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Vortex Freeman	Posted - 2006.03.27 07:29:00 - [1] Edited by: Vortex Freeman on 27/03/2006 07:37:13 It seems that Covert Op ships are overpowered in the game now. Here are a few suggestions on how to make it more balanced. Omnidirectional Particle Bomb Like a smartbomb, harmless to ordinary ships but destabilizes a cloak field to the point of collapse. 25% chance of success which decrease with range. 7.5k optimal range with a falloff of 12.5k, cycle time 30 seconds. Cloak Field Destabilizer A EW module able to disable a cloak generator for a certain amount of time. Target ship has to be locked and module activated. After successful interference of the Cloak Generator on the target ship it will be disabled for x amount of time. Advanced Probes Probes specialized for finding cloaked vessels. Able to pinpoint the location of a cloaked ship. Chance of detection skill dependant. Tracker Drones Specialized drones that search the local space for cloaked ships. Maybe a Fighter drone variant that would be able to follow a cloaked target in warp with the additional option 'warp to' in the drone menu? Chance and speed of detection skill dependant. These mods are intended to give a frigate gang the tools needed to successfully search for, detect and destroy Covert Op ships. Balancing these mods is very important, we wouldn't want to nerf the cov op ships. They should be advanced mods (high skill requirements) and not very effective unless you have very high skills for using them. --- <S> ~ Preparatus Supervivet ~
Sir Juri	Posted - 2006.03.27 08:59:00 - [2] Edited by: Sir Juri on 27/03/2006 08:59:14 they aint overpowered! Im a noob, bear with me :P
Rod Blaine	Posted - 2006.03.27 10:43:00 - [3] What exactly is overpowered about them ? I can think of one single thing only: covert ops chars sitting cloaked in a system purely to put the fear of being ganked into the locals. I agree that this use is somewhat lame, and therefore would say that cloaks could well be adapted to shut themselves down once every 20 minutes or so. If you are active, that's no problem. If you are afk and cloaked, it is. Et voila. Power to the players !
Steven Dynahir	Posted - 2006.03.27 10:44:00 - [4] Tried this? 1. Use fast frigate to orbit at 200km 2. Lock snowball launcher 3. Fire --- Sell orders
DeckardIRL	Posted - 2006.03.27 10:52:00 - [5] Good Grief , Another whinging forum topic..... CovertOps overpowered because they can cloak.... indeed... the countermeasure to cloaking is to come within 2km of it.... nothing else is required.... a cloak is a cloak is a cloak.... please help me find the cloaked ships Look stealth bombers already got nerfed that they are useless and are no longer stealth bombers- all they are now are small ships that have a couple of big guns- they cant even use covert ops cloaks..... Please would a forum administrator kill this topic.... Deckard ______________________________________________ Watchin' the Game.... Havin' a Bud.... I shoot better on Bud.....
Laythun	Posted - 2006.03.27 11:03:00 - [6] u do know that ANYTHING uncloaks u cans drones ships belts dust cloads duc tape BIoMASS floating in space etc --------------------------------------------- If im flaming or not contributing im sorry, but im trying to get into th [23]
Mooha182	Posted - 2006.03.27 13:26:00 - [7] Originally by: Laythun u do know that ANYTHING uncloaks u cans drones ships belts dust cloads duc tape BIoMASS floating in space etc But really, how often will a cov ops decide to come in at 15km and run into your drones and stuff. And using cans to decloak is an exploit btw.
Vortex Freeman	Posted - 2006.03.27 15:30:00 - [8] Amazing how people get hung up about the term 'overpowered'. Seems to me you're all afraid of Cov Ops ships getting 'nerfed'. It's not so much a question of Cov Ops being overpowered as the fact that there needs to be some kind of countermeasure to balance gameplay. The tools I suggested here are some ideas how to make it balanced. So stop whining already. The fact is that if you're a skilled pilot using a cov ops as the Buzzard, Helios or equivalent, you will not get caught unless very unlucky. You can roam free in hostile space without having to worry about much at all. Even if it's a region of space you've never been before, just log in when the area is low populated to make bookmarks and you're set, won't have to worry about a thing as long as you use the bookmarks. The tools suggested here are designed so that you can actively go out and hunt a covops if you know he's in system. Success rate should be low unless you have extreme skills using the mods, but they should pose a threat big enough to prevent the covops to operate without troubles. No more whiners please. --- <S> ~ Preparatus Supervivet ~
Rod Blaine	Posted - 2006.03.27 15:47:00 - [9] The issue is that even if a covops is more or less invulnerable when used carefully and with skill, that in itself is not a problem. After all, on their own, the ships that can use covert ops cloaks are not that usefull. It'when they function as foward part of a larger group that they become so, and then the rest of that group is still open to all normal ways of countering. What worries me most about these anti-cloak mechanics proposed is that exactly those main roles for covert ops craft: scouting, surprise scrambling and setting up warpinpoints would be the roles hit hardest by their nerfing. That's something I wouldnt want to see. Power to the players !
