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Everything at once! Counter to slowcats, blobbing, etc...

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Altrue Exploration Frontier inc Brave Collective 890	Posted - 2014.01.22 09:08:00 - [1] - Quote Hey! So based on the mechanic of the Target Spectrum Breaker, what do you think of an AoE module that uses multiple shield oscillation frequency to increase its own power. Or gameplay wise, an AOE module like a smartbomb, with more range, that has a very low base efficiency, increasing exponentially according to the number of ships surrounding you. So the more packed and numerous you are, the more damages you take. Easy, elegant, provides a counter to slowcats that isn't "even more slowcats" or "suicide alpha dreads". Make the individual player have to manage its own piloting instead of being an F1 monkey. And of course it needs proper balance to be a real threat to blobs, without affecting medium or small gang pve. Also the ships using these modules against a blob will probably die in the process because they'd do insane amount of damages to themselves as well. As long as you do not have to bring as many people as the blob you're trying to kill, it seems balanced too loose these. Signature Tanking - Best Tanking.
Seranova Farreach 619	Posted - 2014.01.22 09:12:00 - [2] - Quote how about make it so when a ship explodes it is like hull ehp as aoe dmg in an area that is equal to sig radius x (mass/100) or something? that way people may not like to stay in each others pockets edit. i fail at math but you get the idea. _______________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg
Altrue Exploration Frontier inc Brave Collective 890	Posted - 2014.01.22 09:26:00 - [3] - Quote Seranova Farreach wrote: how about make it so when a ship explodes it is like hull ehp as aoe dmg in an area that is equal to sig radius x (mass/100) or something? that way people may not like to stay in each others pockets edit. i fail at math but you get the idea. That would be very true and even more elegant :D Signature Tanking - Best Tanking.
Lephia DeGrande Luxembourg Space Union 189	Posted - 2014.01.22 09:48:00 - [4] - Quote It would be cool if there was a frig or destroyer only weapon against Capitals (sure bombs) but simpler and less specific. I dont mind blobs but i want more small ships besides Stealth Bombers.
Ronny Hugo Dark Fusion Industries Limitless Inc. 42	Posted - 2014.01.22 09:55:00 - [5] - Quote A soldier sits there pressing F1 if that is what the commander commands. When groups of people clash together they act like two organisms, like the shield wall shown in the movie 300. But the 300s only work because they work as an organism instead of 300 individual heroes. The solo-kills in the middle of the battle when one pushes forward and cuts through rushing enemy soldiers would not happen in RL because if one person leaves the wall then the wall (organism) is weakened. Leaving ones position in the military formation was historically punished, even was a capital crime with death as punishment in some regions. Consider it the medieval equivalent of bumping the blue Titan. In other words, if you wish to counter blobs, no amount of single brave or skilled person will do it, only large groups can defeat other large groups. The slowcat fleets make smaller fleets irrelevant, you can position yourself and do whatever you want with small numbers and it won't hurt a slowcat fleet (organism). How is this a broken mechanic? It just means that is the apex organism until another organism takes over. My guess is artillery naglfars in large blobs will be the next apex fleet that hunts slowcat organisms until someone evolves an organism (fleet) that can hunt arti nag fleets.
Sigras Conglomo 660	Posted - 2014.01.22 10:23:00 - [6] - Quote The problem is when BIG is only countered by BIGGER then BIGGEST always wins. From a game design standpoint that is a broken game. Remember that this is a game, and gameplay is more important than realism. This is the same reason they did the speed changes back in 2008, when FAST is only countered by FASTER then FASTEST always wins, and that just ends up with nobody ever flying anything else. Think about it this way. Pretend with me that supercarriers were completely unbeatable unless you had a larger force of supercarriers (i know it isnt accurate, but we're pretending for the sake of the argument). If that were the case then whoever had the most supercarriers would always win and nobody would ever fly anything other than supercarriers right? See the problem?
