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Two thoughts about CCP and new players

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Happydayz	Posted - 2006.04.04 14:15:00 - [91] Edited by: Happydayz on 04/04/2006 14:15:55 One thing that people are forgetting is that CCP already thinks that newbies need a leg up, and has already in fact implemented changes to address this. The new blooodlines offer starting characters better then the ones previously available. You can start off with Gunnery V, or get the alchura alt with balanced stats and the ideal level of charisma for non-leadership specialists. The real question at hand is whether further help is needed to help ease/encourage the transition from trial account to subscriber, or if these bloodlines are enough
Gariuys	Posted - 2006.04.04 14:15:00 - [92] Edited by: Gariuys on 04/04/2006 14:16:17 Originally by: Remedial No, because the newbie has to train 40 skills before he can fly all the ships that you currently can while you're working on BC IV or V. Halfing his training time is more important to him than it is to you because you can already do many things in the game that he can't. OMG the newbie has to train skills to fly the same ships a fecking 3 year old vet can? Oh no, what is EVE coming to. I've seen the light, you're right. Newbies got it so bad now. And Quurst, wanna show me where CCP says adv. learning was supposed to give newbies a advantage... please. ( yeah I feel like wasting the guys time, more usefull then his posts in this thread ) ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
Sir Juri	Posted - 2006.04.04 14:16:00 - [93] nah man you get it all messed up. You train learnin skils you gain attributes, that cuts trainin time. That is progress for me. It's in ya head man! Im a noob, bear with me :P
Gariuys	Posted - 2006.04.04 14:18:00 - [94] Originally by: Happydayz Edited by: Happydayz on 04/04/2006 14:15:55 One thing that people are forgetting is that CCP already thinks that newbies need a leg up, and has already in fact implemented changes to address this. The new blooodlines offer starting characters better then the ones previously available. You can start off with Gunnery V, or get the alchura alt with balanced stats and the ideal level of charisma for non-leadership specialists. The real question at hand is whether further help is needed to help ease/encourage the transition from trial account to subscriber, or if these bloodlines are enough Gunnery V was a freaking bug. And Brutor is almost as good as Achura. ( and trade/mission skills two very common ways of earning cash are much harder to train on achura, so that's balance right there ) ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
Laythun	Posted - 2006.04.04 14:19:00 - [95] Originally by: Happydayz Edited by: Happydayz on 04/04/2006 14:15:55 One thing that people are forgetting is that CCP already thinks that newbies need a leg up, and has already in fact implemented changes to address this. The new blooodlines offer starting characters better then the ones previously available. You can start off with Gunnery V, or get the alchura alt with balanced stats and the ideal level of charisma for non-leadership specialists. The real question at hand is whether further help is needed to help ease/encourage the transition from trial account to subscriber, or if these bloodlines are enough so new players already have higher base attributes than any older player could have prayed for. i think thats enough. they dont need a leg up with learning skills too --------------------------------------------- If im flaming or not contributing im sorry, but im trying to get into th [23]
Pussygalore	Posted - 2006.04.04 14:21:00 - [96] This is just silly all these peeps saying it a good thing are all alts just stop now WE ALL HAD TO TRAIN THEM SOME TIME OR ANOTHER!!! dont you think vets should get some thing for sticking round 3 years ?
Remedial	Posted - 2006.04.04 14:21:00 - [97] Originally by: Laythun so new players already have higher base attributes than any older player could have prayed for. i think thats enough. they dont need a leg up with learning skills too Huh? What new player has higher base attributes than an old player? All bloodlines have the same X starting attribute points divided into the different attributes in different proportions, but they all add up to the same X.
