Other players shouldn't get to passively accumulate income through my hard work.

Then, don't let them have it. Such Simple.

So, go build your own poco. Then you can collect this "free" isk you speak of.

If you encounters difficulties then maybe its not so free to obtain/upkeep these.

They are too expensive and there are no free planets in high-sec. If I could guarantee a free planet, okay, maybe, but there aren't any. The older corps already have a complete monopoly over this aspect of the game. The tax needs to be lowered substantially.

Other players shouldn't get to passively accumulate income through my hard work. That's unfair and ridiculous. Anything above 1% tax rate is ridiculous. Quite frankly customs offices should be removed from player control entirely. Let the NPC factions control them.

I disagree. And I've just used as many facts and solid numbers as you did.
Just a sidenote - 'unfair' has rarely to do anything with game design/balance.

Other players shouldn't get to passively accumulate income through my hard work. That's unfair and ridiculous. Anything above 1% tax rate is ridiculous. Quite frankly customs offices should be removed from player control entirely. Let the NPC factions control them.

You're joking, right? Fairness has everything to do with balance and design.

Jeez, just do it in Low Sec.

What I meant is that fairness is a subjective term(and on a smaller scale) , while game balance approaches the situation from all directions.
An example would be that it's unfair that frigates have lower dps than battleships, but it's balanced because they are cheaper, faster, ect.

Taxes balance out relative safeness of highsec.

Other players shouldn't get to passively accumulate income through my hard work. That's unfair and ridiculous. Anything above 1% tax rate is ridiculous. Quite frankly customs offices should be removed from player control entirely. Let the NPC factions control them.

Other players shouldn't get to passively accumulate income through my hard work. That's unfair and ridiculous. Anything above 1% tax rate is ridiculous. Quite frankly customs offices should be removed from player control entirely. Let the NPC factions control them.

Well said, but I disagree. It would be perfectly logical to say that it is fair, rather than unfair, that frigates have lower DPS than battleships because they are cheaper and faster. In other words, it is fair because those few opposing attributes balance them, their strengths and weaknesses offset each other in practice. But it would be unfair if for example the frigate had such low dps that is made their cheapness and speed irrelevant while the battleship remained useful; that is if the scale was tipped slight in favor of the battleship.

So in respect to the PI, fairness would mean that the pros and cons of buying and owning a POCO and the costs associated with PI offset each other perfectly, that is balanced each other out. But they don't in reality because the tax rate is above and beyond a reasonable percentage compared to the ultimate practical sale price of the PI commodity. There are other ethical issues involved too however: One is for example that the current POCO system gives older players and large corps an extremely unfair advantage over noobs since only experienced players and corps can afford them in the first place, while the noob is forced into servile industry.

Also the safeness argument isn't really fair either. PI isn't so lucrative in the first place to warrant the dangers of low-sec and most likely guaranteed death.

It was intended as a mechanism to foster pewpew in hi-sec, and to push players out to other areas for PI. Don't think the first one worked out quite as well as they hoped. The second, might work out a bit better. And if not, then the price of PI materials will rise and then it could be worthwhile to pay "outrageous" POCO taxes.

Other players shouldn't get to passively accumulate income through my hard work.

The great thing about pros and cons is that if you decide the cons aren't worth the pros, you are fully capable of electing to NOT do whatever it was that you were considering doing.

If your analysis says you shouldn't do PI where there are high taxes, then you should celebrate your right to not do PI. Congratulations.

1.) PI in nullsec and lowsec can be very lucrative. I generally make 1.5-2m per day per planet, using a very hands off approach (restart extractor once a day, pickup once every two weeks).

Other players shouldn't get to passively accumulate income through my hard work. That's unfair and ridiculous. Anything above 1% tax rate is ridiculous. Quite frankly customs offices should be removed from player control entirely. Let the NPC factions control them.

Again, just do it in Low Sec. I use 30 planets and not one is over 2%.

DST's with Cloak/MWD Trick or Blockade Runners with Covops work. Your choice. 30 planets and 5 toons for well over 3 years doing this and only one measly Bustard loss, and I know exactly how that happened.

I have no clue why people are so mortally terrified of Low Sec.

They are too expensive and there are no free planets in high-sec. If I could guarantee a free planet, okay, maybe, but there aren't any. The older corps already have a complete monopoly over this aspect of the game. The tax needs to be lowered substantially.

it is unfair i am unable to literally yoke you to my spaceship and whip you to make it move faster but such is life

The issue I see with POCOs is that they require no financial upkeep or time to maintain. If a corp sets a POCO on a planet with a tax rate that is too high to generate customers, they should be losing money daily maintaining it. Right now POCO's are a 'set it and forget it' type of structure. If you mismanage your tax rates you aren't penalized for anything beyond the initial investment .

