dmg we neeeeed to use it, yes that 5 sec sounds sweet, but it would just make ac a bit too sweet. imagine a raven pilot whining that he wants a 3 sec reload time because he has multicoloured dmg AND incase he gets jammed he needs to load in fof fast. _________________________________________________
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.03.19 22:57:00 - [86] dc, I do you the reply you deserve when I have the time to work out some more figures Originally by: madaluap first of all you say you dont want to hear about other weapons, but you have to in order to balance stuff. what does 5% extra damage mean if you have nothing to compare it with. That just to try and stop the thread from getting derailed :). regarding the reload times - they are just ideas to try and boost the dps, much like increasing the ammo clip. It would also allow minmatar to actually utalize more than just EMP in fights. one of the minmatar bonuses is that you can do all damage types. however, you basically have to pick the right ammo at the start of the fight or waste 10 seconds reloading. again, I don't have the answers, I'm just trying some of the suggestions.
madaluap	Posted - 2006.03.19 23:01:00 - [87] Edited by: madaluap on 19/03/2006 23:05:11 Originally by: Sarmaul dc, I do you the reply you deserve when I have the time to work out some more figures Originally by: madaluap first of all you say you dont want to hear about other weapons, but you have to in order to balance stuff. what does 5% extra damage mean if you have nothing to compare it with. That just to try and stop the thread from getting derailed :). regarding the reload times - they are just ideas to try and boost the dps, much like increasing the ammo clip. It would also allow minmatar to actually utalize more than just EMP in fights. one of the minmatar bonuses is that you can do all damage types. however, you basically have to pick the right ammo at the start of the fight or waste 10 seconds reloading. again, I don't have the answers, I'm just trying some of the suggestions. yeh i do get youre derailing argument, after a while everyone comes in and before you know it the topic is all about tachyon vs rails, while it started as a AC thread i personally think both minmatar and gallente should get 5 sec instant = lasers 5 sec = bullets 10 sec = missiles agree, lets strike a deal here /edit: found a ubertypo, damn you allready qouted meh _________________________________________________
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.03.19 23:02:00 - [88] Originally by: madaluap Originally by: Sarmaul dc, I do you the reply you deserve when I have the time to work out some more figures Originally by: madaluap first of all you say you dont want to hear about other weapons, but you have to in order to balance stuff. what does 5% extra damage mean if you have nothing to compare it with. That just to try and stop the thread from getting derailed :). regarding the reload times - they are just ideas to try and boost the dps, much like increasing the ammo clip. It would also allow minmatar to actually utalize more than just EMP in fights. one of the minmatar bonuses is that you can do all damage types. however, you basically have to pick the right ammo at the start of the fight or waste 10 seconds reloading. again, I don't have the answers, I'm just trying some of the suggestions. yeh i do get youre derailing argument, after a while everyone comes in and before you know it the topic is all about tachyon vs rails, while it started as a AC thread i personally think bought minmatar and gallente should get 5 sec instant = lasers 5 sec = bullets 10 sec = missiles agree, lets strike a deal here sounds good to me - gallente can switch range quicker and minny can switch damage quicker. unfortunatly I'm not a dev :)
Selim	Posted - 2006.03.19 23:15:00 - [89] I like the 5 second reload thing. Would also help when you want to change ammotypes mid-fight. Which is rare, I'll admit, but it should be an option. ____________ Originally by: hired goon Imagine if you were having sex but the girl turned into Margaret Thatcher just as you were approaching climax. That's why we hate WCS.
DigitalCommunist	Posted - 2006.03.20 00:12:00 - [90] You still don't get my point, you shouldn't be working out 'figures' because its not a mathematical problem you are facing - its all about interpretation of how something should work, and whether the numbers don't support that. There is nothing in all of your posts to suggest anything wrong with autocannons. Comparing numbers is at best an example of how a ship might perform, but in reality its a combination of little things that add up to victory. Everyone knows Minmatar guns have the worst tracking, worst damage over time, worst ammo capacity, ships have traditionally weaker tanks, and often aren't on par with others in the EW department. Using math I can tell you that Minmatar are underpowered. Using math I can prove you're fat, or that beetles fart explosives on Neptune. The narrow view of such calculations do not explain why Minmatar ships continue to kick other ships ass. Pure DPS calculations are the equivalent of gradeschool poetry, and you might as well be rehearsing "My cat went scat in the hat, oh snap." Purchasing Complex Fullerene Shards, contact me ingame.

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