Mr Qz	Posted - 2006.04.04 14:21:00 - [98] Originally by: Quurst Originally by: Mr Qz Originally by: Stahlregen Originally by: Laythun Originally by: Quurst CCP wanted special treatment for new players, so they released the skills. What? that really dont make sense I can understand what hes saying. Here ill spell it out for you. The advanced learning was originaly introduced for new players so they could get thier skills up quicker however there was a unintended side effect, The side effect was cutting them off from training other useful stuff that would let them advance through the game and instead lock them into this 6 week wait until they had the learning skills done before they could on to something else. that side effect is in your head! oooo.. I have to train electronics lvl4 oh no! I cant train gunner at the same time wee! but wait learning "aint optional", all other skills are if I mine its "optional" to train mining skills!? step away for a sec and "think2! Is it so hard to understand learning skills are a different beast than all other skills? Yes, they're on the same page in the game, but that's it. It's intended to give an edge to new players and it does that. It also adds an unnecessary waiting period before you can start using the skill system like old players can: training for usefull stuff like electronics V. Because that adds 5% cpu, omg actual progress. its in your HEAD! YOU get FASTER traineing!!!! thats not "unnecessary waiting period"! chuckles***
Jenny Spitfire	Posted - 2006.04.04 14:24:00 - [99] Narf this thread? ---------------- RecruitMe@NOINT!
Stahlregen	Posted - 2006.04.04 14:26:00 - [100] Originally by: Mr Qz Originally by: Stahlregen Originally by: Laythun Originally by: Quurst CCP wanted special treatment for new players, so they released the skills. What? that really dont make sense I can understand what hes saying. Here ill spell it out for you. The advanced learning was originaly introduced for new players so they could get thier skills up quicker however there was a unintended side effect, The side effect was cutting them off from training other useful stuff that would let them advance through the game and instead lock them into this 6 week wait until they had the learning skills done before they could on to something else. that side effect is in your head! oooo.. I have to train electronics lvl4 oh no! I cant train gunner at the same time wee! but wait learning "aint optional", all other skills are if I mine its "optional" to train mining skills!? step away for a sec and "think2! not really man, Because you need advanced learning to get anything done yet there is no immediate reward for it, it only pays off months down the road, where as if you train electronics you are rewarded by being able to fly cov ops or by being able to mine with the mining skills. "Don't worry, My friend is just admiring the shape of your skull-throne."

Pussygalore	Posted - 2006.04.04 14:28:00 - [101] only bad will come of this for goons, ur making your corp look bad ALTASTIC drawing to much attention to your selfs only brings pirate war decks
Mr Qz	Posted - 2006.04.04 14:29:00 - [102] bah* who cares. WTF IF it change GIVE ME BACK MY SP! need to alt somewhare someplace not here now!!! bye chuckles***
Gariuys	Posted - 2006.04.04 14:36:00 - [103] Originally by: Stahlregen Edited by: Stahlregen on 04/04/2006 14:29:01 Originally by: Mr Qz Originally by: Stahlregen Originally by: Laythun Originally by: Quurst CCP wanted special treatment for new players, so they released the skills. What? that really dont make sense I can understand what hes saying. Here ill spell it out for you. The advanced learning was originaly introduced for new players so they could get thier skills up quicker however there was a unintended side effect, The side effect was cutting them off from training other useful stuff that would let them advance through the game and instead lock them into this 6 week wait until they had the learning skills done before they could on to something else. that side effect is in your head! oooo.. I have to train electronics lvl4 oh no! I cant train gunner at the same time wee! but wait learning "aint optional", all other skills are if I mine its "optional" to train mining skills!? step away for a sec and "think2! Well good luck when the incoming players begin to slow down and eve stagnates, I cant see the game going anywhere if that happens. Multi account vets > the couple of newbies that can't get the fact that learning skills to adv. 4 right off the bat isn't the only way too play the game. And I don't see any signs of stagnation. Just constantly incrasing growth. ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
Ahop Yol	Posted - 2006.04.04 14:41:00 - [104] Why did I know this was going to include something about learning skills..... ffs no no no no NO! It's not going to change and it's already been discussed to death, they are optional, noobies dont HAVE to do ANYTHING. I'm a year old in game and although I may not be a noob in the eyes of lots of noobs, I certainly feel like one when pitched against a character with 3 years of experience and skills under his belt. So what's CCP going to do for me about this? Nothing....and I don't expect them to either. Yes I grinded for 2 months early on to get my learning skills but that was my choice.
