How about making ships require more minerals? And/or making all belts require scanning down first.

yeah I'm not new...

I was talking more about the fact that if you have 2 groups, one that can defend themselves, another who can't...

Of course miners can defend themselves. Why would you think they can't?

Don't really need goon trolls here.

Defence while mining: Don't go afk, stay in motion aligned towards something, even a bookmark you have made. It will be like magic how you somehow never die. As for the rewards? D: That sucks.

I'm not a miner (but we have all mined at least once), but I have to ask, how do you stay in motion if you have more than one asteroid targeted? Do you just orbit the center rock?

Nuh uh. I don't think one should make more than the other, but I do think mining should make more than it does now! I have no idea how they could fix this besides magically removing all the bots though! Maybe Once an asteroid is depleted it has a chance to drop a super dense core that can be refined into a large amount of minerals of your choice! Asteroids in highsec drop rarely!

Well, Mr. Rising,

You're right, I don't roam in a hulk. I'm partial to battle-badgers . In all seriousness though, I have done a bit of pew pew in industrial-oriented ships. You're right in saying that they're not ideal for it ... but when has a merchant vessel *EVER* been an ideal platform against ganks? (see: WWII and the German U-boat wolfpacks for RL example).

You're also right that not *everyone* is part of a large organisation -- but how many SMALL organisations (especially mining/industry) live in a given system/constellation, hm?

10 small (10-man) organisations have just as many people as that single 100-man organisation ... it just takes a little more :effort: to get them working together...

yeah I'm not new...

I was talking more about the fact that if you have 2 groups, one that can defend themselves, another who can't... They both go out into the same system and make money, don't you think just from a gameplay point of view that the guy who can't defend himself and is totally geared towards making money should make more than the guy in the combat ship ?

Just as a general principle?

Not groups of people. Two groups of activities. One activity yields decent ISK/hour, can be performed in a decent ship, and interfaces well skill-wise with other areas (say, combat). Second activity gives poor returns, is done in a ship which dies if someone looks at you the wrong way, and requires months of training which do not benefit anything outside said activity.

Yet every day hundreds and hundreds of people consciously choose the second one.

WHY!?

That's your reason why mining is so pitiful in terms of ISK. Because people are for some strange reason still willing to do it for the little ISK to be made. EVE is a player-driven economy. This means that as long as there are people willing to mine at 15 MISK/hour, mining will make you 15 MISK per hour. If they instead of whining on the forums started doing something else, the supply of "cheap" minerals would soon be exhausted, and the value of minerals - and the profit from mining - would increase.

Not groups of people. Two groups of activities. One activity yields decent ISK/hour, can be performed in a decent ship, and interfaces well skill-wise with other areas (say, combat). Second activity gives poor returns, is done in a ship which dies if someone looks at you the wrong way, and requires months of training which do not benefit anything outside said activity.

Yet every day hundreds and hundreds of people consciously choose the second one.

WHY!?

That's your reason why mining is so pitiful in terms of ISK. Because people are for some strange reason still willing to do it for the little ISK to be made. EVE is a player-driven economy. This means that as long as there are people willing to mine at 15 MISK/hour, mining will make you 15 MISK per hour. If they instead of whining on the forums started doing something else, the supply of "cheap" minerals would soon be exhausted, and the value of minerals - and the profit from mining - would increase.

Look the point of that part of the conversation is that mining ships are less combat able than combat ships - derrr. So therefore there should be some compensation for the risk involved as opposed to what ratters have to manage.

Large organisations by definition are better defended than small ones (safety in numbers - for the peanut gallery once again). However, many people prefer a smaller organisation in which to play for various reasons ranging from not just being a number, to being able to pvp with small gangs rather than large.

Keeping things the same might be well and good for many people who have independant incomes in game - it might even be better for ccp - I notice the prices of plexes only rises.

However, it doesn't make for a good mining experience.

Many of us take a more holistic view of our time online. We extrapolate upon our actions with regard to the butterfly effect. It makes us feel better to be mining rather than ratting/missioning. Knowing the minerals we collect are used for this or that, or even creating those new products ourselves and selling those in specific areas of the game to help our respective corps/alliances.

It would be nice to have the risk rewarded, rather than having the extra risk we take on by flying mining vessels poopoo'd by CCP and the peanut gallery/trolls.

This was the point of the conversation.

I totally agree that increasing yield is not the answer.
Increasing minerals required for ships is not the answer.
Having belts only be able to be scanned down rather than static belts might help for a while, but I dare say the botting programs would adapt ?

Possibly a mix of these approaches might help ?

Look the point of that part of the conversation is that mining ships are less combat able than combat ships - derrr. So therefore there should be some compensation for the risk involved as opposed to what ratters have to manage.

Mining is still the red headed stepchild of the ugly 2 headed stripper you were really drunk and slept with once ?

So I go out in a t1 bc even and can rat for hours with drops and salvage bringing in twice (at least) as much in cash. I can defend myself at least reasonbly well.

Mining I can't defend myself and bring in half as much ?

That about sum it up ?

I'd really love to see that 2007 or whatever it was update to industry we were supposed to get but got sidetracked.

I keep hearing that there are alot of mining bots, but does anyone really have any proof that they exist?

Even if there are mining bots, do they contribute to a significant part of the mineral supply and affect the price?

Or perhaps a better question, if botting does exist and/or is hard to get rid of, why mine at all? Why not just set up a bot when you arent around (Yes, besides the fact that I know, you arent supposed to)?

Not groups of people. Two groups of activities. One activity yields decent ISK/hour, can be performed in a decent ship, and interfaces well skill-wise with other areas (say, combat). Second activity gives poor returns, is done in a ship which dies if someone looks at you the wrong way, and requires months of training which do not benefit anything outside said activity.

Yet every day hundreds and hundreds of people consciously choose the second one.

WHY!?

That's your reason why mining is so pitiful in terms of ISK. Because people are for some strange reason still willing to do it for the little ISK to be made. EVE is a player-driven economy. This means that as long as there are people willing to mine at 15 MISK/hour, mining will make you 15 MISK per hour. If they instead of whining on the forums started doing something else, the supply of "cheap" minerals would soon be exhausted, and the value of minerals - and the profit from mining - would increase.