Vortex Freeman	Posted - 2006.03.27 15:59:00 - [10] Originally by: Rod Blaine The issue is that even if a covops is more or less invulnerable when used carefully and with skill, that in itself is not a problem. After all, on their own, the ships that can use covert ops cloaks are not that usefull. It'when they function as foward part of a larger group that they become so, and then the rest of that group is still open to all normal ways of countering. What worries me most about these anti-cloak mechanics proposed is that exactly those main roles for covert ops craft: scouting, surprise scrambling and setting up warpinpoints would be the roles hit hardest by their nerfing. That's something I wouldnt want to see. While I agree with that, at the same time I want to be able to purge a system of covops ships. A covop frigate shouldn't be able to sit in your home system for weeks collecting intel without being afraid of getting killed. With current game mechanics there's always a chance you catch him, but that chance is very slim. So instead of watching and waiting for the covops pilot to make a mistake, it'd be nice to put some pressure on him. --- <S> ~ Preparatus Supervivet ~
Mihail d'Amour	Posted - 2006.03.27 18:19:00 - [11] Edited by: Mihail d''Amour on 27/03/2006 18:20:41 Here's the issue, you're taking a well-balanced ship like the cov-ops and a last-resort defensive-only tool like the cloak and suggesting a counter fro something that is, quite frankly, a very weak counter itself. Before making cloaks less useful a case should be made that they are unbalancing the game, as making them useless unbalances the game in my eyes. How are cloaks making ships more dangerous? Why isn't every pirate in the universe flying covert ops ships if they are so amazingly powerful?
Vortex Freeman	Posted - 2006.03.27 19:10:00 - [12] Edited by: Vortex Freeman on 27/03/2006 19:13:10 Originally by: Mihail d'Amour Edited by: Mihail d''Amour on 27/03/2006 18:20:41 Here's the issue, you're taking a well-balanced ship like the cov-ops and a last-resort defensive-only tool like the cloak and suggesting a counter fro something that is, quite frankly, a very weak counter itself. Before making cloaks less useful a case should be made that they are unbalancing the game, as making them useless unbalances the game in my eyes. How are cloaks making ships more dangerous? Why isn't every pirate in the universe flying covert ops ships if they are so amazingly powerful? Powerful? CovertOps ships aren't powerful that's not the problem. I see your point but that's not what I'm getting at here. It's the fact that a covops recon frigate can penetrate hostile airspace without a hitch, not a problem in itself, the problem is that the pilot can remain in hostile airspace for as long as he please without running a risk of being destroyed. Of course he can be destroyed, that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that in 99% of the cases a covops recon is destroyed it's because of the pilot's own stupidity or just plain bad luck. There needs to be a way to hunt covop ships. It doesn't have to be very effective, it shouldn't even be very effective. Just effective enough to cause problems for covops pilots. --- <S> ~ Preparatus Supervivet ~
Mihail d'Amour	Posted - 2006.03.27 19:56:00 - [13] The cov-ops is a recon ship, it should be hard to find/catch. That's the point. That's why it isn't a very good fighter. Recon ships and freighter/transports should only be able to be destroyed if the pilot does something stupid or is very unlucky. That's the reason these ships don't have any real combat potential, and the trade-off for the lack of offensive ability should be a considerable boost to defense. The exception I might suggest is for a POS to have the ability to pulse randomly and disrupt the cloaking of nearby (I use near loosely) ships with the right array installed. Smartbombs already fill this role for ships. And cov-ops aren't the only ones that would be affected. Hauling in low sec would become almost impossible if any dork with a free medium slot could make cloaks useless...