Pussygalore	Posted - 2006.04.04 14:44:00 - [105] Well said that man
Ilya Murametz	Posted - 2006.04.04 14:46:00 - [106] Originally by: ***galore This is just silly all these peeps saying it a good thing are all alts just stop now WE ALL HAD TO TRAIN THEM SOME TIME OR ANOTHER!!! dont you think vets should get some thing for sticking round 3 years ? Amen... Took lots of hours and lots of work....and even more time for me to get 40mill+ skill points in almost of 3 years of playings. More than have of that time with no Adanced learning! no implants! Just working away.. earining ISK for skills, LOL and you crying cause you have to go through same thing. I never say this but... that is just lame. Life is ***, and then you marry one so get use to it and get there the same way we old pilots did! P.S. Let me try this tactic (/start sarcasm) Hot Damn you CCP you unfair, mean mean people, I've been here for hot damn near 3 hot damn years I DemanD! 1...no wait 2.. well, 5 Caldari Titans to be delivered into my hangar NOW, oh and same for my other Veteran friends. OR you will lose all your veteran core players!! (/end sarcasm) If anyone requies a Straw, i always keep some in stock, contact me in private if one required. They're very awsome for SUCKING IT UP
Laythun	Posted - 2006.04.04 14:46:00 - [107] Originally by: Ahop Yol Why did I know this was going to include something about learning skills..... ffs no no no no NO! It's not going to change and it's already been discussed to death, they are optional, noobies dont HAVE to do ANYTHING. I'm a year old in game and although I may not be a noob in the eyes of lots of noobs, I certainly feel like one when pitched against a character with 3 years of experience and skills under his belt. So what's CCP going to do for me about this? Nothing....and I don't expect them to either. Yes I grinded for 2 months early on to get my learning skills but that was my choice. QFT --------------------------------------------- If im flaming or not contributing im sorry, but im trying to get into th [23]
Pussygalore	Posted - 2006.04.04 15:03:00 - [108] Edited by: ***galore on 04/04/2006 15:04:25 Edited by: ***galore on 04/04/2006 15:03:51 Plus you forget were training skills that take 20-30 days each so we dont see any benefit for that time scale and then only a very small % we had no af,hac,faction ship,tech2,officer loot,half the ore, i could go on and on as was once said in a song " uve got it good you dont know how good uve got it "
Ahop Yol	Posted - 2006.04.04 15:11:00 - [109] Also worth noting, it takes approximately 1/5th of the time to become 80% proficient at something than it does for 100% So it's not like it's THAT bad really. Specialization is teh win! (I just wish I had specialized a bit more)
Trilliam Blackthorn	Posted - 2006.04.04 16:33:00 - [110] Perhaps a solution woudl be to tie the learning skills to the primary/secondary attributes the other skills rely on. For example, if a skill requires Intelligence/memory, for each level in that skill completed, a value would be added to the requirement for the appropriate learning skills. Once you reach a certain threshold, the learning skill increases a level, adding a point to the appropriate attibute. The would solve a couple of things (IMHO). First, it would get noobs into training more immediately useful skills right away. Second, it would allow their skill training ability to slowly "accelerate" the more time they spend training other skills. Just an idea...

Subotai Turanga	Posted - 2006.04.04 16:37:00 - [111] Originally by: Gariuys Gunnery V was a freaking bug. Yep, it's such a bug that I just created a Gunnery V Khanid 10 seconds ago. The only Khanid bug was the fact that they occasionally started with 0 skills, using half-truths and rumors to try and further your non-existent argument isn't really going to work.
