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Priest Vallon
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Posted - 2006.03.30 13:18:00 -
[1]
why is it that the manticore is so much superior then the other bombers in this game?
why did the dev did this i mean its so unbalansed it not even funny
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Captain Merkin
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Posted - 2006.03.30 13:29:00 -
[2]
manticore in my eyes in not overpowered.
I would rather fly a hound any day to be fair even though I have a manticore tucked away as well.
2 x cruise, 2 x 150mm 2's
2 x webb
plate and 2 x damage mod
if I remember right anyhow.. much more effective against frigs than manticore and lasts that tiny bit longer..
manticore I struggle to fit in a way I am happy, 3 x launcher, dampner, sensor booster, then im pretty much out of room.. but its good for fleet ;)
Proving natural selection and Charles Darwin wrong since 1981.
The Kamikaze pilot
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Keneki
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Posted - 2006.03.30 13:29:00 -
[3]
Caldari have the best missile boats and stealth bombers are, of all things, missile boats. I'd be ****ed if they didn't have the best. Get over it and move on, they are not used to often anyways. Why dont you complain about WCS or instas or something... |
Priest Vallon
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Posted - 2006.03.30 13:33:00 -
[4]
stil a manticore wins vs any other bomber this isnt right imo
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ArchenTheGreat
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Posted - 2006.03.30 13:34:00 -
[5]
Question is: is Manticore overpowered at all? I think it is not. It has small cap so warping anywhere is a problem also using ECM. If you fit cap battery you just used one medslot. Fitting 3 launchers is painfull even with maxed skills. If you compare damage with Nemesis you will see it is very similar (Nemesis with electron blasters).
Stealth bombers are close range ships. Yes. They can't scramble from 40km and they can't kill with one volley. Well maybe poorly fit tech1 frig. But to kill those you don't need expensive tech2 ship. Bombers should approach target cloacked and attack from scrambling range. Preferably 2km or less.
Only Manticore advantage is slightly bigger alpha strike. But you can't count 3 launchers because other bombers can fit BCU. If you try this on Manticore you will have VERY gimped setup.
So Manticore is not superior. It is different.
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Priest Vallon
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Posted - 2006.03.30 13:36:00 -
[6]
then why is the manticore so expensive? i mean if it isnt the best 1 like you al claim
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Ante
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Posted - 2006.03.30 13:37:00 -
[7]
 Originally by: Priest Vallon
stil a manticore wins vs any other bomber this isnt right imo
But it doesn't win vs any other bomber.
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DigitalCommunist
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Posted - 2006.03.30 13:38:00 -
[8]
The Manticore is overpowered for the same people who think the Gallente carrier is overpowered. Despite having such a statistical advantage it still comes down to whether or not you know how to use the damn ships.
Purchasing Complex Fullerene Shards, contact me ingame.
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James Saumerez
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Posted - 2006.03.30 13:44:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Priest Vallon
stil a manticore wins vs any other bomber this isnt right imo
Why isn't it "right"?
So the manticore is the best in bomber v bomber encounters(according to you). Perhaps the other bombers shine in some other area. Is the purpose of stealth bombers to kill other stealth bombers?
Game balance does not mean that every single bomber is going to be exactly as good as every other bomber in every single situation.
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Max Teranous
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Posted - 2006.03.30 13:46:00 -
[10]
I agree with DC. Many people can't get past the 3 to 2 launchers of the bombers. They are the same people who haven't tried actually fitting one or flying one!
I have killed a Manticore in a tech 1/named fitted Rifter. Even more than most ships I think how you fly cloaked type ships is the most important thing, not how many launchers they have.
Max 
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Asnar
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Posted - 2006.03.30 13:46:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Priest Vallon
then why is the manticore so expensive? i mean if it isnt the best 1 like you al claim
Cause only caldari ship pilots have high missile skills making the caldari bomber the natural choice for them???
 And how exactly do you adapt to potentially getting killed by everybody you kill? -Nero Scuro
If I miss you, it will be because my tracking is a little off. - Grey Area |
Testy Mctest
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Posted - 2006.03.30 13:54:00 -
[12]
It's not superior. It's different.
1) To fit 3 launchers you need to use a slot on something to give you more grid (MAPC usually) and you struggle to fit much else on your setup at all.
2) The Manticore moves extremely slow and turns extremely slowly, making it vulnerable to getting caught by camps or warp-ins when not cloaked. Also, it takes longer to get into position.
3) The Manticore's capacitor capacity is ridiculously low, meaning in many long warps (particularly 0.0 where warps tend to be larger) it slows the group down.
Conversely, the Hound is the fastest and most agile bomber, and doesn't suffer from the cap issues since it can afford to fit a cap battery. The Hound is a better bomber for general use than the rest, Manticore included; the Manticore is better for simple shoot-and-hope tactics, which tbh, are reserved for people with little knowledge of how to use a bomber.
Testy's Eve Blog!