Lygos	Posted - 2006.03.27 20:33:00 - [14] If we are going to use an anticloak module, it cannot become a pro-blobbing tool. That would defeat the point. -Any tool which detects a cloak can only function if no other ships are around (in grid) except the person who activates it. Ergo not a fleet tool. -It is better off as a deployed module than a ship module, basically as a means only accessible to defenders or very well prepared assailants. Basically 1000m3 so it either requires an industrial or an Exequeror. -Any anti-cloak probing tools should be POS-based, and take about 15minutes. TBH, the 20min rule is alot simpler, especially if it has a 1min warning popup before hand. A 4-5minute cooldown (shortened by meta cloaks) between activations isn't a poor idea either. At least on the covert ops cloak. I'm not sure that the stealth bombers need this burden. The afk cloaker business does suck although it is one of my most favorite means of scoring a gank. --- Set Orbit Eunoia: The persistent suspicion that the universe is secretly conspiring to quietly improve one's life
Mihail d'Amour	Posted - 2006.03.27 20:49:00 - [15] If we are going to call this a 'defense' measure for controlled space, how about a station array that, when fired (at great cost of ice products and uranium) disrupts all operating cloaks in the system for a duration (say 5 minutes). This system would be CPU and power intensive (requires a good sized tower to operate, since we are talking about holding a sytem that is yours), ideally something like 8000 CPU with a 50% CPU reduction for sovereignty. And a serious cooldown that does not continue while the unit is offlined (something around 120 minutes). This meets all the requirements of letting system 'owners' defend their system against those dreadful covops fleets without eliminating the cloak's utility outright.
Paddy Murphy	Posted - 2006.03.27 22:30:00 - [16] Originally by: Mihail d'Amour If we are going to call this a 'defense' measure for controlled space, how about a station array that, when fired (at great cost of ice products and uranium) disrupts all operating cloaks in the system for a duration (say 5 minutes) SNIP Mihail is right. As to the OPs implication that covops ships are overpowered, try flying one. They have armor so thin that civillian weapons can take you into structure with a few good shots. * Originally by:** Paddy Murphy Edited, snide remarks about mods can be made here [email protected] -Dyvim
Vortex Freeman	Posted - 2006.03.28 00:25:00 - [17] Originally by: Mihail d'Amour If we are going to call this a 'defense' measure for controlled space, how about a station array that, when fired (at great cost of ice products and uranium) disrupts all operating cloaks in the system for a duration (say 5 minutes). This system would be CPU and power intensive (requires a good sized tower to operate, since we are talking about holding a sytem that is yours), ideally something like 8000 CPU with a 50% CPU reduction for sovereignty. And a serious cooldown that does not continue while the unit is offlined (something around 120 minutes). This meets all the requirements of letting system 'owners' defend their system against those dreadful covops fleets without eliminating the cloak's utility outright. I like this idea, although 120 minutes to cooldown is a bit grim. As far as the 'overpowered' bit goes, covops ships aren't overpowered, it was bad choice of words on my part. They're more invulnerable than anything else (speaking of the covops recon only, buzzard, helios etc). --- <S> ~ Preparatus Supervivet ~
Viktor Fyretracker	Posted - 2006.03.28 01:20:00 - [18] how about you over-paranoid 0.0 space owners open the borders then, even for pure explorers who arent there for intel have to use a covert ops because you pop shuttles. whats the point of 5000 systems when people cant be free roaming explorers.
Alsthana Leameur	Posted - 2006.03.28 05:10:00 - [19] ok.. noone seems to get covert ops.. Covert Ops. This means operations with a goal to gather information for an upcoming event (like a gank). they arent designed to fight. theyre designed to hide and spy. they CANT fight, whatsoever. their advantage is launching scan probes to scan systems. the way to counter the cov ops ship watching an enemy system is to not discuss stuff that could leak the security if there was an eavesdropper in local. only do that in alliance channel/joint alliance player channels they have the worst combat abilities and armor made of paper. they NEED something like cloaks to avoid dying if cloaks can be detected: cov ops ships need to get combat and defensive abilities. then they'll be unbalanced with the cloak, so that goes away. then they can no longer scan systems in privacy, making the whole process of locating your enemy very hard. right now, if someone in a buzzard/helios/whatever scans to find enemies to engage, the pilot has to switch ships AFTER the fleet moves to the enemy, since the cov ops pilot has to warp to what the probes found first. THATS why they can warp cloaked, and stay cloaked, so that they can find enemy fleets and bring their fleet to them, and not die in 0.0003 seconds. ---------------------- My solution to insta overload: Linkage my sig has no reason to be edited! HA! (i ac
K Shara	Posted - 2006.03.28 09:44:00 - [20] when contraband was part of the RISK alliance and we were on the contract against PA /NBSI /FE up north I lost 3 covops ships becuase of good defensive measures as well as stupid bugs. They are not ivulnrable. try flying one sometime
Mihail d'Amour	Posted - 2006.03.28 14:52:00 - [21] Vortex - Nothing says you can't have more than one POS in a system. A long cooldown keeps people from exploiting by just having an alt macro-pulse the system all day long, it also limits the likelihood of some corp making a gate gank and pulsing the thing every time a ship flies in. The idea, in my mind, is allow a system's 'caretakers' the ability to root out spies in system, not to negate a purely defensive module completely. So I'm going for a cooldown that makes it useful as a strategic weapon for rooting out spies, but not as a tactical weapon that negates one of the few somewhat working defensive modules.