Bigoleed	Posted - 2006.04.04 16:52:00 - [112] All you long time players really are acting a bit immature..are you so incapable of putting yourself in a new players shoes? Let's face it..low sec and 0.0 are the places people want to be...yet..when most of us go for a romp..to explore..remember we are new to the game and most non-pvp corps do not want us..gee? wonder why? cause we cant do anything cept die maybe? cough, I digress...um...so yeah as soon as we go into low sec we are confronted by 3 year vets with BS's and 30-50 million skill points..think we have a chance to even challenge them? no we die its not fun..because its being wtfbbq'd due to length of time in game. end of story...pvp games should not be based on length of time playing or phat lewts pharmed. So..anyway...new players shouldnt be able to challenge vets right away..but waiting 6 months toa year to have a chance? I think not. Please save the specialize...and join a blob speach...nobody should be pinholed to playing how others want them to play..remeber eve is unique in its open endedness. Personally I see nothing worong with new players having mission type of career rewards..such as getting gunnery 5 and frigate 5 to reward a new toon doing some career missions. Im 3 months in and done with learning and some basic skills to at least do lvl 2 missions...I have at least 6 months to go to fly what I want and be able to compete agaisnt someone chosing the same path....9 months to start being able to pvp ...it's close to laughable.
Zysco	Posted - 2006.04.04 16:56:00 - [113] Edited by: Zysco on 04/04/2006 16:59:53 Originally by: Gariuys And I don't see any signs of stagnation. Just constantly incrasing growth. Lol I loved it when people use "oh noes if you dont change this eve will lose subscribers and die!" as an argument. People have been using that for years. Originally by: Bigoleed All you long time players really are acting a bit immature..are you so incapable of putting yourself in a new players shoes? Let's face it..low sec and 0.0 are the places people want to be...yet..when most of us go for a romp..to explore..remember we are new to the game and most non-pvp corps do not want us..gee? wonder why? cause we cant do anything cept die maybe? cough, I digress...um...so yeah as soon as we go into low sec we are confronted by 3 year vets with BS's and 30-50 million skill points..think we have a chance to even challenge them? no we die its not fun..because its being wtfbbq'd due to length of time in game. end of story...pvp games should not be based on length of time playing or phat lewts pharmed. I know my corp would love to have 50 noob suicide tacklers, so you are wrong, sorry. And how do learning skills help you get to 0.0 quicker? All you really need to be a accepted into a "pvp corp" is to fly an inty and tackle. Its much quicker to train frig 4->5, evasive 1->5, high speed manuevering, and propulsion jamming than it is to train learning skills to 5. Why not train pvp skills to fly an inty, start pvping in 0.0, and then train learnings? No wait its easier to whine. www.eve-files.com/media/corp/onos/petincsig.JPG[/IMG] Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 kbs, ty - Cortes
Remedial	Posted - 2006.04.04 16:59:00 - [114] Originally by: Ilya Murametz (/start sarcasm) Hot Damn you CCP you unfair, mean mean people, I've been here for hot damn near 3 hot damn years I DemanD! 1...no wait 2.. well, 5 Caldari Titans to be delivered into my hangar NOW, oh and same for my other Veteran friends. OR you will lose all your veteran core players!! (/end sarcasm) If anyone requies a Straw, i always keep some in stock, contact me in private if one required. They're very awsome for SUCKING IT UP I'd just like to point out that anyone who posts this kind of drivel isn't contributing to the thread other than to scream ME TOO. You could at least quote and reply to an argument, or make an argument that doesn't have LOL NOOB in it someplace. Or you know, use logic. How does starting new players with basic learning skills equal giving advanced players five titans again?
