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Brent Newton
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2011.11.09 17:56:00 -
[1] - Quote
I have always thought that one of the most drawing features of Eve has always been its "free" economy. I would very much like to know what the economics adviser to ccp thinks of the current world (Earth) economic situation. We battle all the same issues in Eve as far as I know, albeit on a smaller scale, and have managed to keep prices fairly stable. Anyway, I'd like to hear what ppl think about this. People in my corp are blocking me left and right for bringing this topic up, so I thought I may get a friendlier response here. |
Tasko Pal
Spallated Garniferous Schist
14
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Posted - 2011.11.09 18:10:00 -
[2] - Quote
Well what part of the current world economic situation do you want to talk about? There's a lot there.
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Tidurious
The Dirty Rejects
Scelus Sceleris.
10
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Posted - 2011.11.09 18:23:00 -
[3] - Quote
I do not believe that we face the same issues in EVE as we do on earth. On earth, I cannot simply walk to the nearest agent and request a job that will pay very well, again and again and again. I cannot suddenly, for very little cost in some other currency, produce 3-4 hundred million out of nowhere essentially (buy PLEX). I can't go ratting on Earth and make some money easily and quickly. On Earth, I could not decide to study for a month and then assemble a huge factory and begin producing vehicles or trucks.
The problem with comparing the two is that in EVE, it is very easy to make ISK quickly, and therefore it is hard for anything to be in demand. When there is a supply deficiency, someone will quickly fill it because it is easy to set up a new operation and begin working, with little training. For 10 hours/month I could fuel a large POS with several labs, manufacturing plants, etc. That is not feasible on Earth in any way, shape, or form.
When was the last time you saw someone complaining of unemployment in EVE?
I'm sorry, it's an interesting theory, but you cannot compare EVE markets to Earth - we are NOT facing the same issues at all. |
Cyniac
Twilight Star Rangers
Black Thorne Alliance
46
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Posted - 2011.11.09 18:30:00 -
[4] - Quote
You forgot to mention the banks... when was the last time you saw anything even vaguely resembling a bank in EVE? |
Maia Demoncast
The Tuskers
0
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Posted - 2011.11.09 18:39:00 -
[5] - Quote
Cyniac wrote:You forgot to mention the banks... when was the last time you saw anything even vaguely resembling a bank in EVE?
Well given what the banks on Earth are doing, Eve banks are pretty much the same thing :P |
Cyniac
Twilight Star Rangers
Black Thorne Alliance
46
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Posted - 2011.11.09 18:42:00 -
[6] - Quote
Maia Demoncast wrote:Cyniac wrote:You forgot to mention the banks... when was the last time you saw anything even vaguely resembling a bank in EVE? Well given what the banks on Earth are doing, Eve banks are pretty much the same thing :P
I've yet to see an EVE bank pull a big bailout after they failscam massively... maybe something to try out? You know scam, claim it was due to a failinvestment but request massive bailout and get twice the ISK for the same effort!
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Tekota
The Freighter Factory
36
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Posted - 2011.11.09 19:02:00 -
[7] - Quote
To be brutally honest, there are precious few actual similarities between "real" economies & markets and their Eve counterparts.
The current real economic climate is largely defined by the 2008 realisation that banks had made overly optimistic lending decisions. Governments around the world attempted to solve this crisis by giving money to the banks, leaving said governments in debt - to.... well other banks, both state and private (and much of this money was not real money but guarantees). The banks then used significant portions of this capital injection to lend to... governments, particularly the already debt laden governments like Italy, Greece etc. Now it looks like there exists a possibility those governments can't pay back their debts to banks (debts in part caused by.... giving to banks) the banks are looking like they might need rescuing (again) having (again) made bad lending decisions. None of this could really happen within Eve.
I'm running the risk of sounding like some liberal pinko commie here, but lets just say that a (real word) economy based upon an arbitrary, abstracted system of wealth and ownership which results in humanityGÇÖs hardest workers being the least rewarded, and whereby society itself teeters precariously upon a laughably fragile construct built around only theoretical money that means fat, cruel dickheads with access to the most important spreadsheets can destabilise billions of peopleGÇÖs standard of living as a result of recklessness and greed* - has little in common with Eve's.
* many props to the linguistic talents of Alec Meer over at RPS |
Maia Demoncast
The Tuskers
0
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Posted - 2011.11.09 19:09:00 -
[8] - Quote
Cyniac wrote:Maia Demoncast wrote:Cyniac wrote:You forgot to mention the banks... when was the last time you saw anything even vaguely resembling a bank in EVE? Well given what the banks on Earth are doing, Eve banks are pretty much the same thing :P I've yet to see an EVE bank pull a big bailout after they failscam massively... maybe something to try out? You know scam, claim it was due to a failinvestment but request massive bailout and get twice the ISK for the same effort!