Vortex Freeman	Posted - 2006.03.29 05:00:00 - [22] Originally by: Alsthana Leameur ok.. noone seems to get covert ops.. Covert Ops. This means operations with a goal to gather information for an upcoming event (like a gank). they arent designed to fight. theyre designed to hide and spy. they CANT fight, whatsoever. their advantage is launching scan probes to scan systems. the way to counter the cov ops ship watching an enemy system is to not discuss stuff that could leak the security if there was an eavesdropper in local. only do that in alliance channel/joint alliance player channels they have the worst combat abilities and armor made of paper. they NEED something like cloaks to avoid dying if cloaks can be detected: cov ops ships need to get combat and defensive abilities. then they'll be unbalanced with the cloak, so that goes away. then they can no longer scan systems in privacy, making the whole process of locating your enemy very hard. right now, if someone in a buzzard/helios/whatever scans to find enemies to engage, the pilot has to switch ships AFTER the fleet moves to the enemy, since the cov ops pilot has to warp to what the probes found first. THATS why they can warp cloaked, and stay cloaked, so that they can find enemy fleets and bring their fleet to them, and not die in 0.0003 seconds. You have not read my posts have you? None of the ideas I posted are intended to make covops useless. --- <S> ~ Preparatus Supervivet ~
Vortex Freeman	Posted - 2006.03.29 05:01:00 - [23] Originally by: K Shara when contraband was part of the RISK alliance and we were on the contract against PA /NBSI /FE up north I lost 3 covops ships becuase of good defensive measures as well as stupid bugs. They are not ivulnrable. try flying one sometime I have covops lvl 5 thankyou. --- <S> ~ Preparatus Supervivet ~
Vortex Freeman	Posted - 2006.03.29 05:20:00 - [24] Originally by: Mihail d'Amour Vortex - Nothing says you can't have more than one POS in a system. A long cooldown keeps people from exploiting by just having an alt macro-pulse the system all day long, it also limits the likelihood of some corp making a gate gank and pulsing the thing every time a ship flies in. The idea, in my mind, is allow a system's 'caretakers' the ability to root out spies in system, not to negate a purely defensive module completely. So I'm going for a cooldown that makes it useful as a strategic weapon for rooting out spies, but not as a tactical weapon that negates one of the few somewhat working defensive modules. Yeah I see your point, while this could work well I'm looking for something more tactically useful. A POS module pulsing the system in intervals, or irregular timing, could be useful for strategically important locations but impossible to deploy on a tactical level. The first thing a covop do when jumpin into a system is to warp off and cloak. Then it's likely to return to the gate using a bookmark to check who's there. Using a pulse module with a 25% chance to uncloak a cloaked vessel at 7.5k with a falloff of 12.5k (0% chance at 20k) wouldn't threaten a covops as it jumps into a system. The uncloak range of 2k as it is now is just redicilously small. Simply what I'm suggesting here is some tool to actively hunt covops ships. There are no such tools ingame right now. It would add to the game, another area to specialize in, more blueprints, modules, skills to train and possibly specialized ship classes to use these tools. Then, as a counter to these new tools, better covops ships will be introduced. It's a natural step to take and a natural development of the game. Another area of specialization that new players could focus on and become proficient in a relatively small amount of training time. So what's so bad about that? Or are you all afraid that you might not be able to sit safely in a cloaked ship at a safe spot? If that's how you spend your time in EVE I really feel sorry for you. --- <S> ~ Preparatus Supervivet ~
Vortex Freeman	Posted - 2006.03.29 05:36:00 - [25] Edited by: Vortex Freeman on 29/03/2006 05:37:53 Originally by: Viktor Fyretracker how about you over-paranoid 0.0 space owners open the borders then, even for pure explorers who arent there for intel have to use a covert ops because you pop shuttles. whats the point of 5000 systems when people cant be free roaming explorers. Your reasoning is like saying "What's the point having all these roads when I have to pay for gas?" Our space is not yours to explore, period. --- <S> ~ Preparatus Supervivet ~
Mihail d'Amour	Posted - 2006.03.29 15:32:00 - [26] Vortex, the problem is that the module you suggest doesn't just affect cov-ops ships. Since transports are absurdly under-developed for what they do, the cloak is the only way to have a chance at getting off a gate in <.5. Once again, the cloak IS a defensive COUNTERMEASURE. It is there to provide balance. Removing its utility removes that balance. And the weapon you are suggesting will make the cloak useless for anything besides sitting cloaked at some safe spot, since you can't get within 12k without doing concentric circles for 10's of AU to find that person. In short, the only thing YOUR tool would be useful for is pirating at gates. The POS module is useful for what you claimed your issue was, namely uncloaking a cov-ops hiding somewhere in a system that you control to prevent inteligence gathering. The Cov-ops are so weak that you could run around firing off smartbombs and seriously damage or destroy one fairly easily. That's a pulse weapon that goes 7.5K from your ship. So, what you are asking for in that regard exists.
