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Rohann
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Posted - 2006.03.21 17:41:00 -
[1]
Now I know this topic is very controversial but I think I have found a balance for wcs. Ok now this thread is not about nerfing wcs in general. It is about nerfing wcs in combat. First we need to take a look at the purpose of a wcs and how it is used in combat. For this I will use the raven as an example.
Purpose: Not to get scrambled so that you may warp away safely.
Combat use: 5x wcs 6x siege 4x damps 1 scrambler. This setup is almost an I win button in combat.
Now the problem with this setup is the fact that it allows the player to produce decent amounts of dmg with low risk of getting caught.
My proposal: Give wcs penalty for combat. Something like decreasing dmg output per wcs by a significant amount. Or have each wcs give a -25% penalty to pwr grid for each one.
Now I dont mind ppl who use wcs for traveling. My biggest gripe are the ppl who use them in combat. Again I must point out this post is not about nerfing wcs in general, just in combat.
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Jenny Spitfire
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Posted - 2006.03.21 17:44:00 -
[2]
Methinks WCS and Warp scramblers +1 and +2 are the most balanced modules in EvE. Just annoying when seen in combat.
/me runs.
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RecruitMe@NOINT! |
Laythun
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Posted - 2006.03.21 17:46:00 -
[3]
not this again.
your suggestion has been suggested time and time again.
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If im flaming or not contributing im sorry, but im trying to get into th [23]
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Rohann
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Posted - 2006.03.21 17:47:00 -
[4]
Really? Well I must have missed that thread.
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Hafthor
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Posted - 2006.03.21 17:48:00 -
[5]
"If everyone is using it then it's overpowered"
Something like this was given as a reason for nerfing Cap Relays back in the day, it seems to me WCS are getting close to the top of the list for "Most used module" so maybe they should be looked at?
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"Speak softly and carry a big stick; you will go far" |
Rohann
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Posted - 2006.03.21 17:50:00 -
[6]
 Originally by: Hafthor
"If everyone is using it then it's overpowered"
Something like this was given as a reason for nerfing Cap Relays back in the day, it seems to me WCS are getting close to the top of the list for "Most used module" so maybe they should be looked at?
No that isnt the problem. The problem is that players can actively go into combat with little risk using a full rack of wcs.
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Hugh Ruka
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Posted - 2006.03.21 17:52:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Rohann
Now I know this topic is very controversial but I think I have found a balance for wcs. Ok now this thread is not about nerfing wcs in general. It is about nerfing wcs in combat. First we need to take a look at the purpose of a wcs and how it is used in combat. For this I will use the raven as an example.
Purpose: Not to get scrambled so that you may warp away safely.
Combat use: 5x wcs 6x siege 4x damps 1 scrambler. This setup is almost an I win button in combat.
Now the problem with this setup is the fact that it allows the player to produce decent amounts of dmg with low risk of getting caught.
My proposal: Give wcs penalty for combat. Something like decreasing dmg output per wcs by a significant amount. Or have each wcs give a -25% penalty to pwr grid for each one.
Now I dont mind ppl who use wcs for traveling. My biggest gripe are the ppl who use them in combat. Again I must point out this post is not about nerfing wcs in general, just in combat.
why does everybody use the raven as example ? can't you take a dominix, tempest or megathron as example ?
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Removed due to offensive content - Laqum
I realy liked my signature. Oh well ... |
Hugh Ruka
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Posted - 2006.03.21 17:53:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Hafthor
"If everyone is using it then it's overpowered"
Something like this was given as a reason for nerfing Cap Relays back in the day, it seems to me WCS are getting close to the top of the list for "Most used module" so maybe they should be looked at?
yeah, everybody is using hardeners ... same issue ?
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Removed due to offensive content - Laqum
I realy liked my signature. Oh well ... |
Manion Taleroth
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Posted - 2006.03.21 17:53:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Hafthor
"If everyone is using it then it's overpowered"
Something like this was given as a reason for nerfing Cap Relays back in the day, it seems to me WCS are getting close to the top of the list for "Most used module" so maybe they should be looked at?