Altrue Exploration Frontier inc Brave Collective 890	Posted - 2014.01.22 10:26:00 - [7] - Quote Precisely, and having a gameplay mechanism that makes being too big becoming risky would rebalance that. Obviously there won't ever be any collision damage to Eve, that would be insane in a bad way. However, death damages could be considered :D Maybe disable them for deaths due to bomb damages, for obvious snowball reasons... Signature Tanking - Best Tanking.
Danika Princip Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team 2335	Posted - 2014.01.22 10:41:00 - [8] - Quote It could be a titan only module! And it could be fired through cynos too!
Altrue Exploration Frontier inc Brave Collective 890	Posted - 2014.01.22 10:45:00 - [9] - Quote Danika Princip wrote: It could be a titan only module! And it could be fired through cynos too! Slowcat pilot spotted Signature Tanking - Best Tanking.
Unkind Omen Russian Thunder Squad Darkness of Despair 37	Posted - 2014.01.22 11:45:00 - [10] - Quote Wont help against 4k people in one grid. They will just have to orbit anchor(squad-wing target caller) that orbits another anchor at say 70 km. The only way to fix blobbing is to make incentive to be in different systems (and different grids) at the same time while defending one. There already was a proposal to make sovereignty constellation-based. Another option is to replace "deal damage to capture" system with more conventional capture and hold where you just have to be present(imagine hacking concord database) with at least 1 ship around capture point to overtake it assuming there are no enemies around this point. I personally think that it would be great in addition to current system to let corporation that controls ihub in the system repair it during reinforce timer by completing FW-like complexes that will randomly spawn in the same constellation. To the contrary any other corporation will be able to remove that restored armor/shield by capturing other plexes. This way players will have to organize into small groups and defend system by being present in different points over several hours allowing agressor to have some forced pvp. The main point is that even if one of the sides assembles blob it would be not the most efficient way to capture more plexes than the other side as blobs will have issues with mobility potentially capturing only one plex at a time while wolfpacks capture 4-5 at the same time. Another important balancing issue - the efficiency of defending the system in such way should depend on the amount of ihubs controlled by the corporation at the moment when ihub/station enters first reinforce.
Altrue Exploration Frontier inc Brave Collective 890	Posted - 2014.01.22 11:51:00 - [11] - Quote Unkind Omen wrote: Wont help against 4k people in one grid. They will just have to orbit anchor(squad-wing target caller) that orbits another anchor at say 70 km. Well I have no problem with blobs using their brain to avoid proximity explosions... There can be a counter to a counter, why not :D And it will be harder to do with slowcats. Signature Tanking - Best Tanking.
Unkind Omen Russian Thunder Squad Darkness of Despair 37	Posted - 2014.01.22 11:53:00 - [12] - Quote Altrue wrote: Unkind Omen wrote: Wont help against 4k people in one grid. They will just have to orbit anchor(squad-wing target caller) that orbits another anchor at say 70 km. Well I have no problem with blobs using their brain to avoid proximity explosions... There can be a counter to a counter, why not :D And it will be harder to do with slowcats. Half of solution wont work in this case. IF not the lagging the bomber wings would have been causing more than enough aoe damage to counter any blob. But it DOES lag.
Altrue Exploration Frontier inc Brave Collective 891	Posted - 2014.01.22 11:58:00 - [13] - Quote Unkind Omen wrote: IF not [the lagging] the bomber wings would have been causing more than enough aoe damage to counter any blob. But it DOES lag. Not necessarily, bombs are designed to kill subcaps, not caps. The damage of a cap dying should be way more important than the one of a bomb exploding. Of course it would also need to be balanced properly to avoid brawlers being nerfed into existence... Maybe a damage proportional to sig radiu/mass AND with an explosion radius equal to the sig radius of the ship before it died. Just like bombs have a fixed explosion radius. Signature Tanking - Best Tanking.
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 955	Posted - 2014.01.22 12:00:00 - [14] - Quote If ship deaths cause damage, you just made risk free ganking true. Hence why it will never work.