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Theron Gyrow
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Posted - 2006.03.30 15:27:00 -
[13]
What Testy said. However, Nemesis is clearly the worst bomber and could do with a grid boost and some slimming... Plus it should gain a low slot and lose a mid.
(Sorry for the hijack, but I just don't get the Nemesis...  )
--
Gradient's forum |
HippoKing
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Posted - 2006.03.30 15:34:00 -
[14]
uh... but the purifier is better 
sigs of the 23/24/25 hijack just as well -eris
yarrrr, i shall retake my sig -HippoKing
Not a chance, our 1337 sig haXx0r sk1llz are too powerful! - Wrangler
Ho-Ho-Hooooooo, Merry Saturday!11 - Immy
Yo ho ho and a bottle of BReeEEEEeee.... - Jacques ARRRRRRchambault
Stop spamming with "QFT" >:|. - Teblin
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Nyphur
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Posted - 2006.03.30 15:35:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Nyphur on 30/03/2006 15:35:24
Originally by: Priest Vallon
stil a manticore wins vs any other bomber this isnt right imo
Ships are not designed to fight their counterparts 1v1. This is an MMO.
Eve-Tanking.com - For the ultimate tanking spreadsheet and resources. |
Testy Mctest
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Posted - 2006.03.30 15:44:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Theron Gyrow
What Testy said. However, Nemesis is clearly the worst bomber and could do with a grid boost and some slimming... Plus it should gain a low slot and lose a mid.
(Sorry for the hijack, but I just don't get the Nemesis... )
Yeh....at least the Purifier can fit a plate :P
Testy's Eve Blog!
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Malken
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Posted - 2006.03.30 15:46:00 -
[17]
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
...it still comes down to whether or not you know how to use the damn ships.
yep so utterly true!
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Harlequinn
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Posted - 2006.03.30 17:45:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Harlequinn on 30/03/2006 17:45:48
Originally by: Testy Mctest
It's not superior. It's different.
1) To fit 3 launchers you need to use a slot on something to give you more grid (MAPC usually) and you struggle to fit much else on your setup at all.
2) The Manticore moves extremely slow and turns extremely slowly, making it vulnerable to getting caught by camps or warp-ins when not cloaked. Also, it takes longer to get into position.
3) The Manticore's capacitor capacity is ridiculously low, meaning in many long warps (particularly 0.0 where warps tend to be larger) it slows the group down.
In practicality these are true for most manticore pilots, but there are exceptions.
#1 is not entirely true for pilots with maxed skills. Mounting the three launchers usually makes the difference between using a BCU on a manticore or not, even a pilot with max skills can't mount 3 T2 launchers, a BCU, and still have much diversity when it comes to mid-slots. The other bombers have very little trouble mounting a BCU and this starts to level out the damage some. It is possible with max skills to fit 3 T2 launchers and decent mid-slots without having to resort to a MAPC or CPU.
#2 is very true but the effects of this limitation can be reduced by the skill and experience of the pilot. Because of the manticore's slow agility it should always come out of cloak already aligned for warp. This way the pilot can leave in a hurry if need be. If the manticore gets targeted and has yet to align then the chances are very good that the manticore will be killed before it can turn to warp.
I've got my manticore doing over 500m/s cloaked with two nanofibers in the lows so it's not exactly slow with normal ammo, unfortunatley I'm usually using precision cruise so it's more like 250 m/s. When manuvering for position I try to load normal ammo, but being unable to relaod while cloked, this can be very problematic.
#3 is the hardest of the manticore's limitations to overcome. It means that the manticore is better at the other bombers when it comes to camping, but falls way behind when it comes to roaming fleets. In order to get a manti to effectivley roam requires mounting a small cap battery II, and that means the setup will need to have a MAPC. This effectively limits a manti's setup quite a bit just to keep the fleet from having to slow down and wait for it. The other bombers do not have this problem.
The other unmentioned weaknesses of the manticore are that it is both slower to lock and easier to be locked than the other bombers. The sig radius is bigger than the others, but by only a small amount. The scan res has a much more significant drop on the manticore. While these differences may not seem all that great to the average bomber pilot, a bomber needs to be able to lock quickly from cloak to maintain surprise and be able to dissappear before it's targeted in order to survive. The manticore is the worst of the bombers when it comes to these very important qualities.
Mainly the strength of the manticore comes from it's alpha strike. It can do the single volley damage better than any of the other bombers. Do not confuse this with DPS, I'm pretty sure that other bombers can beat the DPS of the manticore when they are up close and using thier guns and a BCU to enhance thier missiles.
The manticore seems superior to the other bombers because usually the burst damage is best for how bombers fight. From long range a manticore can potentially do 1500 or more points of damage all at once. This will often get the manticore pilot the killmail, or just kill T1 frigates in a single volley.
The manticore is the most specialzed bomber for dealing damage from range but the least flexible of the bombers for general use. This makes the manticore the least survivable of the bombers IMO. Most players think the manticore is the bomber for the least skilled pilots, but I believe the opposite. The other bombers are more forgiving, the manticore needs high skills and experience to be used well.