Ominus Decre	Posted - 2006.04.04 17:00:00 - [115] Originally by: Trac3rt "Frankly, the newbie experiance in this game is terrible..." "A lot of us tried Eve and quit before the trial ran out because the newbie experiance is absolutely appaling and doesn't even try to introduce the player to what Eve is really about." "They are then taken straight out of Empire, into 0.0, and introduced to the world of politics/alliances/wars/territory/PvP/etc which is not mentioned to the average newbie at all. They then realise how awesome Eve can be, and decide to stay." "The problem with being new is that there are so many skills you want to train, and at some point you have to simply stop and say "Ok, I am goign to take 6 weeks out and get my advanced learning done". This time is horrible, because I am not advancing my character in any way, but simply reducing the time it will take to advance my character in the future." "The problem is that nobody wants to train advanced learning, but you need to have it for the long term development of your character. It doesn't matter if you do it immediately, or 6 weeks into your characters life, you need to do it at some point or another because once it is done you can catch up to where you would be if you didn't train it in a few months." It's undeniable that the "newb" experiance in EVE has been painfully grueling at best. While it's easy to point at the system of pathing, or lack of, I find it very difficult to understand how a new player "MUST" train learning skills all the way through advanced. Anyone can be as successful if they stair-step the progress. One thing Goonfleethas working for it are the sheer numbers of players who have experianced the game to it's fullest. This knowledge should be better utilized to capture those prospected players trying the 14-Day Free Trial. As another poster commented, they find it more beneficial to gradually progress into the learning skills rather then, as quoted, spending 6 weeks doing it. I had also done this and feel like I have _NOT_ forfeited any progress and actually gained experiance and access to the environment. I am one of "those" players who adovcate gradual progress rather then the rush to an end game as seen in games with grinding; ala World of Warcraft, a game where everything is based upon grinding. The Destroyer is a prime example. Some players jump into them ASAP then loose them. This happens with cruisers too. Even though it's accesible early on it truely is an advacned ship and is overlooked. I use them all the time and had waded through the high number of posts that "destys r teh suk" and even recieved nice little tells "wtf r u going 2 do 2 me in that ship????" to have them pOp! I am no-where an expert at anything let-alone EVE. One thing I am confident to profess is the process to maximize "fun" is a relevant case where each speciman needs to be anaylized to determine if they should go on vaction for weeks at a time to gain learning skills or play the game and advacne through casuality. You can become EXTREMELY sucessfull _without_ maxing learning skills. Goonfleet may want to rethink their retention strategy if they are having issues. Instead of telling players "you need to" they might want an approach more along the lines of "Alternate Methods of Advancing Within EVE".
nahtoh	Posted - 2006.04.04 17:04:00 - [116] Originally by: Quurst Originally by: Laythun Originally by: Krulla Personally, I think letting newbies start with some of the essential skills at level 2 or 3 wouldn't hurt anyone, and would make life for newbies a lot easier. what i dont understand is why? whyt do u want to make life easier? did not the difficulty shape u as a player? Read the OP, to retain more new EVE players. As it is now, the game forces everyone to sit out a few weeks without making any progress. If you cut that out, new players can get faster to making real decisions about how they're spending their SP. Why insist on making it unnecessarily boring for newbies? Read this...the compelex nature and open ended gameplay is why I am still here...and every time one of these threads starts there are as many posters if not more that have this viewpoint. Eve is a compelex harsh game...get over it. ========= "I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem fix its self
Naleb Cilani	Posted - 2006.04.04 17:08:00 - [117] Originally by: Bigoleed 9 months to start being able to pvp ...it's close to laughable. Where did you get number from? You can pvp 3 months into the game and most of that 3 months is building up your own infrastructure to support your inevitable loses. Quote: Please save the specialize...and join a blob speach...nobody should be pinholed to playing how others want them to play..remeber eve is unique in its open endedness. Why not specialize? You think someone with spread out piloting skills in a battleship should do well versus someone who focused in primary battleship and secondary support skills? Quote: if the repeatedly stated (not by players mind you) rules of the game don't agree with your "vision" of what this game ought to be... get lost.
nahtoh	Posted - 2006.04.04 17:15:00 - [118] Originally by: Stahlregen Well good luck when the incoming players begin to slow down and eve stagnates, I cant see the game going anywhere if that happens. Its not slowing down , its speeding up... Eve is not to everybodys taste understand this fact and accept it... ========= "I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem fix its self
Raven Aure	Posted - 2006.04.04 17:16:00 - [119] Originally by: Ann Mari Search function on forums: Forums can be a library filled with info and experience. Without a search function it's just a repetitive whine blog. I don't even think you can call it a forum without a proper search function. EVE-Online Search EVE Search (c/o EVE-Files) OR search using Google and add "site:eve-online.com" to your search criteria. ______________________ "Ahh, Raven Aure. Your reputation precedes you." "Uh oh. Which one?"
Crackhead Bob	Posted - 2006.04.04 17:21:00 - [120] I kinda remember a certain Dev with a heavy accent in Vegas this year dismiss threads of this kind where people suggest things that would "drive up sales..."



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