I'd say that Scramblers/Disruptors are used more often than WCS. So, that line of logic would mean they are what should be nerfed.
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Rohann
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Posted - 2006.03.21 17:54:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Hugh Ruka
Originally by: Rohann
Now I know this topic is very controversial but I think I have found a balance for wcs. Ok now this thread is not about nerfing wcs in general. It is about nerfing wcs in combat. First we need to take a look at the purpose of a wcs and how it is used in combat. For this I will use the raven as an example.
Purpose: Not to get scrambled so that you may warp away safely.
Combat use: 5x wcs 6x siege 4x damps 1 scrambler. This setup is almost an I win button in combat.
Now the problem with this setup is the fact that it allows the player to produce decent amounts of dmg with low risk of getting caught.
My proposal: Give wcs penalty for combat. Something like decreasing dmg output per wcs by a significant amount. Or have each wcs give a -25% penalty to pwr grid for each one.
Now I dont mind ppl who use wcs for traveling. My biggest gripe are the ppl who use them in combat. Again I must point out this post is not about nerfing wcs in general, just in combat.
why does everybody use the raven as example ? can't you take a dominix, tempest or megathron as example ?
Um because it was an example maybe?
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Leandro Salazar
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Posted - 2006.03.21 17:54:00 -
[11]
A damage penalty for warp disruptors seems like a pretty damn good idea to me. Would not hinder me one bit when I fit them for travel, but would hinder the wusses who fit them for combat a great deal. If WCS have to be nerfed, this way would have my vote.
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Evacuate? In our moment of triumph? |
Jenny Spitfire
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Posted - 2006.03.21 17:56:00 -
[12]
Think there are generally a few setups in EvE.
1. Tank and Gank.
2. Pure Tank.
3. Pure Gank.
4. Support.
4. Gank and Run.
For some peculiar reason, most prefer 1-3. 
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RecruitMe@NOINT! |
Captain Merkin
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Posted - 2006.03.21 17:57:00 -
[13]
ARGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
can we get on with the nerf some folks can at least whinge about something else now?
Proving natural selection and Charles Darwin wrong since 1981.
The Kamikaze pilot
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Rohann
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Posted - 2006.03.21 17:59:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Captain Merkin
ARGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
can we get on with the nerf some folks can at least whinge about something else now?
Hi read my post first before opening your mouth. If you did so you would see that this isnt whining.
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Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2006.03.21 18:01:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
A damage penalty for warp disruptors seems like a pretty damn good idea to me. Would not hinder me one bit when I fit them for travel, but would hinder the wusses who fit them for combat a great deal. If WCS have to be nerfed, this way would have my vote.
I dont really see why its cowardly to escape when the odds are not in your favor. If a warp scrambler would mean that you cant escape, then i dont expect to see many battles where the aggressor is not 100% sure of winning. Where is the fun in that?
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"Automatic override. Manual control overridden by autopilot. Please wait for operation to complete. You can override the automatic autopilot override in 28 seconds. Then you can make it wait" |
Rohann
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Posted - 2006.03.21 18:02:00 -
[16]
Its easy to not get caught in EVE without wcs.
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Hugh Ruka
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Posted - 2006.03.21 18:06:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
A damage penalty for warp disruptors seems like a pretty damn good idea to me. Would not hinder me one bit when I fit them for travel, but would hinder the wusses who fit them for combat a great deal. If WCS have to be nerfed, this way would have my vote.
I dont really see why its cowardly to escape when the odds are not in your favor. If a warp scrambler would mean that you cant escape, then i dont expect to see many battles where the aggressor is not 100% sure of winning. Where is the fun in that?
you see it is exactly the ones 100% sure they win that want wcs to get nerfed.
I understand that ppl don't like stabbed combat ships, because they are hard to catch and kill, but one ship stabbed ship has sacrificed damage and/or tank to get away, so he should be no danger to a non-stabbed combat ship of same class. If there is a gang of stabbed ships, the have enough firepower to to quickly eradicate a few enemies and warp away before remaining enemy ships close range to tackle.
so I see no purpose in nerfing wcs given the above examples (ofc I am always wrong).