Unkind Omen Russian Thunder Squad Darkness of Despair 37	Posted - 2014.01.22 12:04:00 - [15] - Quote Altrue wrote: Unkind Omen wrote: IF not [the lagging] the bomber wings would have been causing more than enough aoe damage to counter any blob. But it DOES lag. Not necessarily, bombs are designed to kill subcaps, not caps. The damage of a cap dying should be way more important than the one of a bomb exploding. Of course it would also need to be balanced properly to avoid brawlers being nerfed into existence... Maybe a damage proportional to sig radiu/mass AND with an explosion radius equal to the sig radius of the ship before it died. Just like bombs have a fixed explosion radius. You start with presumption that you already killed at least one of those ships. But how you are planning to do that if your subcap fleet cant alfastrike slowcat anyway(Why they would need any aoe damage if they can....), and your caps/supers cant enter system because of cynojammer/server overflow.
Corraidhin Farsaidh Hello-There 133	Posted - 2014.01.22 12:11:00 - [16] - Quote Taking the analogy of the slowcat as a phalanx i.e strong point attack (where the shield lines meet) and strong shared defence. You can do nothing about the strong point attack but it can only be applied oin one place every 4 seconds (or however long). This leaves the tank. Attack and break the tank and you can start to roll up the fleet. How about a fleet of blops in support of the dreads? Jump in and target break a group of carriers to break the tank in a localized are, then concentrate groups of dread fire on multiple carriers. This would rely on being able to take out a few carriers at a time and the blops ships jumping out again before being minced (mjjd's could be handy here). I'm sure the fleet folks can come up with something better, but the key is to use the equivalent of fast hard-hitting cavalry to punch holes in the shield wall (tank). Hit and run tactics were the death of phalanx groups on more than one occasion. Failing that build a space trebuchet...
Unkind Omen Russian Thunder Squad Darkness of Despair 37	Posted - 2014.01.22 12:19:00 - [17] - Quote Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: How about a fleet of blops in support of the dreads? Jump in and target break a group of carriers to break the tank in a localized are, then concentrate groups of dread fire on multiple carriers. . Gravimetric Sensor Strength 80 points Plus potentially up to 2 ECCM if they just feel they are getting jammed as they can refit instantly. Should I also mention that BLops will die at rate of one per 4 second of game time?
Corraidhin Farsaidh Hello-There 133	Posted - 2014.01.22 13:03:00 - [18] - Quote And if the Blops carry Target Spectrum Breakers? Sidle up to the carriers and get passive locks then uncloak and lock each other to cause mass targeting disruption before hitting the carriers? In effect it would be spider jamming I guess. Just throwing ideas around mainly from interest and to learn as I haven't been in large scale fleet combat yet
Frank Pannon Fallen Supremacy SCUM. 97	Posted - 2014.01.22 13:10:00 - [19] - Quote I fear that if exploding ships would cause damage, in it's current state it would fry the servers with all the addtional computing to be done. They seem to have capacity issues already as it is.
