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Joerd Toastius
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Posted - 2006.04.07 00:08:00 -
[31]
Oh, stacks. I was working on the assumption that both modules were operating on a single stack, hence "Stack-based". Objection retracted.
That said, you still get the pre-stabilising problem unless you can limit WCS to only be activateable once someone starts scrambling you. Otherwise you can just build up your core strength stack as soon as you drop out of warp, which gives NPCers a get-out-of-jail-free card.
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.04.07 00:12:00 -
[32]
No, read it again.
You can't build anything when the stack is zero height (no scramble on you), and you can't built it beyond the number of scramblers on you either. There would need to be a some sort of maximum decay rate to prevent handoffs between scramblers to hold you in place, but pre-stablising isn't an option.
"The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer |
Joerd Toastius
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Posted - 2006.04.07 00:22:00 -
[33]
I understand that that's what's intended, I just don't see that it's easily implementable. As I said, unless you can make stabs only work, or only have an effect, when you're already beings scrambled, you're open to pre-stabilisation, and again I suspect that's a fairly significant rewrite of the module code. I'm not saying it's not possible, or even that it rules this out as a solution, I'm just listing it as a negative.
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.04.07 00:36:00 -
[34]
????
I've made it perfectly PLAIN how it would work. You seem to be saying bluntly that it's impossible, which is utter rot.
And again, how does this change module code in ANY way? The game allready tracks when scramblers and what value they are on a ship.
"The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer |
Joerd Toastius
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Posted - 2006.04.07 01:00:00 -
[35]
You've explained the desired mechanics very accurately. I'm just suggesting that they may have implementational hurdles based on observations of the way the game currently works and some informed guesswork. If I'd wanted to say that it was impossible I wouldn't have said "I'm not saying it's not possible".
Yes, the game tracks scramblers, points on ship etc. What I'm not aware of is any current module which only works* when another ship activates a module on the host ship, in the way that this system seems to require WCS to only work when scramblers are activated on the ship to prevent pre-stabilising. It's generally - generally - the case that where functionality does not already exist it is not allowed for in the current code (often for good reason). The question is how fundamental a change is required for that functionality to be implemented, I'd estimate "fairly" as being ball-park. If there's no alternative better system and "fairly" is achievable then fine, this is the best solution - but when your solution has negatives it's always sensible to bear this in mind and check there isn't a better one available.
* There are I'm sure modules which have no effect when there's not something else being done, but that doesn't mean they're not working, it just means that the work they're doing isn't relevant to anything.
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.04.07 02:00:00 -
[36]
That ain't the hard bit.
The hard bit would be tracking scramblers and we can allready DO that. No, I'm not a coder, but I do understand the challenges involved.
Implimenting % based scramblers has worse challenges...it ALSO needs a stack, you realise, but is far less transparent in operation. (Dealing with scrambles ending under that would be...messy).
"The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer |
Joerd Toastius
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Posted - 2006.04.07 09:26:00 -
[37]
Yes, the stacking functionality exists. That doesn't mean that module activation dependencies suddenly becomes easy to code?
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.04.07 12:48:00 -
[38]
What dependencies?
The code hooks are there. CCP indicated that the warp capacitor idea was potentially viable (although it turned out to be fatally flawed), so adding another variable can't be too difficult. Etc.
"The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer |
Joerd Toastius
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Posted - 2006.04.07 13:02:00 -
[39]
Preventing pre-stabilising requires WCS to only add to their stack when you're being scrambled, right? And this requires code which allows the stabs to check the status of the ship to see if there are scramblers activated on it? In other words, rather than being a simple application of an effect, the module has to have a conditional statement in its effects - "If scrambler stack > 0, then add one point to core stability stack". I'm not aware of this functionality existing currently, and on the assumption that there's a unified module activation subroutine type thing, implementing it will require either a "special case" exception for stabs (messy and undesirable) or a rewrite of the module activation subroutine to allow conditionals. At least, that's my understanding.
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Mihail d'Amour
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Posted - 2006.04.07 16:20:00 -
[40]
 Originally by: Joerd Toastius
Preventing pre-stabilising requires WCS to only add to their stack when you're being scrambled, right? And this requires code which allows the stabs to check the status of the ship to see if there are scramblers activated on it? In other words, rather than being a simple application of an effect, the module has to have a conditional statement in its effects - "If scrambler stack > 0, then add one point to core stability stack". I'm not aware of this functionality existing currently, and on the assumption that there's a unified module activation subroutine type thing, implementing it will require either a "special case" exception for stabs (messy and undesirable) or a rewrite of the module activation subroutine to allow conditionals. At least, that's my understanding.
Here's a question, why is pre-stabilising a problem? A ship preparing for a warp-out ahead of time isn't a bad strategy, especially for a ship that isn't there to fight anyways.
In nomine Domine, quod erat malum |
Joerd Toastius
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Posted - 2006.04.07 16:52:00 -
[41]
It's not a problem by default, but I'm not sure it's desirable, and Maya I think agrees on that point.
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.04.07 18:39:00 -
[42]
I'd not be against an industrial-only, lowslot pre-stabiliser. Yes, that'd mean that T2 industrials were VERY hard to hold down. Why is that a problem again?
Anyway...
Joerd Toastius, the stack would be a variable like capacitor. There's no need for the modules to check anything. Scramblers raise the maximum possible size of the variable. WCS raise the actual value of the variable. Warping is only possible when the variable is at its maximum.
This is not the issue you're talking about at all. The entire thing is handed off to a second variable handler...which is perfectly possible according to CCP (in j0's WCS stability thread).
"The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer |
Joerd Toastius
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Posted - 2006.04.07 19:23:00 -
[43]
So we're back to a single-stack system now? Seems every time I post I'm dealing with a new system :P
Ok, so we've basically just got a situation analagous to the cap where scrams are cap batteries, stabs are cap boosters which inject at the end of the cycle and you warp when it's full? Ok, I can see that being fairly straightforward to implement, fair enough.
Not sure how a pre-stab as such would work in this kind of scenario, but you could certainly make the case for combat stabs which boost at the end of the cycle and carebear stabs which **** up your combat abilities royally but boost at the beginning of the cycle (or shorter cycle times or whatever).
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.04.07 20:35:00 -
[44]
I am describing ONE stack-based system. I have never described anything else.
And yea, that's one way of describing it. And there are added complexities such as a maximum decay rate and the ability for industrials to create a negative rating...but it'd be fairly easy afaik if CCP commited to it.
"The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer |
Joerd Toastius
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Posted - 2006.04.07 23:18:00 -
[45]
Decay rate?
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.04.08 00:05:00 -
[46]
Explained above, but basically there would be a maximum decay rate on the stablisation to prevent a ship from simply cycling its scramblers to allways keep you in place. Say 1/30 per second. Warping resets you to 0.
"The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer |
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