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Removed due to offensive content - Laqum
I realy liked my signature. Oh well ... |
Rohann
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Posted - 2006.03.21 18:09:00 -
[18]
In some cases your are correct Hugh. But take the raven example I gave. Also you can setup anyship to do it. Tempest mega whatever. 3dmg mods and 3 wcs. Raven I used because it still dishes out dmg while fully wcs'd.
On frigs wcs are useless in combat.
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Celador Nane
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Posted - 2006.03.21 18:11:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Rohann
Its easy to not get caught in EVE without wcs.
How very true.
Oh and nerf WCS + combat combo setups. (only cuz i dont use em)
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Icarus Starkiller
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Posted - 2006.03.21 18:12:00 -
[20]
WCS: +1 warp core str, +15% to maneuverability, -10% to scan resolution(each), -5% to weapon ROF (each).
That makes them a hauler's best friend, but makes it highly problematic to fit many on a combat ship.
WCS II: +1.5 warp core str, +20% maneuverability, -12% scan resolution, -6% ROF
Warp Matrix Generator: High slot, single fit limitation, +1 str per WCS II equipped. All weapons offlined while active (when active remains online passively). +25% warp speed.
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ISK Pharmers & Alt spies: A solution
Life is pain...anyone who says differently is selling something. |
Jenny Spitfire
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Posted - 2006.03.21 18:15:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Rohann
In some cases your are correct Hugh. But take the raven example I gave. Also you can setup anyship to do it. Tempest mega whatever. 3dmg mods and 3 wcs. Raven I used because it still dishes out dmg while fully wcs'd.
On frigs wcs are useless in combat.
How to compare a Missile boat vs a Turret boat? It is like cat and dog. One insta-damage, the other is delayed-damage.
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RecruitMe@NOINT! |
Rohann
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Posted - 2006.03.21 18:17:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Originally by: Rohann
In some cases your are correct Hugh. But take the raven example I gave. Also you can setup anyship to do it. Tempest mega whatever. 3dmg mods and 3 wcs. Raven I used because it still dishes out dmg while fully wcs'd.
On frigs wcs are useless in combat.
How to compare a Missile boat vs a Turret boat? It is like cat and dog. One insta-damage, the other is delayed-damage.
I am not comparing shiptypes here. Please REREAD the thread. I am giving examples. The fact that missles are not instant dmg does not change the issue of wcs on combat ships.
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Hugh Ruka
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Posted - 2006.03.21 18:18:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Rohann
In some cases your are correct Hugh. But take the raven example I gave. Also you can setup anyship to do it. Tempest mega whatever. 3dmg mods and 3 wcs. Raven I used because it still dishes out dmg while fully wcs'd.
On frigs wcs are useless in combat.
taken the raven,
if he ganks you, you are your locktime behind in damage, so you will die anyway, or drive him off if you have enought tank and damage, so you survive and he does not get the kill, draw game (nobody lost)
if you gank him, he wants to get away because he is losing, normal reaction, this time you may feel that you had the "right" to kill him (lets call it "winning experience"), this time he wins and it's the purpose why he did fit wcs, both are still alive again
in larger numbers, it's the same only in dark blue
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Removed due to offensive content - Laqum
I realy liked my signature. Oh well ... |
Jenny Spitfire
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Posted - 2006.03.21 18:18:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 21/03/2006 18:17:40
Originally by: Rohann
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Originally by: Rohann
In some cases your are correct Hugh. But take the raven example I gave. Also you can setup anyship to do it. Tempest mega whatever. 3dmg mods and 3 wcs. Raven I used because it still dishes out dmg while fully wcs'd.
On frigs wcs are useless in combat.
How to compare a Missile boat vs a Turret boat? It is like cat and dog. One insta-damage, the other is delayed-damage.
I am not comparing shiptypes here. Please REREAD the thread. I am giving examples. The fact that missles are not instant dmg does not change the issue of wcs on combat ships.