I think this is something definitely worth trying. I'll preemptively start a fund to have the isk on hand so we can start bailing out failed investors right away. |
Esan Vartesa
Samarkand Financial
39
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Posted - 2011.11.09 20:01:00 -
[9] - Quote
Cyniac wrote:Maia Demoncast wrote:Cyniac wrote:You forgot to mention the banks... when was the last time you saw anything even vaguely resembling a bank in EVE? Well given what the banks on Earth are doing, Eve banks are pretty much the same thing :P I've yet to see an EVE bank pull a big bailout after they failscam massively... maybe something to try out? You know scam, claim it was due to a failinvestment but request massive bailout and get twice the ISK for the same effort!
I think you just successfully explained why the whole bailout fiasco was the biggest scam ever perpetrated on the human race. |
Shar Tegral
11
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Posted - 2011.11.09 20:06:00 -
[10] - Quote
Brent Newton wrote:I have always thought that one of the most drawing features of Eve has always been its "free" economy. To add to the ongoing conversation: I disagree that Eve has a "free" economy as well. It is open, yes, but it is still fairly regulated via means obvious and not so obvious. Additionally, the economy is not customer friendly given various mechanics built into the system. But I digress into ancient debates and gripes.
Perhaps with CCP's new found love for its customers we might see some changes... and then again we probably won't.
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Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
70
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Posted - 2011.11.09 23:00:00 -
[11] - Quote
Esan Vartesa wrote:
I think you just successfully explained why the whole bailout fiasco was the biggest scam ever perpetrated on the human race.
Second biggest scam. The bigger scam was creating the debt based money that allowed it to happen in the first place. That system has been stealing wealth for a very long time.
Want to buy a gallon of gasoline? $3.50 in the USA, or you can use a silver dime. |
The Antiquarian
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
95
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Posted - 2011.11.09 23:26:00 -
[12] - Quote
My sincere apologies for being blunt, but the economy in EVE Online is far from being perfect and it is not reflective of the current situation of the real economy and vice versa.
You can try to extrapolate the real world economy into EVE's, but it doesn't work the other way and even an attempt to do so... does not make any sense.
Why would you think it would've made sense to apply EVE economics to real world economics? The real world economics is far more efficient than the pathetic economy we have now in EVE Online.
It is a wasted effort and your corp mates were right to do so, to block your "effort." Probably the time could've been better used in mining or something =) |
Maia Demoncast
The Tuskers
0
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Posted - 2011.11.09 23:52:00 -
[13] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Esan Vartesa wrote:
I think you just successfully explained why the whole bailout fiasco was the biggest scam ever perpetrated on the human race.
Second biggest scam. The bigger scam was creating the debt based money that allowed it to happen in the first place. That system has been stealing wealth for a very long time. Want to buy a gallon of gasoline? $3.50 in the USA, or you can use a silver dime.
Revert back to the Gold Standard!
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Atomik Harmonik
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2011.11.10 00:26:00 -
[14] - Quote
Maia Demoncast wrote:Cyniac wrote:You forgot to mention the banks... when was the last time you saw anything even vaguely resembling a bank in EVE? Well given what the banks on Earth are doing, Eve banks are pretty much the same thing :P
Phaser Inc was just like ***** Mae and Freddie Mac...or Goldman Sachs or Indymac Bank, or ... [insert bank name here]
Except in Eve, the 'bank' owner of Phaser Inc didn't just buy favors or control CCP like the banks do with politicians now, such as Soros and company. |
Brent Newton
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2011.11.10 00:32:00 -
[15] - Quote
Whoa, I didn't expect any response to this. Gonna take me a minute to answer all this. Yeah I guess that eve isn't really comparative to the real world economically. But I have always thought that eve uses "interesting ways to manage inflation. Like starter corp tax and skill book cost.
Ok, so you've won me over on the argument that there is no real correlation between eve and real life economics. But that was my only "in". I can't very well post in an eve forum without some tie to eve. Can I? I respect the eve community over most for having what few ppl have these days; dedication and intelligence. I've neglected the forum aspect of eve for years now and I just thought I'd give it a try. Seems a rather lively bunch for a forum.
Very funny Maia. What was going through their heads? Any time I think a person is stupid for making a given choice I try to always think of an overt way that seemingly stupid decision may have benefit them. Not sure how bankrupting the entire world helps anyone but maybe you guys do.