--Victory needs no explanation, defeat allows none.-- |
Shaemell Buttleson
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Posted - 2006.03.30 18:31:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Priest Vallon
then why is the manticore so expensive? i mean if it isnt the best 1 like you al claim
Basicly because people like you insist they are the best thus putting up the prices! 
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Grimpak
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Posted - 2006.03.30 19:08:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Shaemell Buttleson
Originally by: Priest Vallon
then why is the manticore so expensive? i mean if it isnt the best 1 like you al claim
Basicly because people like you insist they are the best thus putting up the prices!
indeed. please preach to the 7 winds how the manticore is uber and let the hounds get cheaper and cheaper
me and many other will apreciate such thing
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Originally by: Abdalion
Shoot him ingame if you don't like this person. If you do like him, go mine veldspar with him.
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Malka Badi'a
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Posted - 2006.03.30 19:13:00 -
[21]
Quote:
Game balance does not mean that every single bomber is going to be exactly as good as every other bomber in every single situation.
QFT. Learn to fly the ship, not just it's modules.
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Barak Torginn
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Posted - 2006.03.30 19:18:00 -
[22]
To the OP, read Harlequinn's post and then close the thread. Nothing else needs to be said on this topic.
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Jin Masaru
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Posted - 2006.03.30 19:23:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Priest Vallon
why is it that the manticore is so much superior then the other bombers in this game?
why did the dev did this i mean its so unbalansed it not even funny
Have you even flown a manticore? I have a hard time thinking its greatly unbalanced in any way. Saying it is is almost like saying that the dominix is unbalanced because it has a larger drone bay than other battleships. Different ships and different races shine in different ways. If they didn't, wouldn't everything just be plain and boring?
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Malthros Zenobia
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Posted - 2006.03.31 00:02:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Priest Vallon
stil a manticore wins vs any other bomber this isnt right imo
The Domi beats out any out drone-using ship* in a drone-fight. That clearly isn't right.
*before anyone says moros, stfu. It's a bug that the Gallente dread doesn't suck against any non-capital ships...
Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu
I'm probably one of the biggest Bush fanboys in Eve...
This is like, Darth Vader, can't-reach-climax-without-killing-a-puppy evil.
RAWR!11 Sig Hijack!11 - Imaran |
Octavio Santillian
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Posted - 2006.03.31 00:02:00 -
[25]
Though IĈm not arguing the Manticor is the best bomber; in the hands of a skilled missile pilot it is, however, a great bomber with some significant role related advantages. IMO a stealth bomber is all about surprise alpha strike, and the Manticor does do this better than any other SB. By itself, that might not make much difference, but get three or four of these babies together, and you are talking about a big kick in the pants from out of nowhere.
1) As has been mentioned, a pilot with good fitting skills can fit this ship out very well (I know two Caldari pilots who have very nice setups). Now I know not all pilots have great fitting skills, but a stealth bomber is not a noob kind of ship. By they time a normal combat pilot (i.e. not one who set out to specialize in covert ops right away) is flying a stealth bomber, he or she should already have top notch fitting skills. Good fitting skills are required to fly any ship to its potential, and though some ships are more forgiving, a ship is really measured by its top end capabilities (take the Tempest for example).
2) The Hound has the worst base cap at 200; that doesnĈt make it a bad ship by any means, but people are talking as if the Manticor has some out-of-whack low cap.
3) A pilot with top notch missile skills can do a tremendous amount of alpha damage with this ship at various ranges. Using Fury missiles you can do a shload of damage very fast (especially against frigates by using a slightly delayed, staggered launch of EM, Kinetic/Thermal, Explosive). As mentioned above, as you multiply that by two or three or four ships in a pack, that extra cruise missile per ship starts to make itself felt.
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Liet Traep
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Posted - 2006.03.31 01:33:00 -
[26]
The manticore is slow, has cap problems, is a ***** to fit and has another problem most people forget about. It's mass. I tried using it in gangs and gave up on it as I was constantly getting behind. Purifier can fit 2 BCU's, flies faster and has better power grid. I really like that little ship.
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4 LOM
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Posted - 2006.03.31 05:32:00 -
[27]
Edited by: 4 LOM on 31/03/2006 05:32:54
Originally by: Ante
Originally by: Priest Vallon
stil a manticore wins vs any other bomber this isnt right imo
But it doesn't win vs any other bomber.
i know i one vollyed a Nemesis in my manticore, so i would say it does.
i was 80km roughly away from him was in a fleet situation dont even know if he knew i shot at him. anyawys he was at full health then dead and i got a kill mail (no one else on it). I do however run precision cruise missiles on my manticore, cruise missile with explosion radius of a rocket FTW.
However i can see alot of situations where having 2x launchers and 2x guns would be really nice. lets say my 3x cruise did not kill the person in one shot. i think i would rather have shot 2x cruise and had 2 guns to finish him off with. instead of waiting for my second volly to go with my 3 launchers
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