I also feel that once POCOs go without maintenance or upkeep for a certain period of time they should become abandoned so that a more active corp can take them over and manage them correctly. That would give smaller corps a shot at entering the POCO market when larger corps over extend their ability to maintain their POCO investments.

The issue I see with POCOs is that they require no financial upkeep or time to maintain. If a corp sets a POCO on a planet with a tax rate that is too high to generate customers, they should be losing money daily maintaining it. Right now POCO's are a 'set it and forget it' type of structure. If you mismanage your tax rates you aren't penalized for anything beyond the initial investment .

I also feel that once POCOs go without maintenance or upkeep for a certain period of time they should become abandoned so that a more active corp can take them over and manage them correctly. That would give smaller corps a shot at entering the POCO market when larger corps over extend their ability to maintain their POCO investments.

The issue I see with POCOs is that they require no financial upkeep or time to maintain. If a corp sets a POCO on a planet with a tax rate that is too high to generate customers, they should be losing money daily maintaining it. Right now POCO's are a 'set it and forget it' type of structure. If you mismanage your tax rates you aren't penalized for anything beyond the initial investment .

I also feel that once POCOs go without maintenance or upkeep for a certain period of time they should become abandoned so that a more active corp can take them over and manage them correctly. That would give smaller corps a shot at entering the POCO market when larger corps over extend their ability to maintain their POCO investments.

it is unfair i am unable to literally yoke you to my spaceship and whip you to make it move faster but such is life

Or if a large group of pilots feel the tax is too high they could just get together and destroy it. Then put their own POCO with a more reasonable tax rate.

I think there is a lot more opportunity to develop something interesting with POCO mechanics than the 'blow it up if you don't like it' philosophy. Its a great starting place for getting POCOS established, but I think that is a pretty boring place to leave it at.

Altering POCOS to require upkeep or fuel would actually increase conflict over planetary resources as smaller corps would be able to exploit the weaknesses of a larger corps logistics. Its the same kind of philosophy that is behind the siphoning units. There should always be some type of drawback to 'afk' income like POCO's.

Maybe we need a POCO siphoning or hacking deployable.

Was PI so much fun and profitable, that too many players were doing it, such that something needed to be done to discourage it?

Has it worked?

This comment is based on the entirely wrong premise that this change has discouraged highsec PI, on the contrary, player ownership of highsec POCOs has dropped the tax rate across the board from the Interbus NPC default of 17% to an average of 10% or 11% depending on if you have the new skill trained to 4 or 5. Don't let one crybaby who would rather pay more taxes to NPCs than less taxes to other players distort the issue. This change has made highsec PI more profitable (although of lowsec, nullsec, and WH PI are all still better).

I think I get it. Perhaps sounding dumb but for confirmation,

The change added another tax, while keeping the old tax.
But, if you train the skill, that reduces the old tax, and overall, you end up with more profit if you are doing PI.

Correct?

When NPC Interbus owned all the POCOs in highsec, every single one had a tax rate of 17%.

People might Shoot them!

Anyway, Even in Highsec, you've got large groups running POCO, at a rate lower than NPC. It's to entice people in. PI investment tends to be so low that you don't want to risk driving people away. Because they will just leave your planet.

They are too expensive and there are no free planets in high-sec. If I could guarantee a free planet, okay, maybe, but there aren't any. The older corps already have a complete monopoly over this aspect of the game. The tax needs to be lowered substantially.

When NPC Interbus owned all the POCOs in highsec, every single one had a tax rate of 17%.

Rubicon changed that. A player owned highsec POCO now has the tax rate of: X + (10 - Y) = Tax %. Where X is the tax rate the player corporation who owns the POCO sets and receives which is added to a flat 10% NPC tax and this NPC tax can be reduced by 1% for each level of the customs code skill you train up to a maximum of 5. Most corporations, including mine, have set their tax rates at 5%, and this is added to the flat 10% NPC tax makes it a total of 15% with no skills. However most people doing PI in highsec have that skill trained at least to 4, so we subtract that from the 15% leaving an average tax rate of 11%. This is an average drop of 6% in highsec PI tax rates in the aftermath of Rubicon.

Well now I understand much better the basis for what I was told.

Unfortunately, the end result is that for most, PI seems to be both riskier and less profitable than before, and just does not seem to be worth the trouble. I could be wrong, but I am just going to write PI off as something to have anything to do with in this game unless and until it is substantially improved to make it worth it to the average player.