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Brent Newton
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2011.11.10 00:36:00 -
[16] - Quote
Wouldn't the rich be against inflation even more than the average person? I mean it effects them to a greater degree than it effects me, but all the evidence suggests that they actually promote what the FED does to artificially stabilize the economy.
If I were going to correlate the real world to eve I'd start by matching the US FED with CCP, but in eve ofc you must have an artificial mechanic for keeping markets stable, or at least it is the easiest most sure fire method. |
Brent Newton
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.10 00:47:00 -
[17] - Quote
Sorry about the reply chain here, but I'm playing catch up.
Can you really blame the mega rich or the gov officials for taking advantage of the system to make themselves even more rich? Ofc it is not moral or w/e, but be honest you see a chance to steal a million dollars and get away scott free, you don't take it? Most ppl would bend their morality in extreme cases such as these and I'm sure the gov never expected all the laws that layed the path to this nonsensical world we live in today to actually be passed. But they were, and here we are.
I am an American and though I know that America is not the center of the world, I think in this instance it kinda is. I fully believe that America is 100% responsible for the state of the world economy being in the **** state it is, and I'm astounded that the other countries would allow it. I don't have a job ofc, so I spend countless hours watching online news, and I must be missing something, because there is no way on earth that my view of this madness can be correct. I'm far from a nice guy myself, but fuckin billions of ppl out of their future seems wrong to me. Color me an unpatriotic American I guess. |
Tasko Pal
Spallated Garniferous Schist
14
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Posted - 2011.11.10 01:39:00 -
[18] - Quote
Brent Newton wrote:Wouldn't the rich be against inflation even more than the average person? I mean it effects them to a greater degree than it effects me
I disagree. Inflation favors borrowers and the rich can borrow for investment purposes. They also have riskier investments (most of their money isn't in savings accounts which often don't beat inflation). I figure the modern rich favor steady economic growth with modest inflation as a result. |
The Antiquarian
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
95
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Posted - 2011.11.10 02:06:00 -
[19] - Quote
Brent Newton wrote:Sorry about the reply chain here, but I'm playing catch up.
Can you really blame the mega rich or the gov officials for taking advantage of the system to make themselves even more rich? Ofc it is not moral or w/e, but be honest you see a chance to steal a million dollars and get away scott free, you don't take it? Most ppl would bend their morality in extreme cases such as these and I'm sure the gov never expected all the laws that layed the path to this nonsensical world we live in today to actually be passed. But they were, and here we are.
I am an American and though I know that America is not the center of the world, I think in this instance it kinda is. I fully believe that America is 100% responsible for the state of the world economy being in the **** state it is, and I'm astounded that the other countries would allow it. I don't have a job ofc, so I spend countless hours watching online news, and I must be missing something, because there is no way on earth that my view of this madness can be correct. I'm far from a nice guy myself, but fuckin billions of ppl out of their future seems wrong to me. Color me an unpatriotic American I guess.
It's noble that you try to address the current economic crisis and the erosion of the U.S.'s market confidence relative to the other markets, but I sincerely believe that EVE Online Market Discussion forum is not the best place to discuss such complicated issue. First of all, MMOs tend to have a large congruence of low income to medium income players and that introduces significant element of biases. Second, success in EVE market in no way, correlates to success in real world. The mechanisms behind EVE market's success is COMPLETELY INCOMPARABLE to how the actual markets function. You can't just simply relate CCP as the Fed and vice versa because their roles are completely different.
You did mention that you are currently unemployed. I suggest that instead of trying to find a solution to the world problems from EVE Online, get an MBA or PHD from a reputable educational institutions and try to make a difference from there.
EVE Online's Market Discussion forum is not a place to talk about the actual economy. |
Wyke Mossari
Staner Industries
12
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Posted - 2011.11.10 11:46:00 -
[20] - Quote
The Antiquarian wrote:
EVE Online's Market Discussion forum is not a place to talk about the actual economy.
I agree, any the similarity between the New Eden economy and RL is cursory.
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Brent Newton
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2011.11.10 15:52:00 -
[21] - Quote
Yeah, I agree with the sentiment that there is no correlation. I find that a heuristic approach to life and learning suits my unique personality best. It is startling how often seemingly totally unconnected subjects share analogous parts.
I think the low to medium class person is precisely the type person these topics should be discussed with. After all they are the not only the bedrock of our current "civilized" world, but the foundation and the supports. As to whether eve is the right forum to voice these thought... probably not. But if ppl respond, why not. I'm new to this forum. If I'm breaking some rule(s), I'll of course refrain from posting this type of discussion in the future.