I know but your examples are bad. Why not compare same class ships, like Tempest and Apoc?
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RecruitMe@NOINT! |
Rohann
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Posted - 2006.03.21 18:20:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 21/03/2006 18:17:40
Originally by: Rohann
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Originally by: Rohann
In some cases your are correct Hugh. But take the raven example I gave. Also you can setup anyship to do it. Tempest mega whatever. 3dmg mods and 3 wcs. Raven I used because it still dishes out dmg while fully wcs'd.
On frigs wcs are useless in combat.
How to compare a Missile boat vs a Turret boat? It is like cat and dog. One insta-damage, the other is delayed-damage.
I am not comparing shiptypes here. Please REREAD the thread. I am giving examples. The fact that missles are not instant dmg does not change the issue of wcs on combat ships.
I know but your examples are bad. Why not compare same class ships, like Tempest and Apoc?
I did
Quote:
In some cases your are correct Hugh. But take the raven example I gave. Also you can setup anyship to do it. Tempest mega whatever. 3dmg mods and 3 wcs. Raven I used because it still dishes out dmg while fully wcs'd.
On frigs wcs are useless in combat.
See?
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Ghastion Vlain
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Posted - 2006.03.21 18:21:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Icarus Starkiller
WCS: +1 warp core str, +15% to maneuverability, -10% to scan resolution(each), -5% to weapon ROF (each).
That makes them a hauler's best friend, but makes it highly problematic to fit many on a combat ship.
WCS II: +1.5 warp core str, +20% maneuverability, -12% scan resolution, -6% ROF
Warp Matrix Generator: High slot, single fit limitation, +1 str per WCS II equipped. All weapons offlined while active (when active remains online passively). +25% warp speed.
That would make ships with instas practically unstoppable, like a geddon with 8 nanos, and 8 WCS's :(
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Mag's
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Posted - 2006.03.21 18:26:00 -
[27]
Oh no not again.
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Hafthor
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Posted - 2006.03.21 18:27:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Hafthor on 21/03/2006 18:32:38
Originally by: Rohann
No that isnt the problem. The problem is that players can actively go into combat with little risk using a full rack of wcs.
Yes, thats why they should maybe get looked at?
Originally by: Manion Taleroth
I'd say that Scramblers/Disruptors are used more often than WCS. So, that line of logic would mean they are what should be nerfed.
The reason they are used to the extent they are is partly the cause for WCS being used so much and vice versa no?
Originally by: Hugh Ruka
yeah, everybody is using hardeners ... same issue ?
I see way more people complaining about WCS than hardeners, maybe because not everyone is using just one type of hardener and hardeners have stacking penalties and quite a lot of people don't fit hardeners at all?
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The whole thing with the Raven being so often used as an example is this,
for Raven
Shield tank + WCS + heavy damage = no prob
EW + WCS + heavy damage = no prob
scrambling + WCS + heavyu damage = no prob
Same goes for the Dominix to some extent but it's better at armor tanking and has less cap so it's not as big an issue
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"Speak softly and carry a big stick; you will go far" |
Jenny Spitfire
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Posted - 2006.03.21 18:34:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Rohann
Quote:
In some cases your are correct Hugh. But take the raven example I gave. Also you can setup anyship to do it. Tempest mega whatever. 3dmg mods and 3 wcs. Raven I used because it still dishes out dmg while fully wcs'd.
On frigs wcs are useless in combat.
See?
Flawed logic.
1. Bad comparisons.
2. Turret boats vs Missile boats.
3. Midslots vs lowslots.
4. Insta-dmg vs delayed-dmg roles.
A better one would be, Mega and Tempest without bringing Raven into the scene. Raven is different. Thinking about it, turret boats snipe and insta kill small ships. Missile boats snipe and small ships warp away. Back to the question, dont compare cat and dog.
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RecruitMe@NOINT! |
Mazad
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Posted - 2006.03.21 18:34:00 -
[30]
WCS should require activating. Once activated they give a percentage chance of actually 'stabilizing' the warp core (stacking penalty and skills effect the chance etc). If they do, you escape. If not...
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