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XIRUSPHERE
In Bacon We Trust
88
|
Posted - 2011.11.08 09:40:00 -
[1] - Quote
Given ccp cannot dedicate resources to policing the current dec mechanics I propose a simple solution. War is about confrontation between players and the current mechanics allow for a range of loopholes that create headaches for players and eat up resources.
When war is declared mutual kill rights should be extended to all players of said corporate entities for a fixed duration. This would make corp hopping to avoid or exploit the mechanic futile. While it is not a fix for dec shields it would certainly make war personal and stop simple mechanic exploitation. The advantage of a bad memory is that one can enjoy the same good things for the first time several times.
One will rarely err if extreme actions be ascribed to vanity, ordinary actions to habit, and mean actions to fear. |

Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
73
|
Posted - 2011.11.08 09:57:00 -
[2] - Quote
No.
Wars need a well defined purpose; something that makes both sides stands out to gain or lose something from the outcome.
My hope is that the current changes are leading to a total rework of war declaration mechanics. Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook-á |

Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
590
|
Posted - 2011.11.08 10:01:00 -
[3] - Quote
sitting at the jita 4-4 undock with remote sensor boosts and reps from npc corp alts must truly be the pinnacle of ~elitepvp~ |

Spacing Cowboy
Ordo Drakonis Nulli Secunda
8
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Posted - 2011.11.08 10:41:00 -
[4] - Quote
Or just grow some balls on your pod and leave highsec. Plenty to kill in low, 0.0 or wormholes.
You dont even have to warn then with a dec, kill what you can catch.
Ow wait.... There less new players ignorant about game mechanics there!
Stick with canflipping? |

Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor
213
|
Posted - 2011.11.08 10:46:00 -
[5] - Quote
What happens if we don't want to leave hi-sec? What happens if we don't have any particular interest in low-sec or null-sec?
Hi-sec is here, it's not going away, and there are a lot of people who live in it. People who cannot get to grips with this fact have no business being in EVE, just like people who can't accept the possibility of ship-loss in low-sec or null-sec. Andreus Anthony LeHane Ixiris CEO, Mixed Metaphor
Animated Corporate Logos |

Bloody Wench
126
|
Posted - 2011.11.08 10:54:00 -
[6] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:What happens if we don't want to leave hi-sec? What happens if we don't have any particular interest in low-sec or null-sec?
Hi-sec is here, it's not going away, and there are a lot of people who live in it. People who cannot get to grips with this fact have no business being in EVE, just like people who can't accept the possibility of ship-loss in low-sec or null-sec.
Although I've lived solo in a WH since January, I'm really a bit of a carebear, but what you just said is pretty sad.
You eventually get to a point where everything highsec offers is too easy. |

Poetic Stanziel
Arrakis Technology
233
|
Posted - 2011.11.08 10:59:00 -
[7] - Quote
Bloody Wench wrote:You eventually get to a point where everything highsec offers is too easy. That is the problem. Too much for too little risk.
EVE Online: Incarna - New Coke EVE Online: Winter Expansion - Coke Classic |

Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
38
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Posted - 2011.11.08 11:07:00 -
[8] - Quote
Elite high sec PVPer, checking in. I've ganked 99 Exhumers. Do I get a medal when I hit 100? |

Poetic Stanziel
Arrakis Technology
233
|
Posted - 2011.11.08 11:11:00 -
[9] - Quote
Herr Wilkus wrote:Elite high sec PVPer, checking in. I've ganked 99 Exhumers. Do I get a medal when I hit 100? If no one will give you one, I will make a corporation just so that I can give you one.
EVE Online: Incarna - New Coke EVE Online: Winter Expansion - Coke Classic |

Spacing Cowboy
Ordo Drakonis Nulli Secunda
8
|
Posted - 2011.11.08 11:11:00 -
[10] - Quote
I will do my best to bring it less crude/smack. ( really )
The current game mechanics allows for people unwilling to play stationgames and gate-**** to escape that in highsec.
The willing one's will declare the dec mutual.
So, what is your problem? You can still kill them, concord is to slow to beat a alpha tempest..
If you want to get real pvp, against people who expect it, go to low/0.0/wormhole.
Imho, please read that again .. Imho... Now the new players have a better protection while they learn eve. And nerf the highsec griefers a bit.
Name it as you want, chasing and killing new guys aint skill, its padding kb stats easy mode.
So, thats why the *man up* , and find something to shoot who will proberly be expecting you :) |

Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor
213
|
Posted - 2011.11.08 11:18:00 -
[11] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:That is the problem. Too much for too little risk.
I've heard this said a million times before, but I've never heard a convincing argument for why this is true. Andreus Anthony LeHane Ixiris CEO, Mixed Metaphor
Animated Corporate Logos |

Rek Seven
Zandathorn Industries
24
|
Posted - 2011.11.08 11:20:00 -
[12] - Quote
I think wars should work like this:
* The aggressor sets a win condition (e.g. 10 ships killed) that must be met in a given time * If the win condition is not met, the victim receives the isk that the aggressors fronted for the war * If members from either side drop corp during the war, they can be attacked for 24 hours * If you neutral rep someone at war, the other side gets kill rights on you for 24 hours * If the win condition is met or lost, that should be recorded on aggressors war history information (new tab) |

Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
39
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Posted - 2011.11.08 11:30:00 -
[13] - Quote
Spacing Cowboy wrote:Or just grow some balls on your pod and leave highsec. Plenty to kill in low, 0.0 or wormholes.
You dont even have to warn then with a dec, kill what you can catch. So, let's say I, and a few friends, go to low or null. Will we be killing the rat spawn at the gate, the botter that logs off its Raven upon entry into the system, or the derp-derp cyno bait that makes us retreat with a collective sigh as sixteen supercarriers and a bridged support fleet are dropped onto our four cruiser hulls? Or is low/null pvp like a poker tournament, where the only way to play is to buy in with a super blob of your own? I know you can find decent fights there, sometimes, but damn me if I don't think that mining ice would make for a more enjoyable time than looking for them.
Oh, and I didn't mention wormholes, because wormholes are pretty neat. I've lived in them, on and off, since the day they were out. However, CCP needs to expand a bit on wormhole gameplay to make..."meeting" people there slightly less of a chore.
Bloody Wench wrote:You eventually get to a point where everything highsec offers is too easy. When I started playing this game, I went straight into null. A few years ago, I gave up on it entirely. It became monotonous, and boring. The pvp was rarely exciting, and being in fleets of more than 20 felt like I was but one in a column of soldiers marching in a 19th century army.
Meanwhile, in high-sec, I rarely, if ever, see myself in double-digit fleets, routinely fight outnumbered, and have to account for the fact that it's never just the people with stars by their names who are hostile. Maybe high-sec is too easy, but only if your idea of high-sec is a place you go to so you can grind up enough cash for the next dozen Maelstroms you're going to lose. |

Stahlregen
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.08 11:34:00 -
[14] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:Poetic Stanziel wrote:That is the problem. Too much for too little risk. I've heard this said a million times before, but I've never heard a convincing argument for why this is true.
Argument 1: As an individual and as a corp it's entirely possible to avoid a war declaration by simply leaving either your alliance or corp. Therefore eliminating the risk of actually having to engage in PVP whatsoever.
Argument 2: Considering my first argument, If people so wish to avoid conflict then the only things shooting them on a regular basis in high sec is NPCs. Not even hard NPCs but literally the easiest NPCs in the game.
Argument 3: You can auto-pilot your faction battleship/freighter anywhere in high-sec with impunity due to lack of bubbles and assuming you're avoiding war decs.
Argument 4: Concord. COME ON! Even when you do get killed the goddamn NPCs go out and get revenge for your own incompetent, scrublord ass.
These are all points straight off the top of my head, If you can't see how this all makes high sec incredibly safe and completely skews the risk v reward then there's probably not much point arguing with you because you're beyond reason but hey, at least I gave it a shot. |

Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
592
|
Posted - 2011.11.08 12:00:00 -
[15] - Quote
High-sec aggression mechanics are incredibly broken as it is. Wardecs are always in favor of the aggressor, especially with entities that are prepared with neutral RR alts and other nonsense. |

Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor
213
|
Posted - 2011.11.08 12:13:00 -
[16] - Quote
Stahlregen wrote:not much point arguing with you because you're beyond reason but hey, at least I gave it a shot.
This is from the same guy who emorages and bans people from his YouTube channel every time someone (including people from his own alliance) criticises his pretentious videos.  Andreus Anthony LeHane Ixiris CEO, Mixed Metaphor
Animated Corporate Logos |

Russell Casey
One Ton Reverberation Project
71
|
Posted - 2011.11.08 12:24:00 -
[17] - Quote
Spacing Cowboy wrote:
Stick with canflipping?
Till CCP fixes null PvP so you can catch stuff without a hotdrop, a camp or going AFK cloaked in one spot for weeks, hell yeah. When you think about it, baiting someone with a can isn't much different than baiting them with a cyno BS.
|

Spacing Cowboy
Ordo Drakonis Nulli Secunda
8
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Posted - 2011.11.08 12:30:00 -
[18] - Quote
In response , cant quote due cellphone use:
Check my relative horrible KB, im having a good time while also playing small gang and big ass slugfest blob, with a nice blackops hotdrop in the mix.
And also some losses :)
Having good pvp fun, is a case of finding a good group of people, you might have been unlucky so far. In truth, also, highsec is just not for me, its a shopping center, so im also looking with -pink- glasses at, in my eyes, the fail of highsec wardecs and the lack of fun in it |

Ptraci
3 R Corporation
78
|
Posted - 2011.11.08 12:40:00 -
[19] - Quote
XIRUSPHERE wrote:Given ccp cannot dedicate resources to policing the current dec mechanics I propose a simple solution. War is about confrontation between players and the current mechanics allow for a range of loopholes that create headaches for players and eat up resources.
When war is declared mutual kill rights should be extended to all players of said corporate entities for a fixed duration. This would make corp hopping to avoid or exploit the mechanic futile. While it is not a fix for dec shields it would certainly make war personal and stop simple mechanic exploitation.
I read this as "waaa I wanna bring PvP to players in hi sec even when they try to avoid it and the mechanics don't let me because CCP realizes that not everyone wants to fight all the time CCP make them have to fight me I want some industrial ship kill mails an Concord keeps blowing me up waaaa!"
You want to force surprise sex on people the game lets you do this, but you have to be patient, crafty, or both. But you want to change the rules to suit the way you and only you play. To that I say bugger off. |

Spacing Cowboy
Ordo Drakonis Nulli Secunda
8
|
Posted - 2011.11.08 12:48:00 -
[20] - Quote
Russell Casey wrote:Spacing Cowboy wrote:
Stick with canflipping?
Till CCP fixes null PvP so you can catch stuff without a hotdrop, a camp or going AFK cloaked in one spot for weeks, hell yeah. When you think about it, baiting someone with a can isn't much different than baiting them with a cyno BS.
But you forget to mention, that flipping a guy in a retriever aint quite the same as getting bbq'ed in a cyno bate.
The retriever guy is a new guy, the guy who gets a new ******* torn in the cyno bate picked the wrong target to mess with. |

Ptraci
3 R Corporation
78
|
Posted - 2011.11.08 12:58:00 -
[21] - Quote
Spacing Cowboy wrote:
But you forget to mention, that flipping a guy in a retriever aint quite the same as getting bbq'ed in a cyno bate.
No, to these people killing a mining barge or a transport ship is just as difficult and honorable as killing something that can actually fit a turret! I've even heard some of them say that of course it is because mining barges can fit DRONES! OMG wow tough kill... |

Spacing Cowboy
Ordo Drakonis Nulli Secunda
8
|
Posted - 2011.11.08 13:03:00 -
[22] - Quote
Damn, got trolled 7/10 i say! |

Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor
213
|
Posted - 2011.11.08 13:26:00 -
[23] - Quote
Confirming that mining barge kills take just as much effort as downing a Titan. A moment of silence, please, for all the brave souls lost in the battle to destroy rj rqeoigalf's Covetor. Andreus Anthony LeHane Ixiris CEO, Mixed Metaphor
Animated Corporate Logos |

Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
219
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Posted - 2011.11.08 13:27:00 -
[24] - Quote
Sorry but this will be along the lines of CCP's definition of greifing, which they FROWN on big time.
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Arrs Grazznic
Poena Executive Solutions
6
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Posted - 2011.11.08 13:58:00 -
[25] - Quote
When you said 'make war personal' I thought you were going to suggest that individual pilots would be able to war dec other pilots directly. But you didn't. So...
I quite like the idea of an individual pilot being able to war dec another. Similar rules to normal war dec (timers, increasing rates for more decs, etc.). Would allow you to hunt down an individual (as the instigator) or give you more scope for escape and ability to pursue your own Eve experience (as the recipient). Would also allow for future in-station conflicts once / if WiS gets here.
Flame away! |

Cailais
Rekall Incorporated
105
|
Posted - 2011.11.08 13:59:00 -
[26] - Quote
Jowen Datloran wrote:
The current high sec war mechanics far too often end up in a situation where one side (likely the aggressor) stands to gain something and maybe lose a little while the other side (the defending part) stands to lose out and gain nothing. That is a poor driver for conflict.
Although thats a very good description of why most wars have been fought for since the dawn of time 
C.
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CCP Phantom
C C P C C P Alliance
139

|
Posted - 2011.11.08 14:03:00 -
[27] - Quote
Moved from General Discussion. CCP Phantom - German Community Coordinator |
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Mara Villoso
Big Box
18
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Posted - 2011.11.08 18:49:00 -
[28] - Quote
Quote:Wardecs have always been and will always be pointless. As long as they follow the corp and not the player, they can and will be evaded. In effect, this means wardecs affect only people who care about their corp name, have a POS they can't take down quickly, and the clueless. Any change to wardecs that makes them against individuals will lead to those people leaving the game. They don't want to fight. They aren't going to fight. There is nothing you or CCP can do to make them. Period. The End. There is no fix for wardecs. Just get rid of them. Ganking is, was, and will always be the only way to get individuals.
The only failing of the change to wardec policing by the GMs is POS destruction. The only solutions that are needed are ones that make POS bashing in hisec possible. Quoting myself from another thread.
Whenever I hear about extending decs to individual pilots, I just shake my head in amazement. What is it that you think will happen? People avoid decs for a reason. They're not interested in fighting. So what happens when the war gets tagged on to the character? Do these people magically decide to change several year's worth of behavior and playstyle and come out with guns blazing? The potential for never ending griefing that goes with putting decs (or kill rights) on individuals is simply too great and its effect is all too predictable. If you want to kill something, get your ass to losec/nosec. PvP'ers in hisec are making a paradoxical argument: they want to kill whomever they please, but they don't want non-consensual PvP from anyone else. Choose one or the other; you're either for non-consensual PvP for all or for none. |

Stahlregen
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.08 19:39:00 -
[29] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:Stahlregen wrote:not much point arguing with you because you're beyond reason but hey, at least I gave it a shot. This is from the same guy who emorages and bans people from his YouTube channel every time someone (including people from his own alliance) criticises his pretentious videos. 
[citation needed] |

Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
77
|
Posted - 2011.11.09 10:45:00 -
[30] - Quote
Cailais wrote:Jowen Datloran wrote:
The current high sec war mechanics far too often end up in a situation where one side (likely the aggressor) stands to gain something and maybe lose a little while the other side (the defending part) stands to lose out and gain nothing. That is a poor driver for conflict.
Although thats a very good description of why most wars have been fought for since the dawn of time  C. To some degree. But if one side can simply steamroll the other there is not much time for conflict and it is the conflict that I am aiming at improving. Big conflicts arise when both sides stand to gain something. If one side stand to gain nothing but have a chance to evade the conflict they will do so instead. In EVEs case people always have the option to evade as they can simply stop undocking or maybe just stop playing all together. Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook-á |
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