Like I said I value the Eve communities thoughts on things. What the median Eve player lacks in finance they more than make up for in intellect. |
Lauren Hellfury
Full Pocket Aggro
In Vitro.
24
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Posted - 2011.11.10 16:04:00 -
[22] - Quote
Brent Newton wrote:Yeah, I agree with the sentiment that there is no correlation. I find that a heuristic approach to life and learning suits my unique personality best. It is startling how often seemingly totally unconnected subjects share analogous parts.
I think the low to medium class person is precisely the type person these topics should be discussed with. After all they are the not only the bedrock of our current "civilized" world, but the foundation and the supports. As to whether eve is the right forum to voice these thought... probably not. But if ppl respond, why not. I'm new to this forum. If I'm breaking some rule(s), I'll of course refrain from posting this type of discussion in the future.
Like I said I value the Eve communities thoughts on things. What the median Eve player lacks in finance they more than make up for in intellect.
I think I should feel insulted by at least one part of this, but i'm not sure which.  |
Shar Tegral
11
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Posted - 2011.11.10 16:41:00 -
[23] - Quote
Brent Newton wrote:If I'm breaking some rule(s), I'll of course refrain from posting this type of discussion in the future. You are not breaking any rules mate.
There are many analogous situations between Real Life and Eve but I think the simple truth behind it is that there are many idiots in Eve like there are many idiots in Real Life. In addition, we all do enough idiotic things on our own to fill in for any absentee idiots.
But discussing the correlations is not against any rules as long as you keep "politics" out of it.
(Politics can run you afoul of moderators.) |
Esan Vartesa
Samarkand Financial
39
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Posted - 2011.11.10 17:00:00 -
[24] - Quote
The Antiquarian wrote:It's noble that you try to address the current economic crisis and the erosion of the U.S.'s market confidence relative to the other markets, but I sincerely believe that EVE Online Market Discussion forum is not the best place to discuss such complicated issue. First of all, MMOs tend to have a large congruence of low income to medium income players and that introduces significant element of biases. Second, success in EVE market in no way, correlates to success in real world. The mechanisms behind EVE market's success is COMPLETELY INCOMPARABLE to how the actual markets function. You can't just simply relate CCP as the Fed and vice versa because their roles are completely different.
You did mention that you are currently unemployed. I suggest that instead of trying to find a solution to the world problems from EVE Online, get an MBA or PHD from a reputable educational institutions and try to make a difference from there.
EVE Online's Market Discussion forum is not a place to talk about the actual economy.
I disagree on most of your stances above. If MD is a place to discuss the market dynamics of New Eden, then sharing thoughts on the real world economy and discussing how certain elements of that system may or may not relate to the admittedly grossly simplified system we have in our game can have real value. Second, the WORLD tends to have a large congruence of low income to medium income participants; if anything, the population of Eve Online is actually skewed in the opposite direction of your suggestion. Also, I would be willing to wager that there is a strong correlation between "success" in both systems, though the fact that in Eve we are all born immortal elites on a perfectly even footing with each other in terms of opportunities and freedoms does make things far easier on people in the game.
Your suggestion that someone who is unemployed should go get an MBA or PhD rather than discuss these topics is revealing of your own lack of understanding of that last bit. Unlike in Eve Online, not everyone has such opportunities.
tl;dr
There is only ever one reason for an individual to tell another individual that they should not discuss a particular topic.
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Tasko Pal
Spallated Garniferous Schist
14
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Posted - 2011.11.12 17:15:00 -
[25] - Quote
For me the funny part was the implication that you should get an advanced economics degree in order to "make a difference". The majority of economists are professional propagandists. They make a difference for the people who sign their paychecks. That's rather irrelevant to shooting the breeze about economic similarities between Eve and the real world.
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Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
74
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Posted - 2011.11.12 18:00:00 -
[26] - Quote
"It is no crime to be ignorant of economics, which is, after all, a specialized discipline and one that most people consider to be a 'dismal science.' But it is totally irresponsible to have a loud and vociferous opinion on economic subjects while remaining in this state of ignorance. "
- Murray Rothbard |
Callduron
7
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Posted - 2011.11.12 21:04:00 -
[27] - Quote
Simon Ludgate's Gamasutra article on Faucets might be a good place to start vis-a-vis the differences between real world economies and MMO economies. There are quite a lot of crucial differences.
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/6437/the_fwords_of_mmos_faucets.php?print=1 |
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