If you're in Amarr space you then either want to go for the Paladin or the Golem

i still find that pirate battle ships have all the tank you need for Lvl 4s and about 50% more DPS.
Which is a real shame given the time to train a marauder i hoped that it would allow me to at least enjoy doing missions a bit more.

Then it might be just be the Golem thats a bit disappointing.

fixed for you

I'm returning to the game after a short break and am about to start the train for a marauder - AWU V then lvl 5 in a racial BS is all I need. My problem stems from not knowing which one to get...

Right now I mission in high sec amarr space and am basically equally trained in all BS sized weaponry. Would I be correct in assuming the Paladin would be the better all-around choice, considering my location? I plan on training for all four eventually, so it's just getting that starting one that's a bit perplexing.

Thx in advance for any advice/comments.

You mean that Golem that has to perpetually get in range with its torps, that same Golem with 0% base EM resists and also that Golem that needs to cycle 2 painters (annoying as hell) to actually apply its dps, are we talking about the same Golem here?

Umm. Current meta dictates cruise Golem. Which has no range issues and really doesn't require painters.

Toying with that you're right, at least when you start using fury ammo.

When using T1 ammo it's still mostly in favour of the Vargur (up to 50km or so), with faction RF vs Fury the Golem pulls ahead at 33km. So while it all depends on what range you have to fight I'll concede that pure damage types with those bonuses and T2 rigors does quite well, even against BC. Against cruiser targets it starts to become terrible though and will have to switch ammo to not completely suck where the Vargur just keeps using base T1 ammo or RF and keeps on firing, mixing targets.

So the Vargur still is easier to use :P

In this situation it does because the difference between T1 and Faction turret ammo is a plain damage increase for increased cost, but if you go from T1 to Fury ammo (which is needed to get the good dps numbers on that Golem, without fury it's mediocre) you also get damage application differences to a point when you do 220 or so to a base speed cruiser.

The golem NEEDS fury to shine but it also restricts it in regards to target type, so unless one agrees to wasting lots of time doing low dps to cruisers, or decides to take out target based on size (BS/BC first) and then switch ammo either way you're wasting time. A turret ship like the Vargur does not have to make choices like that, it just keeps firing its ammo (be it T1 or faction) regardless of the target.

You cannot pay 1billion isk for a hull that has half the ammo consumption of its relatives, fit T2 guns/launchers and then argue about ammo cost for missioning. It does not make sense. T2 or faction ammo is the only option for these hulls.

[....] a gunship will use t1 or faction ammo 95% of the time, with price as the only consideration, and t2 being situational (scorch aside).

In this situation it does because the difference between T1 and Faction turret ammo is a plain damage increase for increased cost, but if you go from T1 to Fury ammo (which is needed to get the good dps numbers on that Golem, without fury it's mediocre) you also get damage application differences to a point when you do 220 or so to a base speed cruiser.

The golem NEEDS fury to shine but it also restricts it in regards to target type, so unless one agrees to wasting lots of time doing low dps to cruisers, or decides to take out target based on size (BS/BC first) and then switch ammo either way you're wasting time. A turret ship like the Vargur does not have to make choices like that, it just keeps firing its ammo (be it T1 or faction) regardless of the target.

I haven't seen the OP in a while.

...So, we'll commense bitter-vet e-peen about trivial crap? I too am interested in how many target painters I must fit on my rage golem and the cost of faction ammo on a 4 turret ship. Perhaps we could do a ROF comparison between blasters / atuocannons, and rails / arty?

I'd also want a breakdown of the most efficient drones to use. So, if I have salvage drone 4 am I better off using my MTU and tractors to scoop the loot in and salvage with drones? Or should I be sending my curators / bouncers out to visit wrath upon the approaching NPCs? Could I get a quick DPS bounty calculation vs. the value of salvage drones working with minimal travel time?

/sarcasm (..if it wasn't apparent)

Not necessarily. A 2xRigorII Golem with 3 TPs can take the same amount of volleys against cruisers as a Golem using Precision ammo (with or without Rigors.) Otherwise, the Golem takes one extra volley to kill cruisers normally. However,
* big slow Guristas cruisers tend to die just as quickly to Fury as Precision regardless
* T1 ammo and 3 TPs looks like it performs as well as Precision ammo (except against frigates.)

fyi, three PWNAGE TPs on a Golem increase the target's sig size by 3.07.

2 T2 rigor golem vs unfitted Moa, same + 3 painters

T1 ammo: 343 675
Precision: 675 675
Fury: 247 683

So there's a big difference in performance between precision and fury in this regard and fury requiring 3 painters to work (using less severely lowers the damage), and cycling 3 painters on the same target, having to deal with the different launcher and painter cycling, that's just silly. Also, with T1 or precision you can shoot different targets because you're not relying on painting a single target with all 3 painters.

So yes, running fury lowers your effectiveness against cruiser targets (obviously), you WILL lose time because you have to wait for the painters to cycle and you can only fire on 1 target at the same time. Overall you lose time by toying with this OR you switch ammo, either way it's a lot more effort and time lost.

A ship that doesn't have to bother with changing ammo depending on target size will always be more user friendly and while it may be outperformed by the golem at some things (generally beyond a certain 30-50km range) overall it'll be easier and less annoying to use.



Personally I'd rather biomass than having to paint every ******* smaller target, waiting for the cycles and overlap they will have. Not saying it doesn't work, it does and apart from the "1 target only due to painters" it works really well, but honestly; **** that ****.

You mean that Golem that has to perpetually get in range with its torps, that same Golem with 0% base EM resists and also that Golem that needs to cycle 2 painters (annoying as hell) to actually apply its dps, are we talking about the same Golem here?