True, but Interbus only owned highsec customs offices between the deployement of Rubicon and someone destroying the customs office.

Prior to Rubicon Concord owned highsec customs offices with a flat tax rate of 10%

I'm sorry, but most corporation have not set their POCO tax rates to 5%. The average I'm seeing is at 15%.

That is exactly correct. It's not worth it in it's current state unless you can afford a POCO in the first place. So for newbs, PI is a joke.

I'm sorry, but most corporation have not set their POCO tax rates to 5%. The average I'm seeing is at 15%.

the RvBee Customs Authority has instituted a 5% rate. this is why you only use genuine RvBee POCOs and not our competitors'

Its too bad there isn't an easy way to find POCO's by tax rate or by Alliance/Corp. If I knew you had a bunch of 5% POCOs near my area I would definitely become a customer.

5% + npc tax. So a minimum of 10%. (Just in case that wasn't clear. I do the same on my POCO. I suspect they make more, I've yet to recoup my investment)

I don't have the capability to pop POCOS. Newbs or newb corps are completely unable to engage in PI do to this. An entire aspect of the game completely pointless.

Join a group that can then.

That's is the issue. Eve isn't just a multiplayer game. It's also a solo game as well. PI should be open to everyone just like mining is.

That's is the issue. Eve isn't just a multiplayer game. It's also a solo game as well. PI should be open to everyone just like mining is.

That's is the issue. Eve isn't just a multiplayer game. It's also a solo game as well. PI should be open to everyone just like mining is.

Just look what Blizzard has done to WoW when they removed team play from basically everywhere but raids. It has become a hideous game.

I remember when I first played you had to like, coordinate with your party for 5-man dungeons. In my subsequent visits to the game, I found elite quest mobs, and elite mobs in general were basically removed from open world pve, and any dungeon group you join has 0 communication and is just chain pulling the whole thing.

That's is the issue. Eve isn't just a multiplayer game. It's also a solo game as well. PI should be open to everyone just like mining is.

I do PI in high sec.

Leave the vicinity of the large trade hubs and you will be able to find nice, quiet regions with very reasonable prices.

:snip:

Inform yourself, fly around and leave your comfort zone.

I don't have the capability to pop POCOS. Newbs or newb corps are completely unable to engage in PI do to this. An entire aspect of the game completely pointless.

That's is the issue. Eve isn't just a multiplayer game. It's also a solo game as well. PI should be open to everyone just like mining is.

After the change, I ragequit all my highsec PI setups. Just skilled into a Prowler, lowsec here I come!

I have a sneaking suspicion that this is exactly what CCP wants me to do.... I feel so used!

Honestly PI in LS isn't that hard, and kind of fun. I've yet to lose a ship at it. You put a cloak, afterburn, and some stabs on a cheap indy do quick transfers at the POCO, and you are very hard to kill. Even if someone blows up your indy it's a couple million to replace. I'd use a T2 hauler, but their cost vs their marginal survivablity doesn't add up.

Bull hockey !

The Covops Blockade Runners are almost impossible to catch. The Deep Space Transports are almost uncatchable with 3 additional Warp Stabs hanging off them.

Almost 4 years, 5 toons and 30 planets, all in Low, I've only lost one Bustard the entire time. And I know exactly how it happened.

To give your advice above, you must have been doing something wrong.

That's is the issue. Eve isn't just a multiplayer game. It's also a solo game as well. PI should be open to everyone just like mining is.

He doesn't seem to be doing anything wrong. As he says, he's yet to lose a ship at it. That's doing it right. And cheaply too.

Bull hockey !

The Covops Blockade Runners are almost impossible to catch. The Deep Space Transports are almost uncatchable with 3 additional Warp Stabs hanging off them.

Almost 4 years, 5 toons and 30 planets, all in Low, I've only lost one Bustard the entire time. And I know exactly how it happened.

To give your advice above, you must have been doing something wrong.

Excuse me, but the point of his quote (had you read it) is:

"I'd use a T2 hauler, but their cost vs their marginal survivablity doesn't add up."

It's a broad declaration about something that he has obviously not even tried and knows absolutely nothing about. Just a "fluff of a thought tossed off out into the Web"......and nothing more or better.

T1 haulers cost under 5 mil normally, T2 over 100 mil. What he means by marginal additional survivability is that their additional survivability is far less than their additional cost. Its a personal assessment and should be understood as such, rather than trying to pretend to intellectual sophistication talking about fluffs of thought when he pretty clearly knows exactly what hes talking about.