Kenrailae Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships. 140	Posted - 2014.01.22 13:12:00 - [20] - Quote Ronny Hugo wrote: In other words, if you wish to counter blobs, no amount of single brave or skilled person will do it, only large groups can defeat other large groups. I have to disagree with this mentality completely. Historically speaking, 1 well skilled individual could change the course of history. That Eve fails to incorporate properly and adequately is one of the few real disappointments I have in this game. A ninja assassinating the right target could bring a clan to its knees, for example. Eve's only way to really do this right now is corporate sabotage, requiring roles etc. I would REALLY like to see specialist ships that give 0 ducks about POS shields, for instance, and go straight for sabotage, like temporarily shutting down jump bridges, or freezing a POS's processes, or heck, even jamming a Titan's Jump portal. It would be Hella crazy to try and balance, I get it, but the mentality that the only way to fight a blob is with a blob is wrong. The Law is a point of View
Altrue Exploration Frontier inc Brave Collective 892	Posted - 2014.01.22 13:20:00 - [21] - Quote Unkind Omen wrote: You start with presumption that you already killed at least one of those ships. But how you are planning to do that if your subcap fleet cant alfastrike slowcat anyway(Why they would need any aoe damage if they can....) The goal is not to make slowcat impossible, just a little more vulnerable. Thus if one slowcat were to die, every other slowcate would take significant damages, making another slowcat alpha easier by a nice margin. And so on. If you do not pay attention, quickly your slowcat fleet tank will slip out of your fingers. But yes it would still be hard to get the first kill. That's legitimate. Nevyn Auscent wrote: If ship deaths cause damage, you just made risk free ganking true. Hence why it will never work. If you're talking about high-sec ganking, just make sure that ship explosions don't damage other ships the victim couldn't aggress without concord intervention. So ship explosion damage would only hit suspects, criminals, war targets, and limited engagement targets. And even without that, I don't see how it would be risk free. You would still have to loose expensive large ships (with big sig radius and big mass) to really do enough damage to kill something in one shot. That's not risk free and people would still prefer to gank shuttles in trashers. Frank Pannon wrote: I fear that if exploding ships would cause damage, in it's current state it would fry the servers with all the addtional computing to be done. They seem to have capacity issues already as it is. Well you can already bomb so it couldn't be worse. And on the long run it would certainly generate less load than if two blobs were fighting with only a couple of ship deaths each our. At least here people would die more quickly. Edit : Also there is a point where you cannot just cancel a mechanic because "it generates lag". Lag is generated by pilots participating in a fight. Pilots are participating in ridiculously large numbers because blobbing is encouraged by current game mechanics. Because due to the amount of TiDi they can come, then afk 30 minuts, nobody will notice. Signature Tanking - Best Tanking.
Unkind Omen Russian Thunder Squad Darkness of Despair 37	Posted - 2014.01.22 14:19:00 - [22] - Quote Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: And if the Blops carry Target Spectrum Breakers? Sidle up to the carriers and get passive locks then uncloak and lock each other to cause mass targeting disruption before hitting the carriers? In effect it would be spider jamming I guess. Just throwing ideas around mainly from interest and to learn as I haven't been in large scale fleet combat yet TSB only affect people that target your ship. And slowcats will never lock you they have assist for that. So its not an ECM burst. The latter one can infact be used against some blobs if projected from a mothership as any subcap carrying that stuff is a suicide runner as you can fit only 1 per ship no specialized suicide burster possible. A fleet of BS sitting on top of each other will just permajam itself. You can jam 320 sensor strength reliably if you have 30 motherships on the field. In fact the chance is 25/320 = 7.8% per activation from one mothership. (Ignoring skills and modules on both sides.) And the chance to jam each carrier is 1 - (1-7.8%)^30 = 91% approx which can be considered a success.
X Gallentius Justified Chaos 1979	Posted - 2014.01.22 16:56:00 - [23] - Quote Kenrailae wrote: I have to disagree with this mentality completely. Historically speaking, 1 well skilled individual could change the course of history This guy is called the FC.