Vortex Freeman	Posted - 2006.03.30 02:38:00 - [27] In my opinion the smartbomb is not good enough. Even 7.5k radius is a very tiny sphere in a infinite universe. Finding a cloaked ship within a 15k radius is possible though unlikely. Once the ship is off the gate the probability is so low that it can be regarded as practically impossible. I don't want to give pirates better tools to gank transport ships or haulers. You could always fly with escort though, form a convoy with a escort gang. Perhaps the POS pulse-module would be the best way to go, for strategic defense. Still I think a tactically useful module, better than the smartbombs, would be very useful to have. Emphasis in this game is on teamwork. Gang up a few industrials and organize a escort because lone haulers will always be ganked there's no way around it. --- <S> ~ Preparatus Supervivet ~
Viktor Fyretracker	Posted - 2006.03.30 04:00:00 - [28] if you followed naval tradition you could have a special module that only destroyers could use(Destroyers hunted submarines, in EVE covert ops are our submarines). would also give them a use beyond being a lvl 1 mission snowplower. one thought is rather then sensor system is "Depth Charges" of some sort, another is a midslot module that fuctions like Sonar. you get a "ping" back but you dont know fully what it is but you would get a general direction of the object. maybe even allow deployable Sonar things and run a SOSA net in space you own, covert ops would have to avoid this net or they get detected, if near a POS the guns would randomly fire as the sonar wouldnt give exact locations but a general area.
James Britanicus	Posted - 2006.03.30 13:35:00 - [29] Edited by: James Britanicus on 30/03/2006 13:37:51 Edited by: James Britanicus on 30/03/2006 13:36:52 I have been operating as a cov ops pilot for about a year. In fact the was the first "ship" I ever really wanted to fly. I have enuf experience using this ship that what I am about to say is not coming out my arse as the saying goes. The advent of the freighter means the advent of the freighter escort. This equates to much less easy ganks. People have begun to use cloak as a way to circumvent piratas and now you are feeling the crunch. Cov ops are weak and punchless. I agree with the guy that said to give destroyers some sort of sounding gear but it should be time consuming and difficult to use like depth charges were. Not some "wtfpwnd4tw decloak your sorry arse" button like what you are wishing for. Have a nice day and try to keep the BS to a minimun. **************************************************************** He thinks he is Uber, if you don't believe me, just ask him :)
Macro Murderer	Posted - 2006.03.30 14:00:00 - [30] Recon frigates are not the only ships 'invincible' in this game. A good intercepter pilot can never be caught if he doesn't want to be. Just about any ship can safe spot and log off. A stealth bomber can do some serious damage, but really most covert ops ships are like wasps... they can sting, but rarely ever kill. Anything that's small and fast will be impossible to catch. You go through all this trouble to ruin the covert ops ship, and intercepters will be your next complaint. "They're too fast, they get past our ships, and they get out of bubble camps." Every ship has it's place. And besides, you always have local. You know someones in system with local. Still, I like the recommendations I've read. If there is ever going to be anything that can detect a cloaked covert op ship... perhaps probes that have to be used by someone with cloaking 5, signature analysis 5, Electronics 5, Survey 5... and maybe even some other skills related to radar and cloaking... then, ontop of that, make the skill be something like "cloaked ship detection" and it's rank has to equal or higher then the person who's cloakeds cloacking skill... and then only make it a % chance of detecting the ship... and then ontop of that, require special probes that use very valueable minerals and probably need parts from NPCs... And then with all that.. you'd probably send the probes out, and the covert ops guy will be smart enough to move. shrug There are far worse problems then covert ops ships.

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