Kenrailae Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships. 143	Posted - 2014.01.22 19:01:00 - [24] - Quote X Gallentius wrote: Kenrailae wrote: I have to disagree with this mentality completely. Historically speaking, 1 well skilled individual could change the course of history This guy is called the FC. In standard operations, yes. And that's exactly what I mean. Eve doesn't really have a means of sabotaging this. By assassination, sabotage, or otherwise. Really the only way to do it in Eve is either kick him from corp/TS, jam/damp him, or bribe him. That's not what I'm saying though. The mentality in question is the 'Bring a blob to beat a blob' mentality. While pilot skill will overcome some differences, while FC skill will overcome some disadvantages, there is a very real point where the blob mentality will always win out. Without having roles to kick key people from fleet/TS/Corp, or without buying them, Eve has few ways to really disrupt operations that don't ultimately end in the 'bring a bigger blob' approach. So, you could continue to view the game as a 'FC says shoot all the monkeys press F1' as you did when you came back with the 'This guy is called the FC' comment.... Or..... look and see just how many ways you can get in and really mess up your adversaries day.... and find they are surprisingly lacking. I don't claim they'd be at all easy to implement, but there is an entire field here where CCP could develop. It's just kinda sad that it's not done. The Law is a point of View
Altrue Exploration Frontier inc Brave Collective 943	Posted - 2014.01.27 08:58:00 - [25] - Quote Whoops it seems that I was right! The HED devblog clearly explains how bad for the server it is to make sure that people see things happening. Signature Tanking - Best Tanking.
Danika Princip Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team 2362	Posted - 2014.01.27 13:10:00 - [26] - Quote Altrue wrote: If you're talking about high-sec ganking, just make sure that ship explosions don't damage other ships the victim couldn't aggress without concord intervention. So ship explosion damage would only hit suspects, criminals, war targets, and limited engagement targets. And even without that, I don't see how it would be risk free. You would still have to loose expensive large ships (with big sig radius and big mass) to really do enough damage to kill something in one shot. That's not risk free and people would still prefer to gank shuttles in trashers. How on earth would you explain that one? Explosions are pretty indiscriminate. Bombs, smartbombs, old AOE DDs, ECM bursts and their remote versions are/were all AoE effects, and they hit everyone equally. Why should this kind of AoE damage be different?
Altrue Exploration Frontier inc Brave Collective 945	Posted - 2014.01.27 13:24:00 - [27] - Quote Because you loose the ship used to do the damage, ship that would necessarily have to be more and more expensive as the damage you want to make increase, because as I said it would be linked to your sig radius + mass, or ship class or whatever. So yeah there is a pretty big difference, because every other case does not involve the unavoidable destruction of your ship. Thus the "risk free" comment is wrong. Signature Tanking - Best Tanking.
Kagura Nikon Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness 1181	Posted - 2014.01.27 13:25:00 - [28] - Quote Seranova Farreach wrote: how about make it so when a ship explodes it is like hull ehp as aoe dmg in an area that is equal to sig radius x (mass/100) or something? that way people may not like to stay in each others pockets edit. i fail at math but you get the idea. and you make blaster frigates 100% useless like that? Think more... "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!"
Altrue Exploration Frontier inc Brave Collective 945	Posted - 2014.01.27 13:31:00 - [29] - Quote As I said, the problem can be solved by making the explosion have an explosion radius (just like bombs) relative to the ship base sig radius before its death. Of course it would still make more damages than bombs on non-MWDing frigates, the damage should be tweaked so that blaster frigates could withstand one (T1) or two (T2) battleship explosions in a row if they put a bit of tank. Signature Tanking - Best Tanking.
Anthar Thebess REPUBLIKA ORLA C0VEN 326	Posted - 2014.01.27 13:54:00 - [30] - Quote Better - lets put AOE doomsday that can be mounted on Poses. Pos Gunner with proper skills can operate this kind of weapons. They can hit any place in the system , and as reference point they use cyno beacons. In order to have one you need only lvl 5 strategic. Think about the usage - no more bloobs, no more slowcats , no more supers, no more ratting ships! . Just cyno and clear whole anomaly in 1 shot! Ah sorry AOE weapon is a relay bad idea.... You want to change in eve? - Limit capital ships mobility or force carrier to be "sieged" when using sentry drones. - Remove current drone assist mechanic - Remove or limit JumpBridges and titan bridges If it will be hard for blobs to move to the other side of eve - every smaller alliance will have possibility to claim small part of eve space. Now the only possibility to have sov is be blue to half of eve or rent. -=Reopening old corporations=- Do you have old and closed corporation and like to reopen it? Like this topic and keep it